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AZBearsFan
Joined: 04 Feb 2006
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 Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| ChicagoAl wrote: | | AZBearsFan wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Superman(DH23) wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Superman(DH23) wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Superman(DH23) wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Superman(DH23) wrote: | | Yes, he is WAAAAAAAAAAAY more talented than Knox, he's a better route runner, has better hands, already understands body position, is better after the catch. Let me help you understand what kind of ridiculous talent Jeffery is. First off let's talk about speed: he's not an incredibly explosive player like Knox was, however he has plenty of deep speed in his own rite, runnin a 4.4 at nearly 6'4", he was a very consistent deep threat in the SEC. Speed is not nearly the issue w/ Jeffery some less educated fans make it out to be. Secondly, Jeffery had the, hands down, best hands in the draft this year. It wasn't even a question. In 3 years at SC Jeffery had 2, that's rite, 2 drops. And this was playin w/ one of the worst QB situations around. As for body position, just use a little youtube and you'll find plenty of examples of Jeffery usin his body to beat defenders, again, keep in mind Jeffery played his college career in the SEC. If he had declared following his sophomore year, Jeffery would have been in the same discussion as AJ Green and Julio Jones, and very well may have been the first WR drafted. He is infinitely more talented than Knox who's only advantage is that he can run a 4.3. |
I think it should be noted that I was one of the few people around here who noted two yrs ago that AJ was the guy for the Bears in the draft so I am well aware of his talents and the criticisms which have been leveled at him. Be that as it may it does not mean that I don't also appreciate the great talent Knox is and what he has done for the Bears. If AJ is "infinitely" more talented than Knox he is sure-fire Hall of Fame so I can only wish that you are correct. However, he does not run a 4.4 more like 4.6. He will not immediately have his way with NFL DBs so I have relatively modest expectations for his first year. |
He was clocked in the 40 at his proday at 4.38 by espn, scouts had him between 4.40 and 4.50. He runs a 4.4. The 4.6 talk was from people who were guessing his time, the same people also guessed that mcnutt would run a 4.6 (he ran a 4.4 as well) and kendall wright a 4.3 (where he actually ran a 4.6). Other than 4.3 speed what talent does knox have over jeffery? The list of things jeffery does better than knox is longer than my arm |
I'll just call you "Shorty". |
again i ask you besides run a 40 faster what does knox do better? |
Why would you think I believe Knox is BETTER than Jeffery? He might be, but we haven't seen Jeffery play in the NFL so there is no basis for such a conclusion. Jeffery damn well better be better than Knox or Emery is going to look pretty bad. Speed at Pro Days is sometimes not that authoritative or convincing unlike Combine timings with objective timers. Like any other college player Jeffery is going to have to prove his worth. Knox has proven his in spades. |
So you aree then that Jeffery is much more talented than Knox then...thanks.
Now let's talk about this myth of how great Knox's first 3 years have been
Knox-133 rec, 2214 yards, 12 TDs (avg 44 rec, 740 yards, 4 TDs)
Bennett-124 rec, 1659 yards, 6 TDs (avg 41 rec, 552 yards 2 TDs)
Now Bennett also played in 4 less games over that time frame, and furthermore Bennett was inexplicably removed from his starters role in year 2 until the last 3 games of the year (games in which he outproduced Knox in everyone) it's certainly not a stretch to say had Bennett played the same amount of time his #s would be very similar to Knox and probably would have significantly more catches.
Hester (2008-2010 his first 3 years as a full time WR)148 rec, 1897 yards, 10 TDs (avg 48 rec, 632 yards, 3.3 TDs)
Once again Hester wasn't even a starter until halfway thru 2008 and everyone here says Devin isn't even a WR but his #s are eerily similar to Knox.
That's just current players how bout some past ones...
Berrian 2005 -2007 -135 rec, 1972 yards, 11 TDs (45 rec, 1972 yards, 4 TDs)
Berrian only played in 11 games in 2005 and only started 2, his 2 first full years as a starter are significantly better than Knox's, on top of that his next year in Minny was better than Knox's 3rd year by a significant margin.
Moose 2005-2008(his only 3 years w/ the Bears) 164 rec, 2183 yards, 12 TDs (avg 55 rec, 727 yards, 4 TDs)
So unless you think Moose (who by all accounts dissappointed in his time here) was great, then Knox can't have been great
Booker 2001-2003 (Booker's first 3 years as a starter) 249 rec, 2975 yards, 18 TDs (avg 75 rec, 992 yards, 6 TDs; 2 ProBowls
Please tell me in any way how Knox has ever been better than Booker?
Conway was better, Jeff Graham was better
Knox is not as good as you seem to think he is.
Now just for you know what and giggles I decided to look up Devery Henderson, AZ you are brilliant my friend
Henderson started 29 games in his first 3 years w/ a real QB still he put up
84 rec, 1947 yards, 11 TDs (avg 28 rec, 649 yards, 4 TDs)
What a great comparison. |
Huh? I haven't said anything about Devery Henderson and don't care anything about him. Your other stats merely show that what I claimed was true. He has been as good as any WR the Bears have had the last ten years and put up comparable numbers with our best of the last 20 years. I also referenced Booker's production and Graham and Conway. Those are the only ones who had better years on occasion. He is very explosive and comparable to our most productive WRs especially yards per catch and tds. Poo poo it as you will. |
I brought up Henderson, and my point with it was that, in an offense with legit WR, a guy with his skill set (which is what Knox has) is a complimentary player. Knox being the most productive overall WR from a subpar group of WR doesn't make him great or even good. Jabar Gaffney led Washington in receiving yards last year. Was that because he, after 10 years in the league, finally became good? Or did he benefit greatly statistically from the fact that he was getting starter reps on a team missing Chris Cooley, Santana Moss and Fred Davis for large portions of the season? I happen to think he is the beneficiary of a favorable circumstance, much the way Knox has been the past 3 years. That doesn't mean they don't have value, but I think it does mean that their stats probably don't tell the whole story.
Of course, the best way to resolve this debate would be to see where Knox fits now that we have Marshall and Jeffery added into the mix but we probably wont get that chance. While Bennett has been outproduced statistically by Knox the past few years he is more irreplaceable IMO than Knox is because he has what Knox hasn't been able to develop with Jay over the past 3 years - trust. Jay doesn't seem to trust Knox, and that is far more relevant IMO than we might think. Looking at our current roster, Johnny is (at best) Jay's 4th most trusted target (behind Marshall, Bennett and Forte). If he was as valuable as you believe he is I would think he'd be higher on that list. |
Your opinion of who is and who is not "trusted" by Jay is only that. If the game was on the line the last two years and there was only one chance to win it, I will wager who Jay would "trust" and turn to. There is NO basis for claiming he does not trust JK which is not completely subjective.
What I have concentrated on is what actually has happened on the playing field. Not what "might have happened but for...", or "who has more technique..." or "who is liked by whom..." I understand that stats don't always tell the complete story but they do tell a lot, particularly that a player either does or does not take advantage of opportunities which is all that you can ask of him. |
You don't have to sell me on the validity of stats - I buy into them more than almost anyone. As for the trust thing, you are right that's how I see things and isn't fact based, but who does he look to on 3rd down or when he is under pressure or in the red zone? Knox is not the answer to any of those. Knox has more overall TDs than Bennett the past 3 years but almost all of them were long passes (what everyone keeps saying is his one undisputed value to the team). You don't average almost 20 ypc by being a big factor in the short passing game. Bennett and Forte work the short passing game. Knox works the deep passing game.
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| GRRLacher wrote: | | I told you guys AZ was awesome...he in fact makes triple the pay I get for moderating here. |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7060
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| AZBearsFan wrote: |
You don't have to sell me on the validity of stats - I buy into them more than almost anyone. As for the trust thing, you are right that's how I see things and isn't fact based, but who does he look to on 3rd down or when he is under pressure or in the red zone? Knox is not the answer to any of those. Knox has more overall TDs than Bennett the past 3 years but almost all of them were long passes (what everyone keeps saying is his one undisputed value to the team). You don't average almost 20 ypc by being a big factor in the short passing game. Bennett and Forte work the short passing game. Knox works the deep passing game. |
This is what has me so excited about this year (not that, in spite of good sense and reason, I am not always excited by the beginning of a new season), the NUMBER of weapons Jay is going to have even without Johnny. Now Bennett, Forte, Davis, Hernandez, even Bush and Spaeth are all reliable receivers in the short game, Sanz was catching balls at year's end. And not many teams have potentially as many deep threats with Marshall, Jeffery, and Hester. Yum, yum, yum.
BTW aren't you getting trust and position description mixed up here? Johnny's position does not call for him to be the go-to-guy in the short game or third down play so I don't see him not being "trusted" but that is just not the situation to look for him in general. |
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AZBearsFan
Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 8901
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| ChicagoAl wrote: | | AZBearsFan wrote: |
You don't have to sell me on the validity of stats - I buy into them more than almost anyone. As for the trust thing, you are right that's how I see things and isn't fact based, but who does he look to on 3rd down or when he is under pressure or in the red zone? Knox is not the answer to any of those. Knox has more overall TDs than Bennett the past 3 years but almost all of them were long passes (what everyone keeps saying is his one undisputed value to the team). You don't average almost 20 ypc by being a big factor in the short passing game. Bennett and Forte work the short passing game. Knox works the deep passing game. |
This is what has me so excited about this year (not that, in spite of good sense and reason, I am not always excited by the beginning of a new season), the NUMBER of weapons Jay is going to have even without Johnny. Now Bennett, Forte, Davis, Hernandez, even Bush and Spaeth are all reliable receivers in the short game, Sanz was catching balls at year's end. And not many teams have potentially as many deep threats with Marshall, Jeffery, and Hester. Yum, yum, yum.
BTW aren't you getting trust and position description mixed up here? Johnny's position does not call for him to be the go-to-guy in the short game or third down play so I don't see him not being "trusted" but that is just not the situation to look for him in general. |
That is just it. Knox was tried in the short passing game and his lack of finishing several slant routes led to several interceptions. (For the record I know you disagree with that so let's just agree to disagree on it up front). That Knox's role last year only really called for him to be a factor on deep routes only validates what has been said about him being a one trick pony and that he isn't trusted working in the short passing game though, doesn't it?
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| GRRLacher wrote: | | I told you guys AZ was awesome...he in fact makes triple the pay I get for moderating here. |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7060
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| AZBearsFan wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | AZBearsFan wrote: |
You don't have to sell me on the validity of stats - I buy into them more than almost anyone. As for the trust thing, you are right that's how I see things and isn't fact based, but who does he look to on 3rd down or when he is under pressure or in the red zone? Knox is not the answer to any of those. Knox has more overall TDs than Bennett the past 3 years but almost all of them were long passes (what everyone keeps saying is his one undisputed value to the team). You don't average almost 20 ypc by being a big factor in the short passing game. Bennett and Forte work the short passing game. Knox works the deep passing game. |
This is what has me so excited about this year (not that, in spite of good sense and reason, I am not always excited by the beginning of a new season), the NUMBER of weapons Jay is going to have even without Johnny. Now Bennett, Forte, Davis, Hernandez, even Bush and Spaeth are all reliable receivers in the short game, Sanz was catching balls at year's end. And not many teams have potentially as many deep threats with Marshall, Jeffery, and Hester. Yum, yum, yum.
BTW aren't you getting trust and position description mixed up here? Johnny's position does not call for him to be the go-to-guy in the short game or third down play so I don't see him not being "trusted" but that is just not the situation to look for him in general. |
That is just it. Knox was tried in the short passing game and his lack of finishing several slant routes led to several interceptions. (For the record I know you disagree with that so let's just agree to disagree on it up front). That Knox's role last year only really called for him to be a factor on deep routes only validates what has been said about him being a one trick pony and that he isn't trusted working in the short passing game though, doesn't it? |
Well, not all of his catches have been on long balls and he has caught plenty of passes over the middle so I don't see him not being "trusted" in any way. But he was their deep threat and would more often than not be used to clear out the middle game for the other guys who are not deep threats like Sanz and Bennett and Forte. There was no lack of trust wrt JK's ability or courage Jay simply had more experience with Earl.
BTW even if he was a "one trick pony" that is a pretty terrific trick, to be on the verge of 1000 yds the last two years. |
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AZBearsFan
Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 8901
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| ChicagoAl wrote: | | AZBearsFan wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | AZBearsFan wrote: |
You don't have to sell me on the validity of stats - I buy into them more than almost anyone. As for the trust thing, you are right that's how I see things and isn't fact based, but who does he look to on 3rd down or when he is under pressure or in the red zone? Knox is not the answer to any of those. Knox has more overall TDs than Bennett the past 3 years but almost all of them were long passes (what everyone keeps saying is his one undisputed value to the team). You don't average almost 20 ypc by being a big factor in the short passing game. Bennett and Forte work the short passing game. Knox works the deep passing game. |
This is what has me so excited about this year (not that, in spite of good sense and reason, I am not always excited by the beginning of a new season), the NUMBER of weapons Jay is going to have even without Johnny. Now Bennett, Forte, Davis, Hernandez, even Bush and Spaeth are all reliable receivers in the short game, Sanz was catching balls at year's end. And not many teams have potentially as many deep threats with Marshall, Jeffery, and Hester. Yum, yum, yum.
BTW aren't you getting trust and position description mixed up here? Johnny's position does not call for him to be the go-to-guy in the short game or third down play so I don't see him not being "trusted" but that is just not the situation to look for him in general. |
That is just it. Knox was tried in the short passing game and his lack of finishing several slant routes led to several interceptions. (For the record I know you disagree with that so let's just agree to disagree on it up front). That Knox's role last year only really called for him to be a factor on deep routes only validates what has been said about him being a one trick pony and that he isn't trusted working in the short passing game though, doesn't it? |
Well, not all of his catches have been on long balls and he has caught plenty of passes over the middle so I don't see him not being "trusted" in any way. But he was their deep threat and would more often than not be used to clear out the middle game for the other guys who are not deep threats like Sanz and Bennett and Forte. There was no lack of trust wrt JK's ability or courage Jay simply had more experience with Earl.
BTW even if he was a "one trick pony" that is a pretty terrific trick, to be on the verge of 1000 yds the last two years. |
The stats are what they are, but he was a statistical non factor in 9 of 13 games last year while serving as our #1 outside receiver. All I'm saying is that that is a big problem for me, even if I do believe he was miscast as a #1 last year.
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| GRRLacher wrote: | | I told you guys AZ was awesome...he in fact makes triple the pay I get for moderating here. |
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ak06max
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 1202
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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1000 posts sorry had to!
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| ak06max wrote: | | 1000 posts sorry had to! |
LoL. Put it on Facebook. |
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