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Presenting: The Top 50 NHL Franchise Cornerstones *6-8*
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JaguarCrazy2832


Joined: 28 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just found this, its an incredible list. Its been a pleasure reading it. Cant wait to see the end of it
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Goon


Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

redsoxsuck05 wrote:
Parise's a little high for my tastes.

He hasn't been quite as good since the injury and I'd take a young Pietrangelo over a 28 year old LW.


Agreed. Aside from scoring 45 goals 4 years ago his past accomplishments don't scream top 15 and neither does his potential anymore. I'm in love as well with his work-ethic,leadership and overall game but no way he should be ranked over Pietrangelo or Hall.

Parise 95 GP , 34 G 75 P

Hall 126 GP , 49 G 95 P

I can understand Perry's ranking, he's won the MVP two years ago and managed to score 87 goals in the last two seasons.
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BirdsFan06050


Joined: 02 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goon wrote:
redsoxsuck05 wrote:
Parise's a little high for my tastes.

He hasn't been quite as good since the injury and I'd take a young Pietrangelo over a 28 year old LW.


Agreed. Aside from scoring 45 goals 4 years ago his past accomplishments don't scream top 15 and neither does his potential anymore. I'm in love as well with his work-ethic,leadership and overall game but no way he should be ranked over Pietrangelo or Hall.

Parise 95 GP , 34 G 75 P

Hall 126 GP , 49 G 95 P

I can understand Perry's ranking, he's won the MVP two years ago and managed to score 87 goals in the last two seasons.


Parise is debatably a top 10 player in the NHL right now IMO, or if not then certainly right on the cusp.

Also, you don't think he'll score in the 90-100 pt range again? I mean, he did miss nearly an entire season in 2011 with injuries, so I don't believe it's unreasonable to suspect that he will produce at that kind of elite level again.

Do Hall and Pietrangelo have more talent and upside? Absolutely, but they don't have the consistent track record nor the sustained production to supplant Parise just yet. That may change by this time next year, but I felt it was appropriate to keep Parise in the top 15 given my high opinion of his style, all-around play, and production over the past 5 seasons.
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bluesfreak74


Joined: 21 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BirdsFan06050 wrote:
Goon wrote:
redsoxsuck05 wrote:
Parise's a little high for my tastes.

He hasn't been quite as good since the injury and I'd take a young Pietrangelo over a 28 year old LW.


Agreed. Aside from scoring 45 goals 4 years ago his past accomplishments don't scream top 15 and neither does his potential anymore. I'm in love as well with his work-ethic,leadership and overall game but no way he should be ranked over Pietrangelo or Hall.

Parise 95 GP , 34 G 75 P

Hall 126 GP , 49 G 95 P

I can understand Perry's ranking, he's won the MVP two years ago and managed to score 87 goals in the last two seasons.


Parise is debatably a top 10 player in the NHL right now IMO, or if not then certainly right on the cusp.

Also, you don't think he'll score in the 90-100 pt range again? I mean, he did miss nearly an entire season in 2011 with injuries, so I don't believe it's unreasonable to suspect that he will produce at that kind of elite level again.

Do Hall and Pietrangelo have more talent and upside? Absolutely, but they don't have the consistent track record nor the sustained production to supplant Parise just yet. That may change by this time next year, but I felt it was appropriate to keep Parise in the top 15 given my high opinion of his style, all-around play, and production over the past 5 seasons.


What is your reasoning of Hall over Petro? I know it's only two spots, but just curious. They both had their first full season in 2010 though Petro played 9 games the year before, but that doesn't really count to me so they've both been in the league the same amount of time.

Another thing with Hall that you mentioned is injuries, it's a little to early in his career to call him injury prone, but he's had quite a few injuries for only being in the league two years that has to worry Oiler fans.
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Goon


Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BirdsFan06050 wrote:
Goon wrote:
redsoxsuck05 wrote:
Parise's a little high for my tastes.

He hasn't been quite as good since the injury and I'd take a young Pietrangelo over a 28 year old LW.


Agreed. Aside from scoring 45 goals 4 years ago his past accomplishments don't scream top 15 and neither does his potential anymore. I'm in love as well with his work-ethic,leadership and overall game but no way he should be ranked over Pietrangelo or Hall.

Parise 95 GP , 34 G 75 P

Hall 126 GP , 49 G 95 P

I can understand Perry's ranking, he's won the MVP two years ago and managed to score 87 goals in the last two seasons.


Parise is debatably a top 10 player in the NHL right now IMO, or if not then certainly right on the cusp.

Also, you don't think he'll score in the 90-100 pt range again? I mean, he did miss nearly an entire season in 2011 with injuries, so I don't believe it's unreasonable to suspect that he will produce at that kind of elite level again.

Do Hall and Pietrangelo have more talent and upside? Absolutely, but they don't have the consistent track record nor the sustained production to supplant Parise just yet. That may change by this time next year, but I felt it was appropriate to keep Parise in the top 15 given my high opinion of his style, all-around play, and production over the past 5 seasons.


Unless there is another boom in scoring coming, I don't see Parise getting 90+ points consistently. One season ? maybe , but not stringing 3-4 seasons of 90+.
In today's NHL that kind of production is reserved for the Crosby's,Malkin's,Giroux's of the world
IMO, this ranking of Parise is biased...probably I would have done the same given he's one of my top 5 favourite players (along with Perry,Kane, Kopitar and Backstrom) but since I'm on the other side I try to come up with arguments to mess up with your list Laughing . I think you factored in too much what he did 3-4 years ago and also you claim unreasonably that he may return to being a 90 point player when he in fact has only one season of 90+ points despite being 28 yo (and that was 4 years ago, before the injury in the 3rd highest scoring season since the lockout)
If it's about who you're taking today for one playoff run I think Parise may be in fact borderline top 15 basically factoring in leadership,two-way and work-ethic at an all time high but since it's about franchise cornerstones, as in getting a piece for building your franchise around it's Hall and Petro for me.
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BirdsFan06050


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^

Don't worry, I don't mind you playing devil's advocate. These debates are how these lists lead to intelligent hockey discussions, so if anything I'm glad that you're questioning the rankings.

However, I think there's a misunderstanding here of how I ranked the players. Again, I'd refer you to the criteria listed on the OP. If this list were as simple as who I'd pick to build my team around moving forward, then, yes, Hall would be ranked higher than Parise. The former is one of only a handful of players that graded out at A+ under offensive potential (this should help to answer your question bluesfreak).

Even so, I've made it clear that past performance was a significant factor, and Hall has played in only 126 games and scored just a career total of 49 goals. Those are impressive stats for a kid who has played in just 2 pro seasons, but I don't feel comfortable placing him ahead of the likes of Parise, Perry, and some of the upcoming forwards just yet given his inexperience. He will undoubtedly rank higher in future years, but his placement is more of an indication of his towering ceiling and potential rather than fulfillment.

The key here is finding a balance between achievement and capability. Given my belief that I think Parise can return to the 90 point plateau and his current status as one of the NHL's best all-around forwards, I felt that this was an apt classification.

Hopefully you at the least understand the logic behind the ranking now. Laughing
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Goon


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand how you rank the players but I was questioning your projection of Parise hitting 90+ points again multiple times. Where did you come up with that? if indeed Parise gets back to form(as in repeats his tremendous,one in a career season because that's how his 08-09 season looks like) then yeah he definitely deserves your ranking . It's like saying Ovechkin is still a 50 goal scorer although he hasn't hit that mark in 2 years but you still go ahead and rank him like he will score 50 next year. I was just saying you should put more stock in what a player accomplished last 2-3 seasons rather than what they did in 06-09 . If you would have put Kessel at 15 and project him to score 90 with a new staff and better weapons around him I would have had very little to say. He's younger and he improved his game and numbers tremendously since coming to the Leafs.
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playmaker8267


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I struggle with my evaluation of Parise as far as projecting him. You know what you're getting -- relentless two-way play, leadership, the occasional timely goal, and adequate playmaking abilities. If/when he signs with a new team in the next couple weeks, how high will his offensive upside be? Will the 40+ goals become the norm for him? I'm just not quite sure.

I think his ranking is pretty fair for now.
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BirdsFan06050


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

13. Patrick Kane, RW, Blackhawks



The 1st overall pick of the Chicago Blackhawks, Kane, the former U.S. National Developmental Team project, headed a weak draft class in 2007. He and former Flyers winger JVR together became the first two Americans to go 1-2 in any draft, which, at the time, spoke volumes about the proliferation of the American development system, and Kane in many circles has become the face and image of its evolution.

As a prospect, Kane was praised by many scouts for being NHL ready having absolutely dominated his competition in the OHL with the London Knights. And in spite of his size, Kane is loaded with pure talent, most notably his slick hands, electric speed, and superlative vision. Kane plays the game with a lot of flair, and he possesses an abundance of tricks and creativity, making him an ultra tough defensive matchup. His porous d-zone coverage and lack of back-checking were significant flaws in his game for several flaws, but he has made slight improvements, especially in the past year when Quenneville tried him out at center. Nevertheless, he's always going to be a player that dominates more in enemy territory.

Kane has had plenty of success in the early going of his career, and is already a Stanley Cup champion, although to take an analogy out of the Skip Bayless book, critics would say his role in that championship was that of Robin and not Batman- who in this case would be Toews (he prefers Superman anyways). Regardless, Kane broke into the league and scored 72 points right off the bat, winning the Calder Trophy in the process. He made his 1st all-star appearance in 2009, and has 3 total already on his resume to boot. Kane's best season came in 2010 when he scored 88 points in 82 games and earned 2nd All-NHL team honors. Furthermore, the Buffalo native notched 28 points in 22 games to help the Blackhawks win their 1st Stanley Cup in 49 years, scoring the cup-winning goal in OT of game 6, a goal that your author will never forget as he sadly witnessed it first-hand, but I digress. Kane's 2012 campaign wasn't special, he scored just 66 points in 82 games, but his past performance, offensive gifts, and potential moving forward warrants such a high placement. I believe he'll be a 90-100 point player in the near future.

Offensive Potential - A
Defensive Potential - C+


Kane Dazzles


12. Jonathan Quick, G, Kings



Quick's past year certainly launched him up the rankings, as he had probably the best season of any player in the NHL all things considered. Another U.S. product, the ultra-athletic goaltender was a mid-round selection of the Kings in the 2005 draft. He went on to have a fine collegiate career at UMass, leading the university to their 1st ever national championship, including a shutout in the final game, before eventually beginning his professional career in Los Angeles.

The 26-year old Quick develop fairly quickly, but consistency, as is the problem for most young goalies, was an issue in the early going. Whether his play was hot or cold, the U.S. netminder has always relied on his terrific athleticism and aggressive goaltending style. Unlike the other goalie who was featured on this list, he has a much more unorthodox style. That's by no means a knock against Quick. Look no further than Dominic Hasek for proof that unorthodox goalies can consistently dominate at the NHL level. Like Hasek, Fuhr, and Thomas, he is smaller than your typical goalie prospect, hence the aggressive style, and is as is as equally quick (no pun intended) post-to-post as any of his contemporaries. Regardless, fans just want to see their man between the pipes stop the puck, and Quick has undoubtedly mastered his craft.

2012 was a magical year for Quick, who earned runner-up Vezina honors, the Conn Smythe, and, most importantly, the Stanley Cup. It was also his best statistical season yet, posting a .929 save %, 1.95 GAA, and 10 shutouts. It could be argued that he was more valuable to his team than any other player, because had he not performed so spectacularly during the regular season when the Kings were not clicking whatsoever, the club would've failed to even make the playoffs. But thanks to Quick, they sneaked in and the rest is history. His 16 wins, .946 save %, and 1.41 GAA earned him playoff MVP honors, and deservingly so. At the conclusion of the season Kings GM Dean Lombardi smartly signed their franchise goaltender to a mega long-term extension that will keep Quick in Hollywood for the next decade, and the Kings will without question have the chance to win multiple Stanley Cups down the road with this guy manning the crease.

Athleticism - A+
Positioning - A


The King of Theft


11. Anze Kopitar, C, Kings



It pains me to leave the big Slovenian just out of the top 10, but this is where I'd start labeling guys "Tier 1 players" for this lists purposes. Taken 11th overall by the Kings in the 2005 draft, the franchise got quite a haul in that year's class, Kopitar moved from his homeland of Slovenia to join the Swedish Elite League to play his junior hockey. A rather odd move looking back at it, but Kopitar fared well in Sweden and just a year after being drafted by Los Angles, he became a regular in their top 6.

Kopitar's got all the ingredients of a sure-fit stud, can't miss NHL star. He can be a human highlight reel with his flashy, and creative, passes and dazzling moves, but his size and hockey IQ also makes an intelligent and dominant 3-zone centerman. Over the years, he has learned to use his size more and more to his advantage, and is fully capable of killing penalties and matching up against big centers should the Kings opt to use him in that kind of role. However, his offensive instincts and talents have always been his forte, and I truly believe that he is a guy that would've already had his first 95-100 point season under his belt had he not playing in defensively structured systems for many years in LA. But you take the good with bad, as these coaches have made him a more complete and significantly better defensive player.

Big Anze's stats aren't awe-inspiring in spite of his towering potential, but are nonetheless plenty reputable. In 2012, Kopitar scored 76 points in the regular season, but, more importantly, notched 20 points in 20 playoff games to lead the Kings' offense to a Stanley Cup. He was also the most valuable Kings forward with an in on-ice goals for per 60 minutes of 3.04 and an on-ice goals against per 60 minutes mark of 2.40. Furthermore, Kopitar produced at a PPG pace in 2011, scoring 73 points in 75 games, but his best scoring season thus far came in 2010, when he posted 81 points in 82 games. Overall in his career, he has notched 40+ assists 5 times, while hitting the 50 assist mark once, but has scored just 30+ goals twice. He has 2 all-star appearances on his resume too. It's hard to project Kopitar's point totals moving forward, but he's sure to be one of the game's elite and most valuable centers with the talent and potential to contend for Hart trophies if he ever gets the opportunity to play in an uptempo system.

Offensive Potential - A
Defensive Potential - A-

Wait...did that just happen?
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redsoxsuck05


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad he's in the top 10. The only reason to be an Islander fan.
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BLick12


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

redsoxsuck05 wrote:
Glad he's in the top 10. The only reason to be an Islander fan.


Anyone that has watched JT sees the ridiculous potential. He just needs some talent around him and the dude is gonna be well regarded nationally.

As far as the last few. Can't dispute any of them, I'm interested to see who you have in the top 10 over Kopitar, I absolutely love his game. He is a guy that never gets any recognition for the Selke but really should, just a great two-way player.
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Another Ginger QB in the AFC North.

Looking forward to the "No Soul Bowl" twice a year
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Mr. Incredible


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kopitar is my favorite non-Flyer in the NHL. I agree with the placement of the last three players, although I could see Quick being bumped up a few spots based on his stellar postseason. Great work on this thread.
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good for you posting this type of thread. It generates discussion, most of which, mine included will offer differing opinion.

I have numerous thoughts but will stick with two, for now.

You missed the boat on Eberle's defensive abilities. He is incredibly gifted in the defensive game. He lead the Oulers in plus minus and really showed improvement. I would place him in the top 10 of offensive forwards when defensive game is considered.

I also disagree with how high Patrick Kane is slotted. I would rank him 5th in importance on his own team. He benefitted from a great deal of hype but isn't the type of player that can shoulder burden.

As for ranking the young Oilers it's a difficult task because of the limited years of experience.

I expect, of the four young guns Yakipov is potentially going to have the most storied career. He is incredibly gifted, NHL ready and loves the physical aspect of the game.

So much is going to depend on how these guys develop emotionally.

Taylor Hall reminds me so much of a young Mark Messier it's frightening. Only difference is Hall is much better offensively at this age than Messier was. All signs point to him being the leader of the young Oilers. It also appears he is headed for the center position this season.

Eberle has sick hands and is the most consistent of the current trio. He can play in any situation and is never a liability.

RNH has tremendous spatial orientation and a very high hockey I.Q. I'm still not certain where his upside is. He battle injuries and as a result displayed some inconsistency.

If I had to rank them it would be in terms of importance to the team and it would look like this.

Hall
Eberle
RNH

It's going to be a treat watching these kids mature together. It's also going to be fun as some of the Oilers young den make the big team.

They have an excellent core of youth and if they can move a number of contracts to bring in a top pairing damn to play with Smid they could surprise some teams this year.

I expect they are two years from being a team that is taken seriously but as the core matures and the young D report they are going to be a powerful squad.

I really wish Klefbom was staying in North America this year. That alone would make a big change.
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mm6492


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't have Kane this high. He's a good player, but I would have him closer to 20-25 then 10 in all honesty.
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redsoxsuck05


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm6492 wrote:
Wouldn't have Kane this high. He's a good player, but I would have him closer to 20-25 then 10 in all honesty.


Kane really hasn't progressed much over the past few years. I understand he already set the bar high with the rookie production but he failed as a Center because he couldn't handle the defensive responsibilities.
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