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FootballPhreak
Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 31365
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 Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | The best part of all of this, Phreak, is YOU are the only one that said something that ridiculous, just the opposite way. You claimed that, if Young was put into the starting lineup, his numbers would drop. No one here claimed the would continue.
If you're going to make bold statements, either back them up or admt you were wrong. |
Once again, I have 50 years of plugging in rotational players as startersto support me.
Claiming they wouldn't suffer is saying he will be better than Avril. Because per snap he was better and so assuming his numbers would not suffer would make him better than all but Babin, Cole, and whoever, erego a top 5 DE.
So there you go. You claimed you never said that, then claimed it again in the same post 
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TL-TwoWinsAway
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 24079
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| FootballPhreak wrote: | | TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | The best part of all of this, Phreak, is YOU are the only one that said something that ridiculous, just the opposite way. You claimed that, if Young was put into the starting lineup, his numbers would drop. No one here claimed the would continue.
If you're going to make bold statements, either back them up or admt you were wrong. |
Once again, I have 50 years of plugging in rotational players as startersto support me.
Claiming they wouldn't suffer is saying he will be better than Avril. Because per snap he was better and so assuming his numbers would not suffer would make him better than all but Babin, Cole, and whoever, erego a top 5 DE.
So there you go. You claimed you never said that, then claimed it again in the same post |
... huh? When did anyone claim they wouldn't suffer, and how does 'not suffer' equal 'better than'? What are you talking about?
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LionsChamps201?
Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 371
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| stylish313 wrote: | | TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | | stylish313 wrote: | | TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | | stylish313 wrote: | | It's okay for MJD to holdout, but Avril is a problem for doing it??? |
MJD is actually a top player at his position. Avril is not. |
That's nobody's point though. Most people just have a problem with holdouts in general. But they seem to making an exception for MJD, while holding it against Avril.
Classic Lions Forum double standard. I hate the lack of consistency |
Woah. Uh... no. People have a problem that Avril is holding out for more money. That he wants a long-term deal that pays him more than he's worth.
MJD has (literally) carried the Jaguars, and is one of the top RBs in the NFL. He wants more money. I understand it. Avril is in an ideal scheme for his skillset, has a great supporting cast and is turning down reasonable offers at this point.
Lions' fans have a problem with that. I agree. |
1. MJD is already making $8M, how much more do you give an aging RB???
| diehardlionfan wrote: | | Personally I don't like holdouts and I believe it's the wrong way to conduct business. It wouldn't bother me a bit if they let him sit all year. |
| LionsChamps201? wrote: | | Avril wont even commit to this team past this year. So why shy away from a guy who may "fade after dominating after a while" and keep a guy were just going to loose next year? |
Here's two people that clearly have a problem with the fact Avril's holding out. Quit trying to pretend everyone agree's with your line of thinking, ya know others do actually have their own POV's.
And LionsChamps201 is clearly applying a double-standard here. |
If you actually look at what I said, I never criticized Avril for holding out. I simple stated the fact that he may not be here after next season because the Lions and Avril could not come to terms on a long term agreement.
I pointed this out because people were saying "MJD has only 3 good seasons left in him" yet we dont know if Avril will even be a Lion a year from now. I dont hate Avril for any reason, I simple dont think he's worth what hes asking and if we can trade him for maybe the best runningback in the game...then we should
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LionsChamps201?
Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 371
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| DrRay11 wrote: | | stylish313 wrote: | | TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | | stylish313 wrote: | | TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | His contract is right in line with what he deserves. I can't believe you are all over paying a top 5 RB #1 in the NFL money, but can't swallow paying a young up and coming top 15 DE Top 10 money  |
MJD is an unquestionably better RB than Avril is DE. MJD deserves to be paid (not capped; paid) like a top 5 NFL RB. Avril does not deserve top 10 DE money. |
So you'd be fine paying Avril 5 years, $25M, with a $30 singing bonus, since he'd be paid as a top #40 DE instead of top #10??? |
No, I wouldn't be fine with paying Avril a big singing bonus in the first place because I'm not an idiot. |
Well. That says it all. Peace. |
If I'm an organization, I'm not giving big signing bonuses: period. That's been my entire point in all of this: if you want the money to count over the entirety of his contract, make his contract reflect that. Don't give him a bonus, then say "Well, yeah, you're still "making" that money, even though we gave it all to you before". No. |
What??? Bonuses are a primary tool used by organizations to fit players under the cap. |
Yeah.... wow. |
I think were all getting off track and missing the point here. It really doesnt matter how much money he makes NOW or how much of that money in wrapped up in signing bonuses , or if that bonus was a reward for the years prior to the year he signed or whatever. The bottom line is even if we give him what Tennessee gave Chris Johnson last year he will still make less than the $10.6 million tag that Avril is refusing to sign. So we save money regardless.
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FootballPhreak
Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 31365
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| LionsChamps201? wrote: | | DrRay11 wrote: | | stylish313 wrote: | | TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | | stylish313 wrote: | | TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | His contract is right in line with what he deserves. I can't believe you are all over paying a top 5 RB #1 in the NFL money, but can't swallow paying a young up and coming top 15 DE Top 10 money |
MJD is an unquestionably better RB than Avril is DE. MJD deserves to be paid (not capped; paid) like a top 5 NFL RB. Avril does not deserve top 10 DE money. |
So you'd be fine paying Avril 5 years, $25M, with a $30 singing bonus, since he'd be paid as a top #40 DE instead of top #10??? |
No, I wouldn't be fine with paying Avril a big singing bonus in the first place because I'm not an idiot. |
Well. That says it all. Peace. |
If I'm an organization, I'm not giving big signing bonuses: period. That's been my entire point in all of this: if you want the money to count over the entirety of his contract, make his contract reflect that. Don't give him a bonus, then say "Well, yeah, you're still "making" that money, even though we gave it all to you before". No. |
What??? Bonuses are a primary tool used by organizations to fit players under the cap. |
Yeah.... wow. |
I think were all getting off track and missing the point here. It really doesnt matter how much money he makes NOW or how much of that money in wrapped up in signing bonuses , or if that bonus was a reward for the years prior to the year he signed or whatever. The bottom line is even if we give him what Tennessee gave Chris Johnson last year he will still make less than the $10.6 million tag that Avril is refusing to sign. So we save money regardless. |
Ever wonder why a top 15 DE garners more money than a top RB?
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| Draft_FanAddict wrote: | | If that doesn't concern you, I don't know what would...a missing head? |
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LionsChamps201?
Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 371
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| FootballPhreak wrote: | | TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | | Sllim Pickens wrote: | | TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | | stylish313 wrote: | | LionsFTW wrote: | | When MJD signed his contract, he just started running the ball without Freddy Taylor. MJD was clearly in Freddy's shadow, and the contract shows that. MJD out produced that contract for 3 straight years by playing 3 years of consistent dominant football. |
MJD costing the Jags $8M per season doesn't show me he was in anybody's shadow. He has costed the Jags a cap hit of a top #5 running back, every year he has been on that contract; and will be still costing them what a top #5 RB would in each of his next two. |
... huh? Over his first three years in the league, he was Fred Jackson's backup. He then received a new contract (in 2009) and became the lead back (in 2009). He wasn't receiving "$8M per season" when Jackson was on the team.
It doesn't matter what MJD is costing the team. He was deserving of the bonus at the time. He is only GETTING PAID $4.5M right now. He is underpaid. |
But with the bonus his first year he was vastly overpaid, so it works itself out. |
No, he was rewarded for three years of being vastly underpaid. |
No moreso than the better RBs making more money than him. |
I'm talking about his first three years in the league. He was a great player on the verge of breaking out, and was getting paid next-to-nothing. The bonus was a reward for his first three years in the league. His contract is now outdated, and doesn't match what he is. |
And I am talking about those better RBs first 3 and even 4 years in some cases.
His contract is right in line with what he deserves. I can't believe you are all over paying a top 5 RB #1 in the NFL money, but can't swallow paying a young up and coming top 15 DE Top 10 money |
http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/defensive-end/
His tag agreement is top 5 money for DEs, and its greater than #1 RB money.
The hard thing about saying Avril is a top 15, top 10 DE is that only half the teams in the NFL run a 4-3 (maybe less than half now). So he may be a top 10 DE, he may be a top 5 DE, but if only half of the teams today run 4-3 what does that really mean?
Also, MJD did what he did with pretty much no help. The Jags have the worse pass game and everyone knows it. Defenses key on him, yet he still led the league in rushing last year. Avril is just the opposite. There are so many good DL on this team (including Avril) and Avril benefits from that. So, IMO, Avril's s stats are inflated and MJD is capable of doing even better
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stylish313
Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 13818
Location: Flat Rock, Mi
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| LionsChamps201? wrote: | | DrRay11 wrote: | | stylish313 wrote: | | TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | | stylish313 wrote: | | TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | His contract is right in line with what he deserves. I can't believe you are all over paying a top 5 RB #1 in the NFL money, but can't swallow paying a young up and coming top 15 DE Top 10 money |
MJD is an unquestionably better RB than Avril is DE. MJD deserves to be paid (not capped; paid) like a top 5 NFL RB. Avril does not deserve top 10 DE money. |
So you'd be fine paying Avril 5 years, $25M, with a $30 singing bonus, since he'd be paid as a top #40 DE instead of top #10??? |
No, I wouldn't be fine with paying Avril a big singing bonus in the first place because I'm not an idiot. |
Well. That says it all. Peace. |
If I'm an organization, I'm not giving big signing bonuses: period. That's been my entire point in all of this: if you want the money to count over the entirety of his contract, make his contract reflect that. Don't give him a bonus, then say "Well, yeah, you're still "making" that money, even though we gave it all to you before". No. |
What??? Bonuses are a primary tool used by organizations to fit players under the cap. |
Yeah.... wow. |
I think were all getting off track and missing the point here. It really doesnt matter how much money he makes NOW or how much of that money in wrapped up in signing bonuses , or if that bonus was a reward for the years prior to the year he signed or whatever. The bottom line is even if we give him what Tennessee gave Chris Johnson last year he will still make less than the $10.6 million tag that Avril is refusing to sign. So we save money regardless. |
If you backtrack through the conversation, you'll see that we've been arguing with TL about why it was wrong for MJD to hold out against Jacksonville, since he's costing them so much already.
I see your points, although I don't agree with some of them. We could 're-sign MJD without regard to his signing bonus, since Jacksonville is on the hook for it regardless. And if you believe he's possibly the best RB in the game, then of course he'd be immeasurably more valuable than Avril- but that's where I believe you're ridiculously off-base.
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LionsChamps201?
Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 371
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| stylish313 wrote: | | LionsChamps201? wrote: | | DrRay11 wrote: | | stylish313 wrote: | | TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | | stylish313 wrote: | | TL-TwoWinsAway wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | His contract is right in line with what he deserves. I can't believe you are all over paying a top 5 RB #1 in the NFL money, but can't swallow paying a young up and coming top 15 DE Top 10 money |
MJD is an unquestionably better RB than Avril is DE. MJD deserves to be paid (not capped; paid) like a top 5 NFL RB. Avril does not deserve top 10 DE money. |
So you'd be fine paying Avril 5 years, $25M, with a $30 singing bonus, since he'd be paid as a top #40 DE instead of top #10??? |
No, I wouldn't be fine with paying Avril a big singing bonus in the first place because I'm not an idiot. |
Well. That says it all. Peace. |
If I'm an organization, I'm not giving big signing bonuses: period. That's been my entire point in all of this: if you want the money to count over the entirety of his contract, make his contract reflect that. Don't give him a bonus, then say "Well, yeah, you're still "making" that money, even though we gave it all to you before". No. |
What??? Bonuses are a primary tool used by organizations to fit players under the cap. |
Yeah.... wow. |
I think were all getting off track and missing the point here. It really doesnt matter how much money he makes NOW or how much of that money in wrapped up in signing bonuses , or if that bonus was a reward for the years prior to the year he signed or whatever. The bottom line is even if we give him what Tennessee gave Chris Johnson last year he will still make less than the $10.6 million tag that Avril is refusing to sign. So we save money regardless. |
If you backtrack through the conversation, you'll see that we've been arguing with TL about why it was wrong for MJD to hold out against Jacksonville, since he's costing them so much already.
I see your points, although I don't agree with some of them. We could 're-sign MJD without regard to his signing bonus, since Jacksonville is on the hook for it regardless. And if you believe he's possibly the best RB in the game, then of course he'd be immeasurably more valuable than Avril- but that's where I believe you're ridiculously off-base. |
So is it that you do not believe that MJD is one of the best RBs in the game or that even though MJD is that good you would rather have Avril anyways? Just for clarification. Because I think that at least right now MJD is probably the #2 RB in the league next to AP. He most likely will remain a top 5 RB for at least 3 more years. Avril is a good DE, but I dont think he's as valuable as MJD
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LionsFTW
Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 17129
Location: Rock City, Arkansas
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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It comes down to this...
Would you rather have Avril and LeShoure or MJD and Young?
MJD and Young would be less expensive, it would add life to MJD, and Young has game time experience... and whether you dislike him or not, the game time experience he has, he's been very productive and will be rushing the passer next to the best DT rotation in the sport.
LeShoure is a pot head, tore his Achilles his rookie year and never took a snap in the NFL. Avril has had one breakout season and is about to cost us more than MJD and Young combined.
I'll take option A.
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Sllim Pickens
Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 17406
Location: Middle of the Mitten
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| LionsFTW wrote: | It comes down to this...
Would you rather have Avril and LeShoure or MJD and Young?
MJD and Young would be less expensive, it would add life to MJD, and Young has game time experience... and whether you dislike him or not, the game time experience he has, he's been very productive and will be rushing the passer next to the best DT rotation in the sport.
LeShoure is a pot head, tore his Achilles his rookie year and never took a snap in the NFL. Avril has had one breakout season and is about to cost us more than MJD and Young combined.
I'll take option A. |
I'd rather trade him to Carolina for Johnathan Stewart if we can sign him long term. He will be cheaper in both trade and contract and may even net us a pick back. Stewart is only a year younger but has half the tread MJD has.
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DetroitWhat
Joined: 02 Jan 2009
Posts: 2298
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| LionsFTW wrote: | It comes down to this...
Would you rather have Avril and LeShoure or MJD and Young?
MJD and Young would be less expensive, it would add life to MJD, and Young has game time experience... and whether you dislike him or not, the game time experience he has, he's been very productive and will be rushing the passer next to the best DT rotation in the sport.
LeShoure is a pot head, tore his Achilles his rookie year and never took a snap in the NFL. Avril has had one breakout season and is about to cost us more than MJD and Young combined.
I'll take option A. |
I'll take that trade as well. |
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LionsFTW
Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 17129
Location: Rock City, Arkansas
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Sllim Pickens wrote: | | LionsFTW wrote: | It comes down to this...
Would you rather have Avril and LeShoure or MJD and Young?
MJD and Young would be less expensive, it would add life to MJD, and Young has game time experience... and whether you dislike him or not, the game time experience he has, he's been very productive and will be rushing the passer next to the best DT rotation in the sport.
LeShoure is a pot head, tore his Achilles his rookie year and never took a snap in the NFL. Avril has had one breakout season and is about to cost us more than MJD and Young combined.
I'll take option A. |
I'd rather trade him to Carolina for Johnathan Stewart if we can sign him long term. He will be cheaper in both trade and contract and may even net us a pick back. Stewart is only a year younger but has half the tread MJD has. |
I dont think Carolina touches Avril after overpaying Charles Johnson last year. They would have to give him pretty much identical contracts amd I dont think they'll put that much money on the DE position when they're already paying a ton of useless money to an injury prone LB unit.
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stylish313
Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 13818
Location: Flat Rock, Mi
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| LionsFTW wrote: | It comes down to this...
Would you rather have Avril and LeShoure or MJD and Young? |
That's what it comes down to in your mind.
I'll say this. Anytime you've gotta bring in someone who's never played in your system, and pay him a huge contract vs. someone who you've already seen successful in your system; it has to make you pause. Especially when you're likely detracting from an area of the football team that you're already weak at; removing your best defensive play-maker
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LionsFTW
Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 17129
Location: Rock City, Arkansas
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| stylish313 wrote: | | LionsFTW wrote: | It comes down to this...
Would you rather have Avril and LeShoure or MJD and Young? |
That's what it comes down to in your mind.
I'll say this. Anytime you've gotta bring in someone who's never played in your system, and pay him a huge contract vs. someone who you've already seen successful in your system; it has to make you pause. Especially when you're likely detracting from an area of the football team that you're already weak at; removing your best defensive play-maker |
Our pass rush is weak? I thought it was our running game that needed help.
You win.
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| YlionsY wrote: | | I hope you get banned so hard you can't walk right for a week. |
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stylish313
Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 13818
Location: Flat Rock, Mi
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| LionsFTW wrote: | | stylish313 wrote: | | LionsFTW wrote: | It comes down to this...
Would you rather have Avril and LeShoure or MJD and Young? |
That's what it comes down to in your mind.
I'll say this. Anytime you've gotta bring in someone who's never played in your system, and pay him a huge contract vs. someone who you've already seen successful in your system; it has to make you pause. Especially when you're likely detracting from an area of the football team that you're already weak at; removing your best defensive play-maker |
Our pass rush is weak? I thought it was our running game that needed help.
You win. |
Our defense is weak, and our DL was weaker in 2011 than it was in 2010(Yes, I win).
Our secondary is crap, and our defense will live on the play of our DL, as it has for the past three years. Logically, if you take away our best defensive playmaker, then yes to me our defense is gonna be weakened. That's my opinion, but hey- people didn't wanna hear my opinion about Tulloch(not you FTW) or Bowers.
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