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| GRADE? |
| A |
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18% |
[ 3 ] |
| B |
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50% |
[ 8 ] |
| C |
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18% |
[ 3 ] |
| D |
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12% |
[ 2 ] |
| F |
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0% |
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| Total Votes : 16 |
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The_Slamman
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 11669
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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 Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:57 pm Post subject: GRADE THE DRAFT: TEs |
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Next up are the TEs. There were 16 WRs drafted and 14 OGs drafted since Jimmy Johnson. The next highest position drafted was the TE position. Here is the list of TEs
1. Kendell Watkins-
2. Eric Bjornson
3. David LaFleur
4. Rodrick Monroe
5. Mike Lucky
6. Bob Slowikowski
7. Jason Witten
8. Sean Ryan
9. Anthony Fasano
10. Martellus Bennett
11. John Phillips
12. James Hanna
Bold indicates players drafted in the first 3 rounds. Here we have a position where the organization has spent multiple premium picks at the position over the years. How RELIABLE has the organization been at replenishing the position through the draft?
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Quote from May 7, 2013...
| MaddHatter wrote: | | Brian Price is still as talented as he ever was. |
On May 9th, 2013, Brian Price was waived by the Dallas Cowboys. |
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The_Slamman
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 11669
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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BTW, I'll say it again... Please grade the organization by how well they replenished the position through the draft without consideration of what picks were used to replenish the position. UNLESS, you took that into account previously (even thougn nobody was supposed to). So, here, NYFDB's, T_O7's and MH's grades should be lower because the organization has spent so many high draft picks on the position to only have one pan out. According to those guys, the epic failures of Watkins, LaFluer, Fasano, and Bennett would weigh down the positive result of Witten. Just be consistent in your voting.
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Quote from May 7, 2013...
| MaddHatter wrote: | | Brian Price is still as talented as he ever was. |
On May 9th, 2013, Brian Price was waived by the Dallas Cowboys. |
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Texas_OutLaw7
Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 19402
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of '12
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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From 1994 - 1996 (two seasons)
Jay Novacek, starting TE.
From 1996 - 1997 (two seasons)
Eric Bjornson, Starting TE.
1998 - 2000 (Three seasons)
David LaFleur, Starting TE.
2001
Jackie Harris, Starting TE.
2002
Tony McGee, Starting TE.
2003
Dan (the Man) Campbell, Starting TE.
2004 - Now
Jason Witten.
2001 and 2002 we had a pretty bad unit at TE. The rest of the years we either had someone amazing or someone decent. LaFleur never lived up to his 1st round pick draft status, but he was a serviceable player.
I would have given us an A in this round, only in recent years we have really tried to push the whole two-TE-system. And we haven't found someone really able to slide into that role. The best has been Bennett because he has been such an exceptional blocker - but also an idiot of the highest order.
So to answer your question as to how well the well Dallas has done? I'd say pretty damn good. Aside from 3 years where we had FA assist, we have had decades of in-house talent arise. I give it a B though, because of the failure of the two-TE system. It's a high B. But still a B.
My memory may be a little hazy, but all but Bob Slowikowski and Rodrick Monroe made a contribution if I recall correctly.
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Texas_OutLaw7
Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 19402
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of '12
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Slamman wrote: | | BTW, I'll say it again... Please grade the organization by how well they replenished the position through the draft without consideration of what picks were used to replenish the position. UNLESS, you took that into account previously (even thougn nobody was supposed to). So, here, NYFDB's, T_O7's and MH's grades should be lower because the organization has spent so many high draft picks on the position to only have one pan out. According to those guys, the epic failures of Watkins, LaFluer, Fasano, and Bennett would weigh down the positive result of Witten. Just be consistent in your voting. |
Thank you, Slam.
Here is the thing. I don't mind the organization spending a pick on a player to see if they will work out - even if we already have some elite or good player listed. You need to churn the roster. You need to cultivate competition. None of that is a bad thing. When you look at it in a microcosm and ignore all other factors, it really takes a major hit. But when you piece together the whole picture, it is much clearer.
You asked..."How RELIABLE has the organization been at replenishing the position through the draft?" Well...aside from 3 years, we had in-house talent. Not all of them were HOFers. But most were above average to good. And, as I have stated before, it is impossible to just build through the draft. I for instance loved Dan Campbell. And was very sad when he got injured and Jason took over. Glad I was wrong, though.
Dallas had two poor years of a TE starting in well over a decade.
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plan9misfit
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 18012
Location: RIP: B2TB, T14, & S.A. We miss you.
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Texas_OutLaw7 wrote: | From 1994 - 1996 (two seasons)
Jay Novacek, starting TE.
From 1996 - 1997 (two seasons)
Eric Bjornson, Starting TE.
1998 - 2000 (Three seasons)
David LaFleur, Starting TE.
2001
Jackie Harris, Starting TE.
2002
Tony McGee, Starting TE.
2003
Dan (the Man) Campbell, Starting TE.
2004 - Now
Jason Witten.
2001 and 2002 we had a pretty bad unit at TE. The rest of the years we either had someone amazing or someone decent. LaFleur never lived up to his 1st round pick draft status, but he was a serviceable player.
I would have given us an A in this round, only in recent years we have really tried to push the whole two-TE-system. And we haven't found someone really able to slide into that role. The best has been Bennett because he has been such an exceptional blocker - but also an idiot of the highest order.
So to answer your question as to how well the well Dallas has done? I'd say pretty damn good. Aside from 3 years where we had FA assist, we have had decades of in-house talent arise. I give it a B though, because of the failure of the two-TE system. It's a high B. But still a B.
My memory may be a little hazy, but all but Bob Slowikowski and Rodrick Monroe made a contribution if I recall correctly. |
T_O7, I have to call BS on that grade. Most of the players you listed weren't drafted by the Cowboys. Heck, Novacek wasn't even drafted by us. The Cardinals drafted him. The thread is to grade Jerry on the TEs we drafted, not the TEs who played for us, so you can't possibly base your grade on Novacek, Campbell, Harris, or McGee.
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| The_Slamman wrote: | | It's like we are in a win now mentality with lose now personnel. |
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WizardHawk
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 6969
Location: Hawkeye State
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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1. Kendell Watkins- F
2. Eric Bjornson - D
3. David LaFleur - D
4. Rodrick Monroe - F
5. Mike Lucky - D
6. Bob Slowikowski - F
7. Jason Witten - A
8. Sean Ryan - C
9. Anthony Fasano - C
10. Martellus Bennett - C
11. John Phillips - C
12. James Hanna - C
17/12 = 1.4 [D]
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Nextyearfordaboyz
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Posts: 16211
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Slamman wrote: | | BTW, I'll say it again... Please grade the organization by how well they replenished the position through the draft without consideration of what picks were used to replenish the position. UNLESS, you took that into account previously (even thougn nobody was supposed to). So, here, NYFDB's, T_O7's and MH's grades should be lower because the organization has spent so many high draft picks on the position to only have one pan out. According to those guys, the epic failures of Watkins, LaFluer, Fasano, and Bennett would weigh down the positive result of Witten. Just be consistent in your voting. |
I haven't graded a single one of these polls.
But since you love semantics, I would argue that there was absolutely no need to "replenish" the talent at tight end ever since Witten became a Cowboy. The tight end position has been overflowing with a Hall of Famer for nearly a decade. No need to "replenish".
That said, there have been resources obviously wasted at the position, and recently at that. Haven't done a good job at TE outside of Witten.
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The_Slamman
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 11669
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Nextyearfordaboyz wrote: | | The_Slamman wrote: | | BTW, I'll say it again... Please grade the organization by how well they replenished the position through the draft without consideration of what picks were used to replenish the position. UNLESS, you took that into account previously (even thougn nobody was supposed to). So, here, NYFDB's, T_O7's and MH's grades should be lower because the organization has spent so many high draft picks on the position to only have one pan out. According to those guys, the epic failures of Watkins, LaFluer, Fasano, and Bennett would weigh down the positive result of Witten. Just be consistent in your voting. |
I haven't graded a single one of these polls.
But since you love semantics, I would argue that there was absolutely no need to "replenish" the talent at tight end ever since Witten became a Cowboy. The tight end position has been overflowing with a Hall of Famer for nearly a decade. No need to "replenish".
That said, there have been resources obviously wasted at the position, and recently at that. Haven't done a good job at TE outside of Witten. |
Wow. NYFDB, you kinda shocked me here. I think that was an honest response and I think you are right on both accounts.
_________________
Quote from May 7, 2013...
| MaddHatter wrote: | | Brian Price is still as talented as he ever was. |
On May 9th, 2013, Brian Price was waived by the Dallas Cowboys. |
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The_Slamman
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 11669
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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To keep the discussion moving here... what does everybody think about NYFDB opinion that premium picks were used on TEs despite having one of the best ones in the game??? Obviously, in hindsight, it's easy to say we don't like the Fasano and Bennett picks because they never lived up to the pick. So, I'm not talking about that... I'm talking about whether resources were wasted at the TE position that "should" have been used elsewhere because we had a great, young TE at the time Bennett and Fasano were drafted?
Or, should we give Parcells/Garrett some credit for being early on in the TE revolution??? We see what the Pats did this year. Perhaps, Garrett and BP realized earlier than most what a dual threat TE offense could do. If Bennett became our Jermichael Finley or Daniel Graham... everybody probably would have loved the pick.
I think both points could be argued here.
_________________
Quote from May 7, 2013...
| MaddHatter wrote: | | Brian Price is still as talented as he ever was. |
On May 9th, 2013, Brian Price was waived by the Dallas Cowboys. |
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Dboys88-82
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Posts: 1675
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Slamman wrote: | To keep the discussion moving here... what does everybody think about NYFDB opinion that premium picks were used on TEs despite having one of the best ones in the game??? Obviously, in hindsight, it's easy to say we don't like the Fasano and Bennett picks because they never lived up to the pick. So, I'm not talking about that... I'm talking about whether resources were wasted at the TE position that "should" have been used elsewhere because we had a great, young TE at the time Bennett and Fasano were drafted?
Or, should we give Parcells/Garrett some credit for being early on in the TE revolution??? We see what the Pats did this year. Perhaps, Garrett and BP realized earlier than most what a dual threat TE offense could do. If Bennett became our Jermichael Finley or Daniel Graham... everybody probably would have loved the pick.
I think both points could be argued here. |
I am mostly OK with it. We can look at it now and say wow Fasano and Bennett were not worth second rounders...but if they had lived up to their potential (specifically Bennet) they would be making great contributions to this team and very few people would be complaining about them.
Im also OK with it, because for awhile there we were using a lot of two tight end sets. I could be wrong, but for awhile there I think they were trying to accomplish what the Patriots ended up getting with Gronk/hernandez while also having great blockers at those positions.
Another reason why I am OK with it is that while we have been blessed with great health from Witten over the years...you cant rely on that happening every year. If he went down our offense would change entirely. If we had a guy with similar abilities to come in and take over...maybe, just maybe we could continue running the offense we had been up to that point.
Obviously we havent been able to find a guy like I am describing and looking at it that way we think well it would be really nice to have used those picks on a O-linemen, OLB, DE/NT, Safety....or about any other position of "need." But if the picks had panned out like the front office expected I dont think any of us would be complaining.
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Nextyearfordaboyz
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Posts: 16211
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Slamman wrote: | To keep the discussion moving here... what does everybody think about NYFDB opinion that premium picks were used on TEs despite having one of the best ones in the game??? Obviously, in hindsight, it's easy to say we don't like the Fasano and Bennett picks because they never lived up to the pick. So, I'm not talking about that... I'm talking about whether resources were wasted at the TE position that "should" have been used elsewhere because we had a great, young TE at the time Bennett and Fasano were drafted?
Or, should we give Parcells/Garrett some credit for being early on in the TE revolution??? We see what the Pats did this year. Perhaps, Garrett and BP realized earlier than most what a dual threat TE offense could do. If Bennett became our Jermichael Finley or Daniel Graham... everybody probably would have loved the pick.
I think both points could be argued here. |
I never had much of a problem with trying to find a 2nd TE. One dominant TE can be a matchup nightmare for most teams. Two dominant ones can be downright unstoppable, as we've seen in New England. I don't think anyone would complain if we had drafted Jermichael Finley instead of Martellus Bennett.
But when you have a guy like Jason Witten, I don't think you can spend two 2nd round picks on guys you aren't very confident in. If it's a 6th round pick like with Hanna, ok. But a second rounder needs to add a definite element to the team.
There were scouting issues with Fasano and Bennett. To miss on both of them was unacceptable.
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Texas_OutLaw7
Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 19402
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of '12
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| plan9misfit wrote: |
T_O7, I have to call BS on that grade. Most of the players you listed weren't drafted by the Cowboys. Heck, Novacek wasn't even drafted by us. The Cardinals drafted him. The thread is to grade Jerry on the TEs we drafted, not the TEs who played for us, so you can't possibly base your grade on Novacek, Campbell, Harris, or McGee. |
The question asks how Jerry has replenished the position via draft. What I was showing is who our starter was at the time the years Slam has asked. Given that at times we did have a talented player (not that does not mean all star) at the position, we did not need to replenish often. I never once stated that all those players were drafted by us. In fact, I said so in my post. I ignored Novacek since he was here before 94.
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The price of progress is trusting the process.
Heart. Leadership. Passion. Will. |
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The_Slamman
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 11669
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Nextyearfordaboyz wrote: | | The_Slamman wrote: | To keep the discussion moving here... what does everybody think about NYFDB opinion that premium picks were used on TEs despite having one of the best ones in the game??? Obviously, in hindsight, it's easy to say we don't like the Fasano and Bennett picks because they never lived up to the pick. So, I'm not talking about that... I'm talking about whether resources were wasted at the TE position that "should" have been used elsewhere because we had a great, young TE at the time Bennett and Fasano were drafted?
Or, should we give Parcells/Garrett some credit for being early on in the TE revolution??? We see what the Pats did this year. Perhaps, Garrett and BP realized earlier than most what a dual threat TE offense could do. If Bennett became our Jermichael Finley or Daniel Graham... everybody probably would have loved the pick.
I think both points could be argued here. |
I never had much of a problem with trying to find a 2nd TE. One dominant TE can be a matchup nightmare for most teams. Two dominant ones can be downright unstoppable, as we've seen in New England. I don't think anyone would complain if we had drafted Jermichael Finley instead of Martellus Bennett.
But when you have a guy like Jason Witten, I don't think you can spend two 2nd round picks on guys you aren't very confident in. If it's a 6th round pick like with Hanna, ok. But a second rounder needs to add a definite element to the team.
There were scouting issues with Fasano and Bennett. To miss on both of them was unacceptable. |
Personally, I saw Fasano as a relatively "safe" pick. You will probably recall that I hated that draft because the organization completely ignored the OL (bledsoe was just sacked 50 times that season, etc). But, I didn't think Fasano was nearly as questionable as Bennett. Bennett was clearly a boom or bust pick. The athletic ability to boom. The maturity level to bust. Fasano had a good head on his shoulder and was a solid talent. He's been fairly productive in Miami despite not having great QBs throwing him the ball. Probably, he was a little too similar to Witten to really make it work. Bennett was deverse enough to make it work he just never "got it." Obviously, I didn't think either were a need at the time and would have preferred OL help rather than TE help both years.
_________________
Quote from May 7, 2013...
| MaddHatter wrote: | | Brian Price is still as talented as he ever was. |
On May 9th, 2013, Brian Price was waived by the Dallas Cowboys. |
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Texas_OutLaw7
Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 19402
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of '12
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Slamman wrote: | To keep the discussion moving here... what does everybody think about NYFDB opinion that premium picks were used on TEs despite having one of the best ones in the game??? Obviously, in hindsight, it's easy to say we don't like the Fasano and Bennett picks because they never lived up to the pick. So, I'm not talking about that... I'm talking about whether resources were wasted at the TE position that "should" have been used elsewhere because we had a great, young TE at the time Bennett and Fasano were drafted?
Or, should we give Parcells/Garrett some credit for being early on in the TE revolution??? We see what the Pats did this year. Perhaps, Garrett and BP realized earlier than most what a dual threat TE offense could do. If Bennett became our Jermichael Finley or Daniel Graham... everybody probably would have loved the pick.
I think both points could be argued here. |
I don't mind trying to create new wrinkles in the offense, had it been as effective as NE, we all would have been thrilled. But it wasn't. I would have preferred we select a TE in later rounds, and use the second or third on someone else. At the same token, we are awful at drafting in the second round. Just a gut feeling, but I feel we have missed more in the second than we have in any other round.
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In Redball I Trust!
The price of progress is trusting the process.
Heart. Leadership. Passion. Will. |
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The_Slamman
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 11669
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Texas_OutLaw7 wrote: | | plan9misfit wrote: |
T_O7, I have to call BS on that grade. Most of the players you listed weren't drafted by the Cowboys. Heck, Novacek wasn't even drafted by us. The Cardinals drafted him. The thread is to grade Jerry on the TEs we drafted, not the TEs who played for us, so you can't possibly base your grade on Novacek, Campbell, Harris, or McGee. |
The question asks how Jerry has replenished the position via draft. What I was showing is who our starter was at the time the years Slam has asked. Given that at times we did have a talented player (not that does not mean all star) at the position, we did not need to replenish often. I never once stated that all those players were drafted by us. In fact, I said so in my post. I ignored Novacek since he was here before 94. |
I think what Plan9 is saying in a nutshell is that the Cowboys clearly did not do a good job of replenishing the position in the draft during the Novacek, Campbell, Harris and McGee years. And, he would be right... the organization was forced to seek FA help instead of draft help. This would be despite having spent a first, second and forth round draft picks on the position within the years prior to bringing in those FAs.
Plan9 actually makes a good point IMO.
_________________
Quote from May 7, 2013...
| MaddHatter wrote: | | Brian Price is still as talented as he ever was. |
On May 9th, 2013, Brian Price was waived by the Dallas Cowboys. |
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