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nagahide13
Joined: 25 Apr 2008
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Location: Stumptown
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 Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| TheROARisBACK wrote: | He had 11 sacks.. Chill.
11. 6 of which were just swipes that jarred the ball loose. You can't bank on that always working. Especially when it was against mediocre right tackles (1 against a FB).
Against better competition, meh a different story.
He isn't even a Top 10 DE. Borderline 11-15. So no I would rather we not give him 40+. He simply isn't worth it. Not even a complete DE. |
I agree wholeheartedly with all of this. I think he's worth a 5 year 45 mil type contract at most. I think the 3 for 30 was more than fair. He could get more elsewhere, but he won't be worth it.
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FootballPhreak
Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 30706
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| TheROARisBACK wrote: | He had 11 sacks.. Chill.
11. 6 of which were just swipes that jarred the ball loose. You can't bank on that always working. Especially when it was against mediocre right tackles (1 against a FB).
Against better competition, meh a different story.
He isn't even a Top 10 DE. Borderline 11-15. So no I would rather we not give him much more than offered. He simply isn't worth it. Not even a complete DE. |
You know....
You can discredit all you want. He has had forced fumbles his entire career. This is nothing new for him. Moreso it is a great part of his game. One of the reasons he IS worth the money. He has also gotten better every year since he has joined the league. Goes to coachability and is a great sign when evaluating a great player.
He also had many sacks taken away that should have been sacks, why not mention that?
You admit that he is a top 11-15 DE and he is asking for moneys in accordance with exactly that, not more. So why aren't you willing to pay him exactly what you think he is worth?
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Louis Friend
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
Posts: 7134
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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1. My outlook on Cliffs contract has NOTHING to do with LoJack or Willie. Yes, if he leaves the Lions, we'll have to find a replacement, that doesn't nessecarily mean I think either of those guys is that replacement. Pointing out that Cliff had better stats than those two does not help your case. You're arguing a point that shouldn't even be apart of the discussion.
2. Yes, Avril had sacks taken away, due to penalties that were his own mental errors. How is that supposed to work in his favor? Do we count sacks Suh would have gotten last year if opposing QBs didn't get rid of the ball quickly, including throwing it away? Do we count first downs we would have gotten if we didn't get penalties setting us back? Almost stats are even more useless than regular stats out of context.
3. Just because Avril has been one of our best defensive players, while the team has been trying to field a complete team, doesn't mean he's actually a top NFL player. He's a good starter. He's not a star. The deal the Lions offers was fair. He's worth $10M per. But reportedly, that wasn't nearly enough for Cliff. That's where I start not wanting the Lions to sign him.
4. Yes, I'd love to see Avril locked up long term. But not at the detriment to the rest of the team. He's not a franchise QB, or Calvin Johnson. He's not a top value who's irreplacable. Is he good? Hell yes. Is he a "must have"? No. Not for "several million dollars" above what the Lions offered.
5. Cliff Avril has now stated that he's unsure if he'll sign the tender and show up to training camp. For a guy who keeps telling everyone it's just business, he's not acting very professionally at the moment. You didn't hear Calvin or Tulloch discuss their deals this offseason, until they were done. |
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FootballPhreak
Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 30706
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Louis Friend wrote: | | 1. My outlook on Cliffs contract has NOTHING to do with LoJack or Willie. Yes, if he leaves the Lions, we'll have to find a replacement, that doesn't nessecarily mean I think either of those guys is that replacement. Pointing out that Cliff had better stats than those two does not help your case. You're arguing a point that shouldn't even be apart of the discussion. |
Agreed
| Louis Friend wrote: | | 2. Yes, Avril had sacks taken away, due to penalties that were his own mental errors. How is that supposed to work in his favor? Do we count sacks Suh would have gotten last year if opposing QBs didn't get rid of the ball quickly, including throwing it away? Do we count first downs we would have gotten if we didn't get penalties setting us back? Almost stats are even more useless than regular stats out of context. |
But it IS OK to discredit the sacks he did get? It goes both ways and that was my only point.
| Louis Friend wrote: | | 3. Just because Avril has been one of our best defensive players, while the team has been trying to field a complete team, doesn't mean he's actually a top NFL player. He's a good starter. He's not a star. The deal the Lions offers was fair. He's worth $10M per. But reportedly, that wasn't nearly enough for Cliff. That's where I start not wanting the Lions to sign him. |
So he is worth 10per for 3 years, but not for 4 or 5 years? Is it because he is so old you expect his play to drop off?
| Louis Friend wrote: | | 4. Yes, I'd love to see Avril locked up long term. But not at the detriment to the rest of the team. He's not a franchise QB, or Calvin Johnson. He's not a top value who's irreplacable. Is he good? Hell yes. Is he a "must have"? No. Not for "several million dollars" above what the Lions offered. |
Once again, the money is in line, he just wants more guaranteed money. So this argument is moot.
| Louis Friend wrote: | | 5. Cliff Avril has now stated that he's unsure if he'll sign the tender and show up to training camp. For a guy who keeps telling everyone it's just business, he's not acting very professionally at the moment. You didn't hear Calvin or Tulloch discuss their deals this offseason, until they were done. |
Agree completely. I do feel he has been a big baby throughout this process. It is very unfortunate. However, he is a football player thankfully and not a publicist. I do wish he would leave the public comments to his publicist though.
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| Draft_FanAddict wrote: | | If that doesn't concern you, I don't know what would...a missing head? |
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diehardlionfan
Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 21517
Location: Ottawa
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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When it comes to the cap I have faith in Lewands judgement.
When it comes to valuing players in the Detroit Lions organization and what they offer the franchise I value Mayhews judgement.
If Avril doesn't want to sign, so be it. If he chooses to stay at home this year, so be it.
I trust Mayhew and his valuation a great deal more than Avril's agent and his demands. Next year Avril will no doubt get a contract that meets his needs as no doubt a franchise will break the bank. That doesn't mean Mayhew should stray from his model of rebuilding the franchise.
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TL-TwoWinsAway
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 24074
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| nagahide13 wrote: | | TheROARisBACK wrote: | He had 11 sacks.. Chill.
11. 6 of which were just swipes that jarred the ball loose. You can't bank on that always working. Especially when it was against mediocre right tackles (1 against a FB).
Against better competition, meh a different story.
He isn't even a Top 10 DE. Borderline 11-15. So no I would rather we not give him 40+. He simply isn't worth it. Not even a complete DE. |
I agree wholeheartedly with all of this. I think he's worth a 5 year 45 mil type contract at most. I think the 3 for 30 was more than fair. He could get more elsewhere, but he won't be worth it. |
Yeah, Roar summed it all up beautifully.
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| kenney wrote: | | Stafford without Calvin Johnson is a mediocre QB |
- Said on 8/16/2012. |
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FootballPhreak
Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 30706
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | | nagahide13 wrote: | | TheROARisBACK wrote: | He had 11 sacks.. Chill.
11. 6 of which were just swipes that jarred the ball loose. You can't bank on that always working. Especially when it was against mediocre right tackles (1 against a FB).
Against better competition, meh a different story.
He isn't even a Top 10 DE. Borderline 11-15. So no I would rather we not give him 40+. He simply isn't worth it. Not even a complete DE. |
I agree wholeheartedly with all of this. I think he's worth a 5 year 45 mil type contract at most. I think the 3 for 30 was more than fair. He could get more elsewhere, but he won't be worth it. |
Yeah, Roar summed it all up beautifully. |
Ya, a one sided argument leaving out many facts WOULD be the argument you agree with most.
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| Draft_FanAddict wrote: | | If that doesn't concern you, I don't know what would...a missing head? |
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stylish313
Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 13773
Location: Flat Rock, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | | nagahide13 wrote: | | TheROARisBACK wrote: | He had 11 sacks.. Chill.
11. 6 of which were just swipes that jarred the ball loose. You can't bank on that always working. Especially when it was against mediocre right tackles (1 against a FB).
Against better competition, meh a different story.
He isn't even a Top 10 DE. Borderline 11-15. So no I would rather we not give him 40+. He simply isn't worth it. Not even a complete DE. |
I agree wholeheartedly with all of this. I think he's worth a 5 year 45 mil type contract at most. I think the 3 for 30 was more than fair. He could get more elsewhere, but he won't be worth it. |
Yeah, Roar summed it all up beautifully. |
Yeah, I like the way he discredited Avril's 6 forced fumbles, something he's been doing his entire career. That was awesome.
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TheROARisBACK
Joined: 22 Jan 2011
Posts: 3137
Location: Joe on the sig
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| FootballPhreak wrote: |
He also had many sacks taken away that should have been sacks, why not mention that? |
Why bring it up? They weren't sacks they, they were horse collar tackles.
| Quote: | | You admit that he is a top 11-15 DE and he is asking for moneys in accordance with exactly that, not more. So why aren't you willing to pay him exactly what you think he is worth? |
I said borderline, but a few that are in that range:
Jason Babin 5 year/27 million
Ray Edwards 5 year/ 30 million
Robert Mathis 4 year/36 million
John Abraham 3 year/16.7 million
Justin Tuck 5 year/30 million
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ManeLine
Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Posts: 3550
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see why CLiff would turn that down. 10 million a year with 20 million guaranteed is a good deal for him. Now, what if he gets hurt? Has a down season? The risk outweighs the reward here IMO. Hopefully it works out for him and the Lions in the end though.
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FootballPhreak
Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 30706
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| TheROARisBACK wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: |
He also had many sacks taken away that should have been sacks, why not mention that? |
Why bring it up? They weren't sacks they, they were horse collar tackles.
| Quote: | | You admit that he is a top 11-15 DE and he is asking for moneys in accordance with exactly that, not more. So why aren't you willing to pay him exactly what you think he is worth? |
I said borderline, but a few that are in that range:
Jason Babin 5 year/27 million
Ray Edwards 5 year/ 30 million
Robert Mathis 4 year/36 million
John Abraham 3 year/16.7 million
Justin Tuck 5 year/30 million
Ray McDonald 5 year/20 million |
Awesome.
Bring up a few that were signed before they proved their value. A few that are CLEARLY not on the same level. A few that are close to social security. And ALL were signed before rookie scale was in place raising FA contracts. And all were signed before the cap went up a bit more making contracts a bit more expensive.
A top 20 player will get a top 10 contract. A top 5 player will ask for the top contract ever. It is the nature of raising salaries. In 3 years, 10per would be right in line with the type of contract you are sourcing.
And you cannot discredit the stats he did get without giving credit for the stats that should have been. That is what you call a one-sided argument and tunnel vision.
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| Draft_FanAddict wrote: | | If that doesn't concern you, I don't know what would...a missing head? |
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Louis Friend
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
Posts: 7134
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| FootballPhreak wrote: | | Louis Friend wrote: | | 1. My outlook on Cliffs contract has NOTHING to do with LoJack or Willie. Yes, if he leaves the Lions, we'll have to find a replacement, that doesn't nessecarily mean I think either of those guys is that replacement. Pointing out that Cliff had better stats than those two does not help your case. You're arguing a point that shouldn't even be apart of the discussion. |
Agreed |
Glad we agree here.
| FootballPhreak wrote: | | Louis Friend wrote: | | 2. Yes, Avril had sacks taken away, due to penalties that were his own mental errors. How is that supposed to work in his favor? Do we count sacks Suh would have gotten last year if opposing QBs didn't get rid of the ball quickly, including throwing it away? Do we count first downs we would have gotten if we didn't get penalties setting us back? Almost stats are even more useless than regular stats out of context. |
But it IS OK to discredit the sacks he did get? It goes both ways and that was my only point. |
I personally, have not discredited the sacks Avril has gotten, but again, I think people are trying to put them into context. Yes Avril has gotten better each season. but his stats rose considerably when the D-line was overhauled. I think it's fair to question of how much it rose due to his improvement compared to the attention of those around him.
| FootballPhreak wrote: | | Louis Friend wrote: | | 3. Just because Avril has been one of our best defensive players, while the team has been trying to field a complete team, doesn't mean he's actually a top NFL player. He's a good starter. He's not a star. The deal the Lions offers was fair. He's worth $10M per. But reportedly, that wasn't nearly enough for Cliff. That's where I start not wanting the Lions to sign him. |
So he is worth 10per for 3 years, but not for 4 or 5 years? Is it because he is so old you expect his play to drop off? |
I have no issue with a 4 yr deal or even a 5 year deal, IF the Lions are invested in him long term. I can understand why they would be hesitant. Well tbh, two main reasons come to mind.
1. Going back to the self-improvement vs surrounding cast... will he live up to the deal long term once we start replacing some of the vets next to him? If not, that can come
2. With the cap being influx over the next few years, maybe the Lions aren't sure it's going to increase as much as predicted and want to cover their tales from a big contract in the final season or so that might hinder their ability.
Again, these are my reasons I understand why the lions aren't jumping to sign him to a long contract.
| FootballPhreak wrote: | | Louis Friend wrote: | | 4. Yes, I'd love to see Avril locked up long term. But not at the detriment to the rest of the team. He's not a franchise QB, or Calvin Johnson. He's not a top value who's irreplacable. Is he good? Hell yes. Is he a "must have"? No. Not for "several million dollars" above what the Lions offered. |
Once again, the money is in line, he just wants more guaranteed money. So this argument is moot. |
I have seen nothing about gauranteed money, just that the dollars are considerably off from the $10M per that was offered last. You would assume the gaurantee would increse with an increse in contract overall, but nothing has been said about just gaurantees. I'm not sure how much more of $30 Million contract he expects to get gauranteed than 67% of it.
| FootballPhreak wrote: | | Louis Friend wrote: | | 5. Cliff Avril has now stated that he's unsure if he'll sign the tender and show up to training camp. For a guy who keeps telling everyone it's just business, he's not acting very professionally at the moment. You didn't hear Calvin or Tulloch discuss their deals this offseason, until they were done. |
Agree completely. I do feel he has been a big baby throughout this process. It is very unfortunate. However, he is a football player thankfully and not a publicist. I do wish he would leave the public comments to his publicist though. |
Again, I'm not saying Cliff is a bad guy, by all means, he has the right to get the best deal possible for him. But at some point, he needs to take a step back and analyze not only the money on the table, but how his antics in the media are showing him in an unflattering light. |
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Louis Friend
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
Posts: 7134
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| FootballPhreak wrote: | | TheROARisBACK wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: |
He also had many sacks taken away that should have been sacks, why not mention that? |
Why bring it up? They weren't sacks they, they were horse collar tackles.
| Quote: | | You admit that he is a top 11-15 DE and he is asking for moneys in accordance with exactly that, not more. So why aren't you willing to pay him exactly what you think he is worth? |
I said borderline, but a few that are in that range:
Jason Babin 5 year/27 million
Ray Edwards 5 year/ 30 million
Robert Mathis 4 year/36 million
John Abraham 3 year/16.7 million
Justin Tuck 5 year/30 million
Ray McDonald 5 year/20 million |
Awesome.
Bring up a few that were signed before they proved their value. A few that are CLEARLY not on the same level. A few that are close to social security. And ALL were signed before rookie scale was in place raising FA contracts. And all were signed before the cap went up a bit more making contracts a bit more expensive.
A top 20 player will get a top 10 contract. A top 5 player will ask for the top contract ever. It is the nature of raising salaries. In 3 years, 10per would be right in line with the type of contract you are sourcing.
And you cannot discredit the stats he did get without giving credit for the stats that should have been. That is what you call a one-sided argument and tunnel vision. |
FA contracts increased because of the rookie wage scale. However, the Lions are still paying three massive salaries from before the rookie scale. Their cap situation isn't like other teams. Other teams weren't picking top 2 in 3 out of 4 seasons.
The Lions have to be even more cautious about what they pay out. |
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FootballPhreak
Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 30706
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Avril is a 3rd round pick that has gotten better every year. You expect development from him. You see it and the stats agree. The Dline was overhauled long before last season. Moot argument.
The more guaranteed he wants comes in the form of more years. Not in percentage. 3 years 30/20 guarantee would work out to 5/50/33 guaranteed. That is more money without the percentage increasing or the per year.
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| Draft_FanAddict wrote: | | If that doesn't concern you, I don't know what would...a missing head? |
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LionsFTW
Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 17053
Location: Rock City, Arkansas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| FootballPhreak wrote: | | You admit that he is a top 11-15 DE and he is asking for moneys in accordance with exactly that, not more. So why aren't you willing to pay him exactly what you think he is worth? |
Just because other teams like Carolina is overpaying their overrated DE doesn't mean we have to do the same.
And those other teams overpaying their DE's don't have a 132M dollar WR, a 78M dollar QB and a 68M dollar DT on their team.
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