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Steelrain43
Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Posts: 53
Location: Tennessee
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 Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| FourThreeMafia wrote: | Im not saying Rainey wont make it and Im not saying Maze WILL show more than him.
What I AM saying is a) if Maze proves to be more of an all around player, they will keep him over Rainey regardless of where either was taken in the draft, and b) NEITHER player is proven so NO ONE has an advantage right now.
If you think Rainey will show better and make the team....thats one thing and I respect that....but its another to say he has an advantage when he is no more proven than Maze. And being a late 5th round pick doesnt give any real advantage, as late round picks like that are just looked at as special team supplementation first and foremost.
Time will tell. I dont care who makes it at this point. Just saying that Maze has just as much of a shot if he shows well too. |
I hear ya..and yes, you could be right..but at this point, what better thing do we have to judge by than positional depth at wr and Rb to make a comparison...?
especially if you agree with your point of--neither one is proven..I agree...
so--is it equal?--I think not...wr depth vs Rb depth---with current steelers roster--who is proven at those positions?
and because of that answer--I do think more due to steelers ROSTER, rather than these actual players--rainey will have a slight advantage, but I am not a coach, and I read the same things you do...
on wrs--anyone remember a wr steelers had in camp that was suppossed to be "the thing" for the steelers years ago under cowher?
dudes name had some zzzz's in it...strange named dude...he never made it, but cowher told everyone to watch for him...
so i have seen coaches praise big time, and it meant nothing..perhaps both of these players won't make it, or be practice team...but for me, I look more to team needs and players on thoxse positions to tell me where to guess at...
cause let's be honest--we don't know..LOL!...just putting my stamp on this...I am still going rainey....I think the homerun ability at RB is somethign they want, because they already have that at wr....
not bad to have gamebreaking players, especially at RB, where that is more rare..but everyone else throw in their thoughts, I am a rainey dude.. |
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at23steelers
Joined: 05 Mar 2011
Posts: 3721
Location: United States
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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Was it Zamir Cobb??  He was someone I was hoping we'd keep longer than we did! |
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Steelrain43
Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Posts: 53
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| at23steelers wrote: | | Was it Zamir Cobb?? He was someone I was hoping we'd keep longer than we did! |
LOL!--give that man a cigar!!!..yep...
cowher taked him up big time, and yes--all of us that dive in deep into our team was hoping for a big time WR to come out...
oops..practice team one year I think--then they said all the good things about him..think he got injured possibly, then-gone...
everyone wants that "victor cruz" on their team LOL!..maybe there is our version on the team right now...
well, we did have parker, unsigned FA...but yes, great job on zamir "corn" cobb.... |
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Dcash4
Joined: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| FourThreeMafia wrote: | | If you think Rainey will show better and make the team....thats one thing and I respect that....but its another to say he has an advantage when he is no more proven than Maze. And being a late 5th round pick doesnt give any real advantage, as late round picks like that are just looked at as special team supplementation first and foremost. |
He is no more proven than Rainey I agree. I dont really disagree with you, but it still seems like your thinking of this as more of a long term thing. Im just saying currently right now.
I dont see why there shouldnt be expected more of someone taken in the draft as to an UDFA. Dont quite understand that part of it. But to each his own. I just truely believe that it is an advantage. Say it was an absolute tie at the end of camp between these 2? Who do you pick? The guy that you took with one of your draft picks, or the guy you found afterwards? Thats why i think he has an advantage.
I just think of it as having a kid that comes on a partial scholarship to your school. He automatically gets the first look over a guy who just walked on because they is something invested in him. |
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FourThreeMafia
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 40594
Location: East of Sixburgh
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Dcash4 wrote: | | FourThreeMafia wrote: | | If you think Rainey will show better and make the team....thats one thing and I respect that....but its another to say he has an advantage when he is no more proven than Maze. And being a late 5th round pick doesnt give any real advantage, as late round picks like that are just looked at as special team supplementation first and foremost. |
He is no more proven than Rainey I agree. I dont really disagree with you, but it still seems like your thinking of this as more of a long term thing. Im just saying currently right now.
I dont see why there shouldnt be expected more of someone taken in the draft as to an UDFA. Dont quite understand that part of it. But to each his own. I just truely believe that it is an advantage. Say it was an absolute tie at the end of camp between these 2? Who do you pick? The guy that you took with one of your draft picks, or the guy you found afterwards? Thats why i think he has an advantage.
I just think of it as having a kid that comes on a partial scholarship to your school. He automatically gets the first look over a guy who just walked on because they is something invested in him. |
If you were talking about a 1st, 2nd, 3rd or even 4th round pick, Id agree.
But this is a late 5th. As I said before....there usually isnt a monumental gap in talent between a some later rounders and some UDFAs. Even Colbert said when they got Willie Parker, they liked him enough to draft him, but since not many other teams knew about him, felt they could get him in UDFA.
Expectations may be slightly higher for Rainey, but as far as an advantage to making the roster? No. Why? Because in the end, both have to prove themselves to even make the team....unlike an early rounder who is uaually given the benefit of the doubt for a year or 2. If Maze showed he was better, I GUARANTEE they wouldnt say "Well, Rainey didnt look as good as Maze, but we will keep him because we drafted him in the 5th round."
Im not saying that will happen, but being a 5th rounder gives no luxuries and doesnt assure you of a roster spot over a UDFA.
I suppose if you are talking RIGHT NOW as of this very second, Rainey does have that advantage, but it doesnt matter because there are no cuts that need to be made right now, so if they cut Maze, I dont think it would have to do with any compeition between him an Rainey.
I am speaking in terms of when they are ACTUALLY competing for a roster spot and showing what they have. Thats when it actually matters.
And yes....first LOOK, but even in college, if a walk on is better, they will make it over that partial scholarship guy.
_________________
| cluelessororke wrote: | | I am going to laugh in your face when they don't even sniff WR until day three of the draft |
Still waiting for your laugh.... |
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Steelrain43
Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Posts: 53
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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I do agree with your summation of they will keep a player and have no reguard for draft pick or walk on...
I do agree..
but that changes nothing about--team needs..which is what we should focus on...what are the differances between RB position and WR position for the steelers?..
the Rb situation is cloudy at best, and melwelde moore who played as a role player RB is not there...
so--wrs for steelers are they set at wr depth deeper than RB?..i say yes...
wallace and mendy both do not have contracts past this year..tell me--of those 2--which will the steelers want to keep, and which one is more vital?
mendy is gone fellas...he will play a little bit this year-then he will e gone to FA, and the steelers will get a compensation pick for the loss...that's how that is gonna end...
and i do think--wallace will stay, and get paid....i think steelers will retain more Rbs in the effort to replace mendy this year--and the future...
but that is my guess...I do not expect mendy to be resigned..and I think that changes things a bit considering the RB depth chart this year--and next... |
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FourThreeMafia
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 40594
Location: East of Sixburgh
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrain43 wrote: | I do agree with your summation of they will keep a player and have no reguard for draft pick or walk on...
I do agree..
but that changes nothing about--team needs..which is what we should focus on...what are the differances between RB position and WR position for the steelers?..
the Rb situation is cloudy at best, and melwelde moore who played as a role player RB is not there...
so--wrs for steelers are they set at wr depth deeper than RB?..i say yes...
wallace and mendy both do not have contracts past this year..tell me--of those 2--which will the steelers want to keep, and which one is more vital?
mendy is gone fellas...he will play a little bit this year-then he will e gone to FA, and the steelers will get a compensation pick for the loss...that's how that is gonna end...
and i do think--wallace will stay, and get paid....i think steelers will retain more Rbs in the effort to replace mendy this year--and the future...
but that is my guess...I do not expect mendy to be resigned..and I think that changes things a bit considering the RB depth chart this year--and next... |
Their positions really dont matter that much since both will be buried on the depth chart. As low round rookies/UDFAs, esepcially with the Steelers, you are competing for a roster spot via special teams. The fact that we have more talent at WR than RB doesnt matter a whole lot since its probable neither are starting qualtiy NFL players. They are special teams guys and depth. Anything they show beyond that is gravy.
As far as Mendenhall...it depends. Pretty sure they even said they'd like to resign him. It just depends how much he demands. If he wants more than he has earned....then yes, but if he takes a reasonable amount...maybe for just 2-3 years, there is a chance we could retain him. He will get other offers but he wont have high demand. Its not like he has been extremely productive or proven to be anything special.
And even if we do lose Mendenhall, the fact that we have Rainey likely doesnt matter at all. He is a situational player at best on offense, People need to stop comparing him to Sproles because its a terrible comparison. Rainey is a scat back and a guy that might be able to give you a good play here and there. He will likely never be a guy who touches the ball on offense more than 7 or 8 times a game in the NFL. So if we lose Mendenhall, we would be in the same situation at RB...with or without Rainey. We would still need a suitable replacement as our feature back....unless Redman proves he can do it.
And at WR...as I said, there are only 4 spots guarnateed filled. The Steelers are going to carry at least 5 WRs. If Clemons beats Maze out, then Maze likely wont make the team unless he is brilliant on STs. But if he looks better than Clemons at WR and its a push on STs between him and Rainey, Maze has the advantage there.
Again...not saying that will happen, but there is no leg up anyway you look at it, and wont be until one of them shows something...good or bad.
_________________
| cluelessororke wrote: | | I am going to laugh in your face when they don't even sniff WR until day three of the draft |
Still waiting for your laugh.... |
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Steelrain43
Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Posts: 53
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| FourThreeMafia wrote: | | Steelrain43 wrote: | I do agree with your summation of they will keep a player and have no reguard for draft pick or walk on...
I do agree..
but that changes nothing about--team needs..which is what we should focus on...what are the differances between RB position and WR position for the steelers?..
the Rb situation is cloudy at best, and melwelde moore who played as a role player RB is not there...
so--wrs for steelers are they set at wr depth deeper than RB?..i say yes...
wallace and mendy both do not have contracts past this year..tell me--of those 2--which will the steelers want to keep, and which one is more vital?
mendy is gone fellas...he will play a little bit this year-then he will e gone to FA, and the steelers will get a compensation pick for the loss...that's how that is gonna end...
and i do think--wallace will stay, and get paid....i think steelers will retain more Rbs in the effort to replace mendy this year--and the future...
but that is my guess...I do not expect mendy to be resigned..and I think that changes things a bit considering the RB depth chart this year--and next... |
Their positions really dont matter that much since both will be buried on the depth chart. As low round rookies/UDFAs, esepcially with the Steelers, you are competing for a roster spot via special teams. The fact that we have more talent at WR than RB doesnt matter a whole lot since its probable neither are starting qualtiy NFL players. They are special teams guys and depth. Anything they show beyond that is gravy.
As far as Mendenhall...it depends. Pretty sure they even said they'd like to resign him. It just depends how much he demands. If he wants more than he has earned....then yes, but if he takes a reasonable amount...maybe for just 2-3 years, there is a chance we could retain him. He will get other offers but he wont have high demand. Its not like he has been extremely productive or proven to be anything special.
And even if we do lose Mendenhall, the fact that we have Rainey likely doesnt matter at all. He is a situational player at best on offense, People need to stop comparing him to Sproles because its a terrible comparison. Rainey is a scat back and a guy that might be able to give you a good play here and there. He will likely never be a guy who touches the ball on offense more than 7 or 8 times a game in the NFL. So if we lose Mendenhall, we would be in the same situation at RB...with or without Rainey. We would still need a suitable replacement as our feature back....unless Redman proves he can do it.
And at WR...as I said, there are only 4 spots guarnateed filled. The Steelers are going to carry at least 5 WRs. If Clemons beats Maze out, then Maze likely wont make the team unless he is brilliant on STs. But if he looks better than Clemons at WR and its a push on STs between him and Rainey, Maze has the advantage there.
Again...not saying that will happen, but there is no leg up anyway you look at it, and wont be until one of them shows something...good or bad. |
I did see a special on FA players, and mendenhall was discussed..and one thing i thought was interesting is this--accoding to their sources, there is a lot of interest in mendenhall from the other teams in the league...
because the other teams GMs think that the steelers oline hurt mendenhalls production, and they project that mendy will be a top 5 RB behind a better line than what the steelers put on the field since he was drafted..
hurts, but I truthfully cannot say--there may be some truth in that..so if that report had any ring of truth behind it, mendys value could be too high for the steelers as a unrestricted FA....the price at RB has dropped, but there could be teams willing to pay a few grades below a peterson or johnson deal...
and the steelers will not pay him that...thoughts???? |
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Steelrain43
Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Posts: 53
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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one more thing, on the topic of all these players are competing for special teams draft pick or FA rookie...
willie parker did come into the steelers camp, and as a backup hardly used college RB priority FA actually beat out jerome bettis as a starter, without playing any special teams...
so--we have seen in our time, the steelers sit a power back, on a power back built team, and start a untested and undrafted backup college RB and skip him on special teams and make him a feature back...
and this guy was a speed back only...had nothing but flat out speed...so i ahve seen steelers do weirder things than make chris rainey play as a 3rd down situational RB, which is what I am thinking in the melwelde moore spot, and situational darren sproles type plays...
the type of plays--willie parker should have been used on?
but you do have some good stuff, and yeah, you could be right..we will find out soon, what 70 days till preseason football???not too far off now..
lord, let haley get this system working good..and let the steelers score like the pats, but still have the number one defense....
ahhh..let them score just a TD more than last year per game..then bring the pats on again..we will stomp them again... |
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Steelrain43
Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Posts: 53
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| sorry, this was a repeat post...damn CPU..LOL! |
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FourThreeMafia
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 40594
Location: East of Sixburgh
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | so--we have seen in our time, the steelers sit a power back, on a power back built team, and start a untested and undrafted backup college RB and skip him on special teams and make him a feature back... |
Off the topic of returners a bit, but....
They didnt really "sit" the power backs. Willie Parker first started due to injuries to Bettis and Duce Staley in 2005 preseason. Parker played great though and kept the starting job.
Also, there is no such thing as a power BACK offense. Power RUN, yes...any type of back can have success in that offense with a good OLine. Its not even about having a power back as much as it is about controlling the line of scrimmage and having long sustained drives consistenting mainly of yard gaining runs up the middle. Even though Parker wasnt a power back, most of the runs called for him were up the gut, and he still had success.
_________________
| cluelessororke wrote: | | I am going to laugh in your face when they don't even sniff WR until day three of the draft |
Still waiting for your laugh.... |
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Steelrain43
Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Posts: 53
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| FourThreeMafia wrote: | | Quote: | | so--we have seen in our time, the steelers sit a power back, on a power back built team, and start a untested and undrafted backup college RB and skip him on special teams and make him a feature back... |
Off the topic of returners a bit, but....
They didnt really "sit" the power backs. Willie Parker first started due to injuries to Bettis and Duce Staley in 2005 preseason. Parker played great though and kept the starting job.
Also, there is no such thing as a power BACK offense. Power RUN, yes...any type of back can have success in that offense with a good OLine. Its not even about having a power back as much as it is about controlling the line of scrimmage and having long sustained drives consistenting mainly of yard gaining runs up the middle. Even though Parker wasnt a power back, most of the runs called for him were up the gut, and he still had success. |
with respect, i disagree that the steelers run game with that Oline of marvel smith, faneca, and hartings wasn't a power run game...with bettis or duce..
do you remember in 2005 the steelers lining up in goal line formation vs the pats....in the 2nd and 3rd quaters, on first and 10?...
what else, would you call a run game when playcalling is such, other than a power run???..
oh yeah..pats couldn't stop it either...
do we have that now?...sure power run is my own term, but I think you get what i am driving at, you just have to go back to late 1990's and eraly 2000-2005 eras..
what would you call it?..I called it power run game...hammer backs...bettis beat the Lbs until they was sore...3-4 yards a carry, but we ain't gonna stop..we aren't even gonna change up...we aren't going to suprise you--you know what we are gonna do...
but we don't care..you know the play--we run it every game..betcha can't stop us either..
that my friend, is what i call a power run game philoshophy...based on overpowering your opponents defense, then the defense does the same...
that's what we was...agree? |
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Steelrain43
Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Posts: 53
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| FourThreeMafia wrote: | | Quote: | | so--we have seen in our time, the steelers sit a power back, on a power back built team, and start a untested and undrafted backup college RB and skip him on special teams and make him a feature back... |
Off the topic of returners a bit, but....
They didnt really "sit" the power backs. Willie Parker first started due to injuries to Bettis and Duce Staley in 2005 preseason. Parker played great though and kept the starting job.
Also, there is no such thing as a power BACK offense. Power RUN, yes...any type of back can have success in that offense with a good OLine. Its not even about having a power back as much as it is about controlling the line of scrimmage and having long sustained drives consistenting mainly of yard gaining runs up the middle. Even though Parker wasnt a power back, most of the runs called for him were up the gut, and he still had success. |
and one more thing on parker---he would have an avg of 2.4 yards per carry thru a [part of a game..then, break a long one, and his avg would go up....
but what is not shown--is that you had to punt everytime he couldn't convert a 3rd and 2....I liked parker running outside...90% of every long run that guy did, no matter where the gap was called for the run/block assignment---he broke outside..noone feared parkers power...but everyone including the seahawks saw what he could do once he broke contain and busted an inside call outside when he set the SB record for longest run in a super bowl...
I understand if you aren't getting what i am saying, cause it is my own language in describing what i saw in the steelers playcalling and run philoshopy during a certain timeframe...very predictable playcalling...but they still did it..cause it was built to overpower...not to suprise...
and that s why the trick plays worked when they did...but I wished I had a stat to show willie parker in A gap runs vs all other gaps as an avg..I bet--his avg is way lower, and he wouldn't even be in the AVG range, however you say--he had success there too...
i watched those games too bro..and i didn't see too many good a gap runs...what i did see was him break outside, and then he was gone...
but power run game, power back..i can understand that you are wonderign what i am talking about..how about a 260 pound RB who can run good?...
been just a few, that i could define as a hammer or power back--bettis...jamal lewis in his prime...brandon jacobs...
they played more like--well, earl campbell did..perhaps that is the best way to describe what i am saying..a campbell back? |
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skywlker32
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 2575
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| FourThreeMafia wrote: | | Quote: | | so--we have seen in our time, the steelers sit a power back, on a power back built team, and start a untested and undrafted backup college RB and skip him on special teams and make him a feature back... |
Off the topic of returners a bit, but....
They didnt really "sit" the power backs. Willie Parker first started due to injuries to Bettis and Duce Staley in 2005 preseason. Parker played great though and kept the starting job.
Also, there is no such thing as a power BACK offense. Power RUN, yes...any type of back can have success in that offense with a good OLine. Its not even about having a power back as much as it is about controlling the line of scrimmage and having long sustained drives consistenting mainly of yard gaining runs up the middle. Even though Parker wasnt a power back, most of the runs called for him were up the gut, and he still had success. |
It's not always how you call the offense, but how the offense is built. A power back with a mediocre OL will generally do better than a speed back of the same quality. When you have an offense that you want to run a whole no matter whether the other team knows or not (no/little misdirection), you either have to have a top OL or a power back. The OL would allow for a small gain in most situations and large gain in good situations. The power back will rarely get you large gains, but will get some yardage no matter what (falls forward type of back).
You can definitely have an offense that fits a power back more than a quick back, it just depends on what you have built around them.
_________________
Thanks to Frank Costello.
In response to complaining about refs...
| FlyinDawkins wrote: | | You're going full Seahawks fan. Never go full Seahawks fan. |
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Steelrain43
Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Posts: 53
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| skywlker32 wrote: | | FourThreeMafia wrote: | | Quote: | | so--we have seen in our time, the steelers sit a power back, on a power back built team, and start a untested and undrafted backup college RB and skip him on special teams and make him a feature back... |
Off the topic of returners a bit, but....
They didnt really "sit" the power backs. Willie Parker first started due to injuries to Bettis and Duce Staley in 2005 preseason. Parker played great though and kept the starting job.
Also, there is no such thing as a power BACK offense. Power RUN, yes...any type of back can have success in that offense with a good OLine. Its not even about having a power back as much as it is about controlling the line of scrimmage and having long sustained drives consistenting mainly of yard gaining runs up the middle. Even though Parker wasnt a power back, most of the runs called for him were up the gut, and he still had success. |
It's not always how you call the offense, but how the offense is built. A power back with a mediocre OL will generally do better than a speed back of the same quality. When you have an offense that you want to run a whole no matter whether the other team knows or not (no/little misdirection), you either have to have a top OL or a power back. The OL would allow for a small gain in most situations and large gain in good situations. The power back will rarely get you large gains, but will get some yardage no matter what (falls forward type of back).
You can definitely have an offense that fits a power back more than a quick back, it just depends on what you have built around them. |
there ya go, agree 100%.. |
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