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CWood21
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
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Location: 'Merica
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 Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| kethnaab wrote: | well
1. Disagree. He has better feet than anyone we've had at the position
2. Jarron Gilbert was a crappy defensive tackle. What makes you think he can play LT? 
3. Ta'amu isn't tall, he's about 6'2, and if anyone can teach him how to take on a double team, it's John Mitchell. Therefore, he will be. nyah!!! |
1.) Than that speaks volumes about your offensive lineman than if Adams has the best feet. He was underwhelming at Ohio State, and gets beaten by speed rushers far too easily. He's going to get overwhelmed if he can't get his arms on the opposing pass rusher.
2.) That was a Freudian slip, I mean Marcus Gilbert, which I would have assumed you knew what I was talking about. And Steelers fans can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Steelers' plan is to move Gilbert to LT and have Mike Adams be their RT.
3.) Where are you getting 6'2" from? He measured in at 6024, not the 6'2" you claim him to be. When you get to be much bigger than 6'2", you really start running the risk of the player being too tall to anchor against double teams. Low center of gravity is imperative for success from 3-4 nose tackles, and the list of 6'3" nose tackles that are really good nose tackles isn't very long. You might get a decent one, but not the great one that can make 3-4 defenses play at a high level. And that still doesn't change the fact that he plays taller and is pretty bad when he gets double teamed. I stand by my stance that he's a penetrating UT in a 4-3 NT's body.
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CWood21
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| goldfishwars wrote: | | So Gosselin is lying in his article then? There doesn't seem to be much in the way of conjecture - each pick is described matter-of-factly, so I can only assume he has discussed the war room events directly with Jerry or someone close. |
It's pure conjecture at this point. It's not like he was sitting inside the Cowboys War Room when the Cowboys were picking. And it's clearly a well written article. Speculation is never a great thing when writing something you're trying to get people to read. That's why opinion articles aren't really seen in newspapers, people want the facts given to them.
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| iPwn wrote: | | If I was going to blow $2,600 on a night of fun, the last thing I would be thinking to do was play skee ball. |
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Mudderfudder77
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding the Bears drafting of Shea McClellin:
| CWood21 wrote: | | I just don't think he's stout enough at the POA to hold up as an end in the Bears 4-3 defense |
Lovie Smith isn't looking for 'stout run stopper' out of his DE's. They need to be quick and play with leverage. He'll have one-gap, and as Lovie Smith himself has said - 260 is plenty big enough to do that.
Considering the relative lightweights Lovie has played at DE - I think McClellin would fit right in with Ogunleye, A Brown, M Anderson and L Little.
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CWood21
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| goldfishwars wrote: | | The Vikings coaching staff fell in love with him during the Senior Bowl, I don't think they were taking a Safety just because it was a weak class - they genuinely liked the guy. |
Even then, if he really is that high on the Vikings board that says a LOT about what they think about this year's draft class. And you don't take guys just because you love him. Hell, I'm sure there were players that Bill Belichick and Ted Thompson really, really liked but weren't going to take them higher than the board said they should. You have to stick to your board, and something tells me that didn't happen with Harrison Smith. Not to mention, I don't see the value in drafting a safety in the first that doesn't project to be a great safety.
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| iPwn wrote: | | If I was going to blow $2,600 on a night of fun, the last thing I would be thinking to do was play skee ball. |
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CWood21
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
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Location: 'Merica
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Mudderfudder77 wrote: | Regarding the Bears drafting of Shea McClellin:
| CWood21 wrote: | | I just don't think he's stout enough at the POA to hold up as an end in the Bears 4-3 defense |
Lovie Smith isn't looking for 'stout run stopper' out of his DE's. They need to be quick and play with leverage. He'll have one-gap, and as Lovie Smith himself has said - 260 is plenty big enough to do that.
Considering the relative lightweights Lovie has played at DE - I think McClellin would fit right in with Ogunleye, A Brown, M Anderson and L Little. |
And how is Lovie Smith's track record with defensive ends drafted that were supposedly great fits for the Bears D? Aside from the flash in the pan in his rookie year, Mark Anderson turned out to be nothing more than a situational pass rusher who seemed to find his niche in the Patriots 3-4 defense last year. Dan Bazuin was an epically bad pick. Henry Melton had a pretty decent season opposite of Peppers, but clearly not good enough since the Bears already drafted his replacement. And Corey Wootton has done nothing so far. Not exactly a great track record. I really do think the Bears picked McClellin out of fear that he'd turn into another Clay Matthews with the Packers. Instead, they passed on superior defensive end prospects for a player who didn't even have a consensus about which position he'd be best at.
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Mudderfudder77
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| CWood21 wrote: | | goldfishwars wrote: | | So Gosselin is lying in his article then? There doesn't seem to be much in the way of conjecture - each pick is described matter-of-factly, so I can only assume he has discussed the war room events directly with Jerry or someone close. |
It's pure conjecture at this point. It's not like he was sitting inside the Cowboys War Room when the Cowboys were picking. And it's clearly a well written article. Speculation is never a great thing when writing something you're trying to get people to read. That's why opinion articles aren't really seen in newspapers, people want the facts given to them. |
Gosselin has a level of access to teams war-rooms that most sports journalists would die for. A scout who posts on another forum said that each year his GM would give Gosselin the names of 3 or 4 players they were looking at in the first few rounds - including their top ranked players in each group.
I don't know whether this is speculation on Gosselin's part - but if any writer had access to the inner-workings of the Cowboys draft room in the fourth round it would have been him. Wouldn't surprise me at all if he knew exactly who the Cowboys were targeting.
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Mudderfudder77
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| CWood21 wrote: | | Mudderfudder77 wrote: | Regarding the Bears drafting of Shea McClellin:
| CWood21 wrote: | | I just don't think he's stout enough at the POA to hold up as an end in the Bears 4-3 defense |
Lovie Smith isn't looking for 'stout run stopper' out of his DE's. They need to be quick and play with leverage. He'll have one-gap, and as Lovie Smith himself has said - 260 is plenty big enough to do that.
Considering the relative lightweights Lovie has played at DE - I think McClellin would fit right in with Ogunleye, A Brown, M Anderson and L Little. |
And how is Lovie Smith's track record with defensive ends drafted that were supposedly great fits for the Bears D? Aside from the flash in the pan in his rookie year, Mark Anderson turned out to be nothing more than a situational pass rusher who seemed to find his niche in the Patriots 3-4 defense last year. Dan Bazuin was an epically bad pick. Henry Melton had a pretty decent season opposite of Peppers, but clearly not good enough since the Bears already drafted his replacement. And Corey Wootton has done nothing so far. Not exactly a great track record. I really do think the Bears picked McClellin out of fear that he'd turn into another Clay Matthews with the Packers. Instead, they passed on superior defensive end prospects for a player who didn't even have a consensus about which position he'd be best at. |
Well - first off Lovie Smith isn't the GM - Jerry Angelo was. I doubt Lovie could have spelled Bazuins name, let alone scouted him throughout the year like Jerry apparently did. We fired the guy who drafted Bazuin - and the only thing he and McClellin have in common is their shade of skin color.
Second, Henry Melton plays DT for the Bears. And he was a 4th round pick.
Third - Corey Wooten was a fourth round pick who was coming off an exploded ACL.
Lastly - I don't think Emery cares about who GB might draft. If anything - the criticism of him is that he is a slave to his board and rankings.
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CWood21
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
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Location: 'Merica
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Mudderfudder77 wrote: | Gosselin has a level of access to teams war-rooms that most sports journalists would die for. A scout who posts on another forum said that each year his GM would give Gosselin the names of 3 or 4 players they were looking at in the first few rounds - including their top ranked players in each group.
I don't know whether this is speculation on Gosselin's part - but if any writer had access to the inner-workings of the Cowboys draft room in the fourth round it would have been him. Wouldn't surprise me at all if he knew exactly who the Cowboys were targeting. |
LIS, Rich Gosselin is one of the most informed writers I've gotten to read, but remember he wasn't following the draft like he had in the past. Somehow I find it hard to believe he's that plugged into the Cowboys, not to mention I doubt that Jerry Jones is really going to leak to a well-known writer like Gosselin about the Cowboys draft day musings. I can see a scout sending off a few names about who they are considering with their first round pick, but not the fourth round. Not to mention, other teams do this with false players in order to try and get other teams to take those players and have the players they really want to fall. It'd be like the Packers telling the writers they want Courtney Upshaw when in reality they wanted Nick Perry. And reading the article again, it sounds like even more conjecture. He talked about tight end being a need, and with Jason Witten as a primary receiving tight end they probably needed a blocking tight end to balance him. Neither Orson Charles or Adrien Robinson are as good as Ellison blocking. Sounds like trying to connect dots that aren't there.
Maybe he does know what's going on in the Cowboys draft room, but I've got a tough time believing it.
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| iPwn wrote: | | If I was going to blow $2,600 on a night of fun, the last thing I would be thinking to do was play skee ball. |
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CWood21
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Mudderfudder77 wrote: | Well - first off Lovie Smith isn't the GM - Jerry Angelo was. I doubt Lovie could have spelled Bazuins name, let alone scouted him throughout the year like Jerry apparently did. We fired the guy who drafted Bazuin - and the only thing he and McClellin have in common is their shade of skin color.
Second, Henry Melton plays DT for the Bears. And he was a 4th round pick.
Third - Corey Wooten was a fourth round pick who was coming off an exploded ACL.
Lastly - I don't think Emery cares about who GB might draft. If anything - the criticism of him is that he is a slave to his board and rankings. |
If you're head coach and GM aren't on the same page come draft day, you're not going to see those two working together for long. Part of the problem is evaluating the talent, but an even bigger portion (and largely unnoticed part) is the developing of the player. It doesn't matter how good your scouting department is, if your coaching staff can't maximize the players talents or put them in a position to succeed they're going to bust. I know Melton plays defensive tackle now, but he was closer to defensive end sized when he was drafted. And even prior to blowing out his knee, it wasn't exactly like Wootton was a huge part of the Bears DE rotation.
Not saying it was the only factor, but I think it had to weigh in Emery's mind. Prior to the Bears, he was with the Chiefs where the draft history had mixed results. McClellin still was an odd pick by the Bears, and anyone who didn't have a horse in this race seemed to say the same thing.
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| iPwn wrote: | | If I was going to blow $2,600 on a night of fun, the last thing I would be thinking to do was play skee ball. |
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kethnaab
Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 6994
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| CWood21 wrote: | | kethnaab wrote: | well
1. Disagree. He has better feet than anyone we've had at the position
2. Jarron Gilbert was a crappy defensive tackle. What makes you think he can play LT?
3. Ta'amu isn't tall, he's about 6'2, and if anyone can teach him how to take on a double team, it's John Mitchell. Therefore, he will be. nyah!!! |
1.) Than that speaks volumes about your offensive lineman.
duh?? Think about the team we're talking about
2.) That was a Freudian slip, I mean Marcus Gilbert, which I would have assumed you knew what I was talking about. And Steelers fans can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Steelers' plan is to move Gilbert to LT and have Mike Adams be their RT.
I was kidding man, I even stuck a smiley in there, I knew exactly what you meant, especially since I've made the same mistake myself. Ryan Kalil was the first offensive lineman drafted this year, Geoff Schwartz got drafted by the Bro2wns in the 2nd, etc...
as for Gilbert, the original plan was to move him to LT, which would've been a disaster. That was also before we grabbed Adams, who has been at LT exclusively thus far in rookie camp. Not saying he won't switch. Steelers may do that after all.
3.) Where are you getting 6'2" from? He measured in at 6024, not the 6'2" you claim him to be.
uh...that's 1/2" man. not that big of a deal
When you get to be much bigger than 6'2", you really start running the risk of the player being too tall to anchor against double teams. Low center of gravity is imperative for success from 3-4 nose tackles, and the list of 6'3" nose tackles that are really good nose tackles isn't very long. You might get a decent one, but not the great one that can make 3-4 defenses play at a high level. And that still doesn't change the fact that he plays taller and is pretty bad when he gets double teamed. I stand by my stance that he's a penetrating UT in a 4-3 NT's body. |
and I stand by my stance that although he was a penetrating 4-3 UT in a 3-4 NTs body during college, he won't be within 2 years.
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Ward4HOF
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| CWood21 wrote: | | goldfishwars wrote: | | The Vikings coaching staff fell in love with him during the Senior Bowl, I don't think they were taking a Safety just because it was a weak class - they genuinely liked the guy. |
Even then, if he really is that high on the Vikings board that says a LOT about what they think about this year's draft class. And you don't take guys just because you love him. Hell, I'm sure there were players that Bill Belichick and Ted Thompson really, really liked but weren't going to take them higher than the board said they should. You have to stick to your board, and something tells me that didn't happen with Harrison Smith. Not to mention, I don't see the value in drafting a safety in the first that doesn't project to be a great safety. |
Sorry, had to point this out because it's funny. You probably should have chosen a better example than Bill Belichick in your argument, seeing that he took a 7th Rd S prospect in the 2nd Rd. 
That's all I wanted to point out, have no opinion one way or the other on you all's debate.
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goldfishwars
Joined: 27 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| CWood21 wrote: | | goldfishwars wrote: | | The Vikings coaching staff fell in love with him during the Senior Bowl, I don't think they were taking a Safety just because it was a weak class - they genuinely liked the guy. |
Even then, if he really is that high on the Vikings board that says a LOT about what they think about this year's draft class. And you don't take guys just because you love him. Hell, I'm sure there were players that Bill Belichick and Ted Thompson really, really liked but weren't going to take them higher than the board said they should. You have to stick to your board, and something tells me that didn't happen with Harrison Smith. Not to mention, I don't see the value in drafting a safety in the first that doesn't project to be a great safety. |
Funny you should mention, the reason why they traded back in is because they thought he would be gone by the time they next pick. Seems fair enough to me.
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CWood21
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| Ward4HOF wrote: | Sorry, had to point this out because it's funny. You probably should have chosen a better example than Bill Belichick in your argument, seeing that he took a 7th Rd S prospect in the 2nd Rd.
That's all I wanted to point out, have no opinion one way or the other on you all's debate. |
Tavon Wilson wasn't a seventh round prospect. He was one I heard about late, and got a chance to watch. He's a bit of a project but the skills are there to be a solid safety and he's got extra value as a special teams player. Came out of nowhere late, but definitely not a seventh round talent.
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| iPwn wrote: | | If I was going to blow $2,600 on a night of fun, the last thing I would be thinking to do was play skee ball. |
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Ward4HOF
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| CWood21 wrote: | | Ward4HOF wrote: | Sorry, had to point this out because it's funny. You probably should have chosen a better example than Bill Belichick in your argument, seeing that he took a 7th Rd S prospect in the 2nd Rd.
That's all I wanted to point out, have no opinion one way or the other on you all's debate. |
Tavon Wilson wasn't a seventh round prospect. He was one I heard about late, and got a chance to watch. He's a bit of a project but the skills are there to be a solid safety and he's got extra value as a special teams player. Came out of nowhere late, but definitely not a seventh round talent. |
Well, he didn't come out of nowhere late on Mayock, Kiper, heck, choose any major draft site you want, but he certainly was not a 2nd rd prospect. You want to say 4th or 5th, then fine, but definitely not 2nd...
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Kellerman
Joined: 16 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| CWood21 wrote: | | goldfishwars wrote: | | The Vikings coaching staff fell in love with him during the Senior Bowl, I don't think they were taking a Safety just because it was a weak class - they genuinely liked the guy. |
Even then, if he really is that high on the Vikings board that says a LOT about what they think about this year's draft class. And you don't take guys just because you love him. Hell, I'm sure there were players that Bill Belichick and Ted Thompson really, really liked but weren't going to take them higher than the board said they should. You have to stick to your board, and something tells me that didn't happen with Harrison Smith. Not to mention, I don't see the value in drafting a safety in the first that doesn't project to be a great safety. |
In the Vikings' defense, they didn't really have a lot of options. They literally have no starting safeties on the roster, and that cost us more than one game last year (like the Denver game). I wasn't that high on Harrison Smith, but I can live with the pick. You have to balance yourself between need and BPA, in the case of teams like the Packers, it's easier to go BPA more than need. I think the Vikings balanced it out fairly combining BPA/need at times (Kalil, Robinson, Childs), going a bit more for need (Smith, Walsh) at other times. Overall, I couldn't imagine any other prospect the Vikings would have benefitted more from in that early 2nd round area than Smith. We got our WR later, no nose tackles, wouldn't want a linebacker that high, got our CB in the third, in the end it all fell pretty well for us.
If you take the trade up in conjunction with the picks gained from the Kalil trade, you make two moves that overall net you more picks, and still get you the guy you wanted.
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