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Lombardi Gras
Joined: 01 Mar 2010
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 Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Essentially what you're implying is that speed doesn't matter, and that Nick Toon will be just as good of a deep threat as Meachem was. That is false.
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tylerdouglass
Joined: 21 Dec 2009
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Location: Bellingham, WA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Raves wrote: | | tylerdouglass wrote: | | Toon is Lance Moore, in Devery Hendersons body. I still like the pick. I had him much higher than a late 4th round pick. |
Toon isn't as consistent catching the ball as Moore is, but that is a good comparison. . |
No he's not. I meant to say Toon is a Lance Moore type player, in Devery Henderson's body. From what I saw on some highlights, Toon is still a very physical receiver.
I agree though, I would've liked to go secondary or o-line with that pick, but I'm still happy with this great value pick.
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Raves
Joined: 03 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Lombardi Gras wrote: | | Raves wrote: | | Lombardi Gras wrote: | | Raves wrote: | | Lombardi Gras wrote: | | Why replace Meachem with a guy who runs a 4.54? We could use some more speed, not another possession guy. I think he's a good prospect, but not for us. |
I think he might run a 4.5 but he did also run a 4.4 at his pro day, and he does play faster than his time. Also is that .2 of a second going to really make that big of a difference overall? Granted lower than a 4.5 shows a lack of explosiveness but he's got good speed overall.
That' being said, I still wish we would've went with a defensive player or offensive line. |
In a league where a step is the difference between beating your defender, or not, yes that .2 makes a difference. Like I said, I do think he will be a solid player, but he is not the type of player we need. |
That .2/step only comes into play when you are running unobstructed and a DB doesn't play position properly. Now don't get me wrong a 4.3 guy is great, but I don't think that overall it makes as much difference as people seem to think. It really comes down to more the 10 and 20 yard split times as well as the cone/shuttle drills. Those tell you more about their explosiveness and ability to make plays.
Wes Welker is a 4.6 guy at the combine, would you rather have him or Robert Meachem? |
1) There are always exceptions to the rule.
2) Nick Toon does not compare to Wes Welker. |
Lance Moore is a 4.5 guy. Who would you rather we have?
I'm pretty sure I can go through and find more just to prove a point. The difference between 4.5 and 4.3 isn't as big of a deal as some make it out to be. If that 4.5 guy that use his body well, break a tackle or two, catch jump balls, and use good double moves etc to get open, it doesn't matter if he's a 4.3 or a 4.5 guy 90% of the time.
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2011 Stats:
Malcolm Jenkins - 78 Tackles, 1 Sack, 1 FF, 9 PD, 1 FRTD
Jimmy Graham - 99 catches, 1310 yards, 11 TD |
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tylerdouglass
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Lombardi Gras
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for enlightening me that route running is an essential part of being a wide receiver 
You know, it's possible for players to have speed and still be a good route runners, as well as players to be 'slow' and not be good route runners. Clearly, if I know that the speed receiver we would have hypothetically taken would not comprehend the intricacies of route running, I would prefer someone who does. However, you don't want too many of the same type of player. We currently have one deep threat (in terms of speed), and I don't consider him that good (Devery Henderson). Speed can be used in more than one way. If a defense is afraid of being burned, it brings defenders to that player. They are called decoys. When we lack variety in terms of strengths on our offense, it makes things easier for defenses to gameplan. What happens if Devery gets hurt? Who is going to be the decoy deep threat?
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whodatworm23
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Bottom line is that Loomis stayed true to his board... Toon is an absoulte steal at 122! Had it not been for injuries, Toon would have been a 2nd round pick.
Toon has great size, plays physical, is faster in pads than he is without them, possesses some of the surest hands in the draft and coming out of Wisconsin he's one of the best blocking recivers that was in the draft.
Also Toon was widley considered one of the best route runners available in the draft.
If I were to compare Toon to our current recievers... his build is like that of Colston (just 2 inches shorter), he's quick out of his cuts similar to Moore, His straight line speed is like that of Arrington and his blocking is comparable to that of Robert Meachem (who we lost to Chargers so replacing his blocking was important).
Will Toon be a canadite for rookie of the year... NO
Will he be considered a steal one day down the line... YES
MY OPINION!
WHODAT
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Lombardi Gras
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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No one is arguing that the 40 time is the be-all-end-all in terms of game speed. I am saying that we would have been better served with someone who could stretch the field and add a bit of variety to the skill sets of our wide receivers.
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tylerdouglass
Joined: 21 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Lombardi Gras wrote: | | Who is going to be the decoy deep threat? |
Joe Morgan.
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Harper41
Joined: 29 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Lombardi Gras wrote: | | No one is arguing that the 40 time is the be-all-end-all in terms of game speed. I am saying that we would have been better served with someone who could stretch the field and add a bit of variety to the skill sets of our wide receivers. |
Toon can stretch the field, he's great at judging the ball in the air and coming down with jump balls.
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Lombardi Gras
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| tylerdouglass wrote: | | Lombardi Gras wrote: | | Who is going to be the decoy deep threat? |
Joe Morgan. |
How many receivers are we keeping on the roster?
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tylerdouglass
Joined: 21 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Lombardi Gras wrote: | | tylerdouglass wrote: | | Lombardi Gras wrote: | | Who is going to be the decoy deep threat? |
Joe Morgan. |
How many receivers are we keeping on the roster? |
Well if Devery goes down for an extended time, then he'll be on IR. If it's not a long time, then we'll get by without him.
Toon is just marginally less of a deep threat than Henderson, his sure hands make up for the slightly slower 40-time.
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Last edited by tylerdouglass on Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lombardi Gras
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Harper41 wrote: | | Lombardi Gras wrote: | | No one is arguing that the 40 time is the be-all-end-all in terms of game speed. I am saying that we would have been better served with someone who could stretch the field and add a bit of variety to the skill sets of our wide receivers. |
Toon can stretch the field, he's great at judging the ball in the air and coming down with jump balls. |
So is Colston. So is Jimmy Graham. They are not deep threats in the sense I am talking about. Any player can become a 'deep threat' in what you are talking about. Sub-par players make catches down the field all the time. It's not that special. This does not mean that they should be labelled as deep threats.
Games where Drew Brees doesn't have a lot of time, speed is essential in a receiver. I don't know why I am arguing this. This is pretty basic knowledge and y'all seem to think I am flawed in my reasoning. For about the third time, I think Toon will turn into a solid player, but if we were going to go wide receiver, I think it should be apparent that someone who adds something new, something dynamic, to the offense should have been the pick.
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Raves
Joined: 03 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Lombardi Gras wrote: | | Harper41 wrote: | | Lombardi Gras wrote: | | No one is arguing that the 40 time is the be-all-end-all in terms of game speed. I am saying that we would have been better served with someone who could stretch the field and add a bit of variety to the skill sets of our wide receivers. |
Toon can stretch the field, he's great at judging the ball in the air and coming down with jump balls. |
So is Colston. So is Jimmy Graham. They are not deep threats in the sense I am talking about. Any player can become a 'deep threat' in what you are talking about. Sub-par players make catches down the field all the time. It's not that special. This does not mean that they should be labelled as deep threats.
Games where Drew Brees doesn't have a lot of time, speed is essential in a receiver. I don't know why I am arguing this. This is pretty basic knowledge and y'all seem to think I am flawed in my reasoning. For about the third time, I think Toon will turn into a solid player, but if we were going to go wide receiver, I think it should be apparent that someone who adds something new, something dynamic, to the offense should have been the pick. |
If Brees doesn't have a lot of time I would hope we started running draws or using quick hitters to Moore and Toon who will make the first guy miss/break the tackle and get extra yards. You're more likely to get the ball picked if you try going deep with little time to throw unless you guy a guy like Andre Johnson or Megatron catching the ball.
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2011 Stats:
Malcolm Jenkins - 78 Tackles, 1 Sack, 1 FF, 9 PD, 1 FRTD
Jimmy Graham - 99 catches, 1310 yards, 11 TD |
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Lombardi Gras
Joined: 01 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| tylerdouglass wrote: | | Lombardi Gras wrote: | | tylerdouglass wrote: | | Lombardi Gras wrote: | | Who is going to be the decoy deep threat? |
Joe Morgan. |
How many receivers are we keeping on the roster? |
Well if Devery goes down for an extended time, then he'll be on IR. If it's not a long time, then we'll get by without him.
Toon is just marginally less of a deep threat than Henderson, his sure hands make up for the slower 40-time. |
What is your reasoning for that? How can you say that Toon is marginally less of a deep threat than Henderson? He has not stepped on an NFL field and they are entirely different types of players. Toon is not known for burning players or big plays. He has an average of 14.5 yards per catch in college. Those numbers are inflated by 2 games in which he played one against New England and one against Michigan State. He normally averages roughly 11 yards per game. Those are not the marks of someone who is known for getting behind defenses.
I am clearly not going to convince y'all that I am right. So, I am done. I don't have time to go back and forth on something that will go nowhere.
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tylerdouglass
Joined: 21 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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It's not like there were DeSean Jackson and Mike Wallace type guys left on the board, out of the next 10 WR prospects, there is only 1 player who is faster than Toon. Everyone else is +/- .05 seconds.
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