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FourThreeMafia
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 40085
Location: East of Sixburgh
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 Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| MightyJoeYoung wrote: | | Dook was blatantly trolling the last two posts. |
Indeed. I almost said something, but figured it didnt really need to be said. But I have no qualms about agreeing with it now that it has been said. 
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| cluelessororke wrote: | | I am going to laugh in your face when they don't even sniff WR until day three of the draft |
Still waiting for your laugh.... |
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Ward4HOF
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 2587
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| FourThreeMafia wrote: | | MightyJoeYoung wrote: | | Dook was blatantly trolling the last two posts. |
Indeed. I almost said something, but figured it didnt really need to be said. But I have no qualms about agreeing with it now that it has been said. |
What are you going to do...
I should've just left it alone from the getgo and realized there was no reason to argue the original post...it pretty much spoke for itself.
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Props to Jamison on the sweet sig!!! |
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kethnaab
Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 6995
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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although dook may have been trolling, an argument can certainly be made that a read-react DE doesn't really warrant a premium draft pick. The characteristics that typically define a premium DL pick are explosiveness and quickness, 2 characteristics that are almost completely irrelevant in a read-react system
in other words
1. A LeBeau-style DE (read-react) does not need explosiveness or quickness to excel
2. A DT/DE that gets drafted early will be both explosive and quick, or he wouldn't get drafted early
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at23steelers
Joined: 05 Mar 2011
Posts: 3721
Location: United States
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| FourThreeMafia wrote: | | MightyJoeYoung wrote: | | Dook was blatantly trolling the last two posts. |
Indeed. I almost said something, but figured it didnt really need to be said. But I have no qualms about agreeing with it now that it has been said. |
Wow, that's a first!! You guys actually agree on something!! |
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Dook
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 2016
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Ward4HOF wrote: | | kethnaab wrote: | | You guys are killing me. There is a huge difference between a LeBeau 34 and a Philips 34 and even a Capers 34 regarding how the DL are used. |
Stop that, no there isn't. 
In all honesty, I think Dook was referring solely to our system and I opened it up to all 3-4 systems, so we were really arguing oranges and apples, to a degree.
So yes, you are right, there is a huge difference in how they man their lines and LBs. Just like a 4-3 has multiple ways to run those systems. But Dook, was meaning the Steelers, and to a degree, he is right about how we empoy or 3-4 DEs as opposed to SF, Houston, AZ, etc. I just took offense when he said that they didn't need to have any other real ability than run defense, and that is incorrect...they do a multitude of different things and there is more to being a 3-4 DE than strength, weight, and height. They are a very valuable foundation to a 3-4 D, regardless of which 3-4 system is run, and they do play a big part in the passing game. They do need to understand and employ different techniques and abilities. I'm no expert, but I know enough to know that they are important to a defense and don't regard them as "2nd class citizens" as it were and can be every bit worth a 1st Rd pick...just like an OG can be if good enough. |
I was referring to the Steelers 3-4, I don't study SF or Houston or Arizona's defenses.
As far as the ability of our 3-4 DE's goes, I think size and strength is pretty much it for them when you compare them to other positions.
Our DE's don't have to drop into coverage, they don't have to develop different pass rush moves, they don't have to take on two blockers, they really only have to be able to hold their ground against a guard and be good tacklers. And if you look at their stats, it shows this. They get a decent amount of tackles but low sack numbers and a few pass knock downs a season.
Now, I'm not saying they're not athletes just that compared to the other players they're pretty low on the ability scale. |
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Dook
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 2016
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| MightyJoeYoung wrote: | | Dook was blatantly trolling the last two posts. |
And what are you doing? Participating in the conversation or just trying to stick your nose in where it doesn't belong?
In America, parents teach their children not to tell on others for minor infractions. |
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Gatoradus
Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 1991
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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One thing that I can ask myself a question and feel okay about it; when drafting a player in 1st round, you want him to be at least top 10, preferly top 5 at his position in the league, that's our standards. Hood is easily in top 10 for 3-4 DEs (weak argument, but if we run 4-3 it may be an entirely different story, maybe not) and I'm satisfied with two 1st round, knowing the fact that it took Aaron Smith 2 or 3 seasons into becoming a starter (am I wrong?) and as if I remember, at his first few years as starter he was decent and when entering his prime that's when he had 8 1/2 sacks at that season (2005 or something?) and then don't forget Keisel, it took him almost 5 years to see quality time on our line.
Point being; it's nice knowing Heyward and Hood both at very young age still can contribute and I'm confident in the fact they will develop into deadly duos for 3-4, maybe good enough for us to make scheme go with their strengths.
Decent defensive coordinators use same playbooks.
good defensive coordinators have good players to make him look good.
great defensive coordinators have on and off years.
elite defensive coordinator (edited: LeBeau) are annually top 3 defensive team in NFL because he adapts, and in this case, I sure hope he adapts to players' strengths. |
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turtle28
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 53126
Location: MD/DC/VA depends on the hr!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with all the cuts but Worilds, although I expect the cap o be raised for next season do they won't have to cut 21 million. I also hope they get Wallace signed to a long term deal so they aren't forced to waste $ franchising him.
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 mike23md
Days until:Minicamp 20; Training camp 64; Eagles @ Redskins 110 RIP SSF |
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FourThreeMafia
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 40085
Location: East of Sixburgh
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| kethnaab wrote: | although dook may have been trolling, an argument can certainly be made that a read-react DE doesn't really warrant a premium draft pick. The characteristics that typically define a premium DL pick are explosiveness and quickness, 2 characteristics that are almost completely irrelevant in a read-react system
in other words
1. A LeBeau-style DE (read-react) does not need explosiveness or quickness to excel
2. A DT/DE that gets drafted early will be both explosive and quick, or he wouldn't get drafted early |
Key word you seem to be overlooking there is NEED. They dont NEED to be explosive and quick.
That doesnt mean its not something that isnt a definite plus in their skillset.
Also, I see this defense changing a good bit. Aaron Smith types of DEs arent going to cut it as much in a pass heavy league. More athletic types of 5 techs and DTs in general will be needed....hence picks like Heyward and Hood.
I also think you sorely undervalue 34 DEs, especially under LeBeau. We have had this discussion before. You seem to think that this is still the early 2000s when there were only like a handful of 34 teams and that quality 34 types are avaiable later in the draft. Im not saying there are no good 5 tech type players in the mid-later rounds, but they arent as common as they were back in those days.
In the end...drafting is about finding the best available players that fit the scheme. If Ziggy Hood or Cameron Heyward turned out to be as good as someone like Aaron Smith or even close to that good....no argument at all could be made that they werent worth a early pick.
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| cluelessororke wrote: | | I am going to laugh in your face when they don't even sniff WR until day three of the draft |
Still waiting for your laugh.... |
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kethnaab
Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 6995
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| FourThreeMafia wrote: | | kethnaab wrote: | although dook may have been trolling, an argument can certainly be made that a read-react DE doesn't really warrant a premium draft pick. The characteristics that typically define a premium DL pick are explosiveness and quickness, 2 characteristics that are almost completely irrelevant in a read-react system
in other words
1. A LeBeau-style DE (read-react) does not need explosiveness or quickness to excel
2. A DT/DE that gets drafted early will be both explosive and quick, or he wouldn't get drafted early |
Key word you seem to be overlooking there is NEED. They dont NEED to be explosive and quick. That doesnt mean its not something that isnt a definite plus in their skillset.
in a read/react system, it's irrelevant
Also, I see this defense changing a good bit. Aaron Smith types of DEs arent going to cut it as much in a pass heavy league. More athletic types of 5 techs and DTs in general will be needed....hence picks like Heyward and Hood.
assuming we let them do what they can do, yes. I sincerely hope you're correct
I also think you sorely undervalue 34 DEs, especially under LeBeau. We have had this discussion before. You seem to think that this is still the early 2000s when there were only like a handful of 34 teams and that quality 34 types are avaiable later in the draft. Im not saying there are no good 5 tech type players in the mid-later rounds, but they arent as common as they were back in those days.
not where I'm coming from at all. It boils down to your last statement, "this defense changing". If it does, then amen, hopefully we'll take the reins off Heyward and Ziggy. Otherwise, they were wasted picks. or more appropriate, we are wasting their talents.
In the end...drafting is about finding the best available players that fit the scheme. If Ziggy Hood or Cameron Heyward turned out to be as good as someone like Aaron Smith or even close to that good....no argument at all could be made that they werent worth a early pick. |
inline. hope you're right about the defense changing.
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MightyJoeYoung
Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 2650
Location: Wakefield, England
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Dook wrote: | | MightyJoeYoung wrote: | | Dook was blatantly trolling the last two posts. |
And what are you doing? Participating in the conversation or just trying to stick your nose in where it doesn't belong?
In America, parents teach their children not to tell on others for minor infractions. |
I partake in my fair share of trolling too around the interwebs so don't get upset. How can my nose not belong on a public message board?
In America, a large % of the population also teach their children that homosexuality is wrong. Also, you seem to have made the assumption that we don't do that in England? I'm not sure, just think it's interesting you would make an assumption on something that is almost impossible to know.
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Dook
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 2016
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:13 am Post subject: |
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http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82a421db/article/available-salarycap-space-for-all-32-nfl-teams
Seems the Steelers are $3.7m under the cap right now this year.
So why can't they do up a quick contract change with Roethlisberger and give him, maybe, $2.7m more this year and $2.7m less next year when we need to clear up some space?
That would put us at about $1m under the cap this year and make us only have to clear $7.3m before the start of the 2013 season. |
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MightyJoeYoung
Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 2650
Location: Wakefield, England
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:25 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps cos they are trying to pay Mike Wallace
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"The King Stay the King" |
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