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Matts4313
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 31156
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of 12
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 Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| TheStarStillShines wrote: | | Matts4313 wrote: | I cant take you seriously any more.....
Harvin is in no way as good a WR as Austin. |
How is Austin such a superior WR? Harvin is also a good route runner. He, too, has the ability to run after the catch. He can catch short passes and go deep. His hands are also very good.
Add in his other skills - punt returner, ability to also come out of the backfield, running ability - and he's a multi-dimensional thread the team could really use on offence. In addition, he would be a great complement to Bryant and Witten with his ability to work the middle part of the field as well as the deep seem.
So instead of questioning me, maybe take off your rose-coloured Cowboys glasses off once in a while and try to actually be objective. |
Because Austin is ~30-40 lbs heavier, at least 2-3 inches taller and a significantly better deep threat. He is also a bigger playmaker at the WR position, with more touchdowns and long catches. On top of that, his injury will heal itself and he will be 100%. Harvin will likely never complete a season due to his chronic head issues.
As far as a kick return, Austin did his fair share (and was pretty good at it too) of KR when he was a back up. Harvin just does it more, likely to supplement the fact that he #2 WR in the NFL.
It doesnt take Cowboys Glasses to realize Austin>Harvin. So, I will question you. Cause your opinion is objectively wrong on this one.
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Matts4313
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 31156
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of 12
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| TheStarStillShines wrote: | I just really despise it when people who disagree with you can only respond my making a snide remark like, "I can't take you seriously anymore."
It's o.k. to disagree, but at least make an attempt to explain why you disagree. |
Meh, I thought I put a smiley face at the end of that comment. I tend not to argue things like "water is wet", "Grass in Green", "Austin is better than Harvin"... Its all pretty much common sense 
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TheStarStillShines
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 8283
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Matts4313 wrote: | | TheStarStillShines wrote: | | Matts4313 wrote: | I cant take you seriously any more.....
Harvin is in no way as good a WR as Austin. |
How is Austin such a superior WR? Harvin is also a good route runner. He, too, has the ability to run after the catch. He can catch short passes and go deep. His hands are also very good.
Add in his other skills - punt returner, ability to also come out of the backfield, running ability - and he's a multi-dimensional thread the team could really use on offence. In addition, he would be a great complement to Bryant and Witten with his ability to work the middle part of the field as well as the deep seem.
So instead of questioning me, maybe take off your rose-coloured Cowboys glasses off once in a while and try to actually be objective. |
Because Austin is ~30-40 lbs heavier, at least 2-3 inches taller and a significantly better deep threat. He is also a bigger playmaker at the WR position, with more touchdowns and long catches. On top of that, his injury will heal itself and he will be 100%. Harvin will likely never complete a season due to his chronic head issues.
As far as a kick return, Austin did his fair share (and was pretty good at it too) of KR when he was a back up. Harvin just does it more, likely to supplement the fact that he #2 WR in the NFL.
It doesnt take Cowboys Glasses to realize Austin>Harvin. So, I will question you. Cause your opinion is objectively wrong on this one. |
Height and weight aren't starting points for arguing why a player is a better WR than another player. If that was the case, then Wes Welker, Steve Smith, Victor Cruz, and Deshean Jackson shouldn't be in the NFL let alone consider four of the best WRs in the game. It's a poor argument.
I don't think Austin is a better deep threat than Harvin. Both can go deep. Austin has had the benefit of having a QB that can get him the ball. And while Austin was a good KR, he doesn't compare to Harvin in this category. Harvin is a threat to score a TD every time he touches the football.
The other reason why I would take Harvin is age. He's nearly four years younger, and he and Bryant would make a great duo for years to come. Bryant with his physical approach and ability to work the sidelines and Harvin working the middle of the field, the seams, as well as able to go long.
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Matts4313
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 31156
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of 12
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| TheStarStillShines wrote: |
Height and weight aren't starting points for arguing why a player is a better WR than another player. If that was the case, then Wes Welker, Steve Smith, Victor Cruz, and Deshean Jackson shouldn't be in the NFL let alone consider four of the best WRs in the game. It's a poor argument. |
You are kidding, no? Look at the best WR's in the NFL:
Andrea Johnson - Over 6' AND 200 lbs
Calvin Johnson - Over 6' AND 200 lbs
Larry Fitz - Over 6' AND 200 lbs
Victor Cruz - Over 6' AND 200 lbs
Roddy White - Over 6' AND 200 lbs
Jordy Nelson - Over 6' AND 200 lbs
Brandon Marshal - Over 6' AND 200 lbs
Hakeem Nicks - Over 6' AND 200 lbs
Dwayne Bowe - Over 6' AND 200 lbs
M Colston - Over 6' AND 200 lbs
Vincent Jackson - Over 6' AND 200 lbs
AJ Green - Over 6' AND 200 lbs
Dwayne Bowe - Over 6' AND 200 lbs
^^^^^^Most of them are 6'3 215lbs or bigger
In the top 15 WRs last year in yards- 3 do not make the list
Wes Welker
Steve Smith
Mike Wallace => Who is 6 foot, 199 lbs
And I am sure you have NEVER, EVER heard of a players draft stock drop because they are too small. You are right, size doesnt matter; at least thats what Slams wifes tells him.
| TheStarStillShines wrote: | | I don't think Austin is a better deep threat than Harvin. Both can go deep. Austin has had the benefit of having a QB that can get him the ball. And while Austin was a good KR, he doesn't compare to Harvin in this category. Harvin is a threat to score a TD every time he touches the football. |
Even with Kitna at QB, who cant throw further than my grandmother, Austin Averaged almost 2 more yards PER catch. As for KR, Harvin is better. But I will take Austins more TOTAL TDs (and less fumbles) any day. Seeing as the object of a WR is to score points and all.
| TheStarStillShines wrote: |
The other reason why I would take Harvin is age. He's nearly four years younger, and he and Bryant would make a great duo for years to come. Bryant with his physical approach and ability to work the sidelines and Harvin working the middle of the field, the seams, as well as able to go long. |
Harvins career could be cut short any day due to his head issues. He is also a midget, and they tend to retire sooner than the big fella's. Austin works the middle and the deep ball plenty well enough and he has great chemistry with Romo.
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TheStarStillShines
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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Not all the players you listed are over 6' tall (see below). Harvin is hardly a midget at 5'11", 184. Other players of comparable size:
Greg Jennings
Victor Cruz (he's 6', 200 - he's not over 6' tall)
Roddy White (6', 211 - he, too, isn't over 6' tall)
Nate Washington (6'1, 177)
Deshean Jackson
Mike Wallace (6', 199)
Antonio Brown (5'10, 180)
Steve Smith
Jeremy Maclin (6', 198)
Of the 11 leading receivers in terms of catches, 4 were WRs that were 6' tall or under - 5 if you count Darren Sproles (but he's a RB, so he doesn't count). Three were TEs. Three were WRs over 6'3".
In terms of yardage, four of the top-10 receivers were 6' or under, four were over 6'3", and 2 were TEs.
In terms of YPR, four of the top-10 were 6' tall or under.
Two of the best WRs to ever play the game were slight "midgets" - Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne.
Big WRs will still be preferred, but with the changes in the passing game and the pass interference rules shorter, quicker WRs are becoming important parts of teams' offences. This isn't to say a team should have just short, quick WRs, but you need a mix of big WRs and quick, short WRs. And I'll say it again, using size and weight to make a point is not as important in today's NFL, and I just showed you a number of WRs who don't fit the prototype.
Now, TEs, that's a different story.
As for Kitna, he had a pretty good 9 games with the Boys. Austin wasn't the only one who excelled with Kitna, but Bryant also broke out with Kitna under centre.
Austin's chemistry with Romo is a good point, but we saw last year that Romo can develop chemistry with new WRs (see Robinson). I think Romo could post up even better numbers with a quick WR like Harvin working the middle, the slot, and the seams. We'll never know, though.
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ware94
Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 1232
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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You have to remember: the #3 receiver in Dallas is actually the #4 receiver. If Harvin actually becomes the #3 target, who becomes #4? Bryant? Austin? Witten?
I'm sure you can find pros and cons for a swap of Austin and Harvin, but personally, I'll stick with the chemistry of the Romo/Austin combo and root for an Andre Holmes prove themselves worthy of a shot.
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MightyMouse07
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 27305
Location: Sloville
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Don't let Matt tell half the story. Harvin hasn't had migrane issues I'm nearly two years. He has only missed 3 games in 3 years.
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Tony7188
Joined: 02 Jan 2011
Posts: 2519
Location: Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ware94 wrote: | You have to remember: the #3 receiver in Dallas is actually the #4 receiver. If Harvin actually becomes the #3 target, who becomes #4? Bryant? Austin? Witten?
I'm sure you can find pros and cons for a swap of Austin and Harvin, but personally, I'll stick with the chemistry of the Romo/Austin combo and root for an Andre Holmes prove themselves worthy of a shot. |
Does it matter who becomes the #4 reciever on the team? Percy Harvin has had minor off the field issues and sounds like he wants to be treated fairly, paid well for his services and be on a winning team. Nothing wrong with that.
I would much rather have a proven playmaker at WR then a WR with Patrick Crayton speed (Holmes).
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| Fender wrote: | | I agree. At some point people have to stop assigning blame of personnel decisions that go wrong to the person responsible for personnel decisions. |
Last edited by Tony7188 on Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tony7188
Joined: 02 Jan 2011
Posts: 2519
Location: Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| TheStarStillShines wrote: |
Austin's chemistry with Romo is a good point, but we saw last year that Romo can develop chemistry with new WRs (see Robinson). I think Romo could post up even better numbers with a quick WR like Harvin working the middle, the slot, and the seams. We'll never know, though. |
It sure would be a sight to see. Our elusive, quick release QB with a quick playmaking WR like Harvin... and he would be one of many
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| Fender wrote: | | I agree. At some point people have to stop assigning blame of personnel decisions that go wrong to the person responsible for personnel decisions. |
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pierrepet
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 5799
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:32 am Post subject: |
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I would not even consider trading Austin for Harvin. It is much more difficult, in my opinion, to find a receiver like Austin than it is to find a slot receiver. I think too many people have forgot about Austin's talent due to his recent injuries. Not to mention, Austin seems to have much better character than Harvin.
THe KR and PR abilities would be nice and are desperately needed, but there is no way I would even consider that. Again, if Dallas wanted to pay big money to a #3 WR, they would have kept Robinson. |
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waremd
Joined: 27 Jan 2012
Posts: 933
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| TheStarStillShines wrote: | | htfryar wrote: | | TheStarStillShines wrote: | | I would deal Austin for Harvin in a heartbeat. |
Really? Why? Austin is a legitimate Top 10-15 WR. Harvin, not so much. |
I wouldn't say Austin is a legitimate top-10 or -15 WR in the NFL. Definitely not top-10, and he might eek into the top-15. Anyway...
Harvin is 24 years old. Austin will be 28 next week.
Harvin is a multi-dimensional threat, as he can return kickoffs and punts, run the football out of the backfield, and play inside or outside.
Harvin has an issue with migraines, but Austin has hamstring issues.
So, yeah, I would take Harvin over Austin. |
What??!... I don't even.
In no way shape or form is Harvin even on the same level as Miles and his hamstring issue were from not working out hard enough during the strike.
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Baixis
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 1432
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| Tony7188 wrote: | | DWARE94BALLIN wrote: | | if he would take 5 or 6 years 30 million to be our #3 wr and be full time KR and PR I would do it in a heartbeat for a 2nd or lower. That would allow Dez to focus on being the receiver we think he can be. That would be a real scary offense Dez, Miles, Percy, and Witten. Salary cap wise probly not a smart move, but Jerry knows how to keep his players happy. |
I was thinking a 4th or 3rd at best for Harvin. Dallas can probably sign him to a pretty good deal (4-6 mill) and it instantly solves two problems at once, #3 WR and returner |
I would do this in a heartbeat, AND pay him! Not only would he be a great #3, capable of starting WHEN one of our current starters gets hurt and misses time, but he would solve our LONG TIME need for a PR AND A KR. And on top of all this, when Felix Jones leaves after this year, Harvin would easily be able to take over that 'game-changer', 'change-of-pace', 'playmaker' role that is (or was supposed to be!) Jones'. Hell, I might even give a 2nd for him! |
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DKDALfan
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 1621
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:46 am Post subject: |
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I wouldnt do it. he would walk around as a bad influence the next two years because he's unhappy as the #3 reciever, and then he would just walk when his contract is done. and that is IF he wants to play for Dallas, which I doubt. my guess is that he wants big money and/or a starting job. he is getting none of those two things in Dallas. I sure never would pick Harvin over Austin or Dez..
and don't forget that we do have some young guys on the roster showing a lot of promise, so I don't think that we need to risk destroying the good energy there's in the locker room right now. having Jenkins is risk enough for me..
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Baixis
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 1432
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| DKDALfan wrote: | I wouldnt do it. he would walk around as a bad influence the next two years because he's unhappy as the #3 reciever, and then he would just walk when his contract is done. and that is IF he wants to play for Dallas, which I doubt. my guess is that he wants big money and/or a starting job. he is getting none of those two things in Dallas. I sure never would pick Harvin over Austin or Dez..
and don't forget that we do have some young guys on the roster showing a lot of promise, so I don't think that we need to risk destroying the good energy there's in the locker room right now. having Jenkins is risk enough for me.. |
So maybe do some kind of Jenkins/Harvin swap or a deal that involved Jenkins AND Felix for Harvin and a future pick. Also, we COULD pay him - give him a bigger extension - because he would be filling so many roles that he would be worth it. I think Garrett would give him plenty of playing time to make him happy AND in a couple years, maybe he's actually starting over Austin. |
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DKDALfan
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 1621
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Baixis wrote: | | DKDALfan wrote: | I wouldnt do it. he would walk around as a bad influence the next two years because he's unhappy as the #3 reciever, and then he would just walk when his contract is done. and that is IF he wants to play for Dallas, which I doubt. my guess is that he wants big money and/or a starting job. he is getting none of those two things in Dallas. I sure never would pick Harvin over Austin or Dez..
and don't forget that we do have some young guys on the roster showing a lot of promise, so I don't think that we need to risk destroying the good energy there's in the locker room right now. having Jenkins is risk enough for me.. |
So maybe do some kind of Jenkins/Harvin swap or a deal that involved Jenkins AND Felix for Harvin and a future pick. Also, we COULD pay him - give him a bigger extension - because he would be filling so many roles that he would be worth it. I think Garrett would give him plenty of playing time to make him happy AND in a couple years, maybe he's actually starting over Austin. |
I feel like Jenkins over who ever else we have as CB after Carr, Claiborne and Scandrick is a bigger upgrade then Harvin over the slot recievers we got on the roster. also why would he agree to an contract extension when he likely would be behind Austin and Dez on the depth the chart the next couple of years? he would be unhappy until then. so yes he might be over Austin in a couple of years, but i'm pretty sure that he wants to be a starter now.
but well, I guess that this is more a question about how comfortable you are with the guys we have competing for a chance in the slot when talking about if we should trade for Harvin.
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