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Could Usain Bolt surpass Phelp's legacy for GOAT??
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howie102


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

seminoles1 wrote:
Everyone asking for more events for Bolt to do...there's always the long jump. Carl Lewis won the gold in the 100m, 200m, 4x100m, and the long jump in 1984. He could try the 110m hurdles as well.

There are events for Bolt to do, he just doesn't do them.


There may well be other events that he may have a crack at in the future, but there certainly aren't 8 separate events for him to grab a gold in.
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maes


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mse326 wrote:
ianlewis16 wrote:
seminoles1 wrote:
Everyone asking for more events for Bolt to do...there's always the long jump. Carl Lewis won the gold in the 100m, 200m, 4x100m, and the long jump in 1984. He could try the 110m hurdles as well.

There are events for Bolt to do, he just doesn't do them.


there's no way he could just transition into the hurdles. i trained in the hurdles for 7 years, its not something you can pick up this late in his career.


That's kind of the point.

The same would go for a swimmer. You can't just go fly to free or to back or to breast. They are completely different strokes.

So to be so dominant in several different disciplines is incredibly impressive.

Phelps didn't rack up more medals because there are more swimming events, he racked up more medals because he can do more swimming events.

most olympic swimmers seem to have two or so disciplines it seems like, though. when do you see track runners win a 100m then get back on a track and win hurdles? they're completely different, might as well tell Bolt to win in the 100/archery.
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mse326


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maes wrote:
mse326 wrote:
ianlewis16 wrote:
seminoles1 wrote:
Everyone asking for more events for Bolt to do...there's always the long jump. Carl Lewis won the gold in the 100m, 200m, 4x100m, and the long jump in 1984. He could try the 110m hurdles as well.

There are events for Bolt to do, he just doesn't do them.


there's no way he could just transition into the hurdles. i trained in the hurdles for 7 years, its not something you can pick up this late in his career.


That's kind of the point.

The same would go for a swimmer. You can't just go fly to free or to back or to breast. They are completely different strokes.

So to be so dominant in several different disciplines is incredibly impressive.

Phelps didn't rack up more medals because there are more swimming events, he racked up more medals because he can do more swimming events.

most olympic swimmers seem to have two or so disciplines it seems like, though. when do you see track runners win a 100m then get back on a track and win hurdles? they're completely different, might as well tell Bolt to win in the 100/archery.


At an olympic level? Only the top swimmers have more than 1. Most are only good enough in 1 at best.

Think about it like this. Bolt will run the 100, 200, and 4x100. Michael Phelps does that in the fly (same distances and medley relay). He however is also good enough in free to do other relays and in all the strokes to do the 2 most difficult events in the 200 and 400 IMs.

Bolt only runs 2 distances (100 and 200). Phelps swims 3 distances (100, 200, and 400).

There is a reason Phelps has done stuff no one has ever done even in swimming.

Now I'm not saying number of medals/gold medals is definitive. I'm not. Because there is no doubt that I don't put a Ryan Lochte among the group of best ever. But people are being pretty quick to discount Phelps' ridiculous totals because it's swimming.

Bolt could do other events (if had decided to earlier). He could do long jump (like Carl Lewis and Jesse Owens). There have been people to be successful on sprints and hurdles (Colin Jackson was a great hurdler and won gold in 60m dash in European indoors and was part of a silver 4x100 team at worlds; Gail Devers did both on the women's side). Of course it isn't easy. No one is saying it is. But the point is that what Phelps did isn't easy either buy he went out an did it. Bolt decided to stick to shorter sprints and it has worked great, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have done more. It wasn't the lack of events or that the events were so much different compared to the difference in strokes in swimming.
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seminoles1


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maes wrote:
most olympic swimmers seem to have two or so disciplines it seems like, though. when do you see track runners win a 100m then get back on a track and win hurdles? they're completely different, might as well tell Bolt to win in the 100/archery.
What? No they don't. Most Olympic swimmers are specialists in one stroke. Phelps and Lochte are incredibly rare. The fact that Phelps is the best at multiple swimming events from 100m to 400m is insane. Bolt runs two distances. Phelps swims 3 with 4 different strokes.

Carl Lewis did more than just sprint, so I'm not going to give Bolt any kind of pass when being compared to Phelps. There are more events to do and he chooses not to do them. I understand that it would take more work (oh no!) but that's what makes Phelps so incredible.
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maes


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How am I wrong? Look at the top 10 100m runners of all-time, none of them have ever had a medal in anything besides the 100/200/4x100...

But now look at the top swimmers of all-time (I'm going to need help with this); I came up with: Phelps (freestyle, butterfly), Spitz (freestyle, butterfly), Lochte (backstroke, freestyle), Biondi (freestyle, butterfly) and Thorpe (freestyle) from a few searches. All of them have had international success in more than two strokes except for Thorpe.

It's obviously a lot easier to master two strokes than to master a field event and the 100m, as none has done it yet. Carl Lewis was able to do it over a much weaker field, it only took him about 9.9 to win gold, he would have to focus on one event if he wanted to get just one gold now.

Not to mention, track is way bigger than swimming is in the Olympics, which is why I think Bolt is a better Olympian.
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ArodFanboy


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phelps is better at more, but Bolt is by far the best at what he does. That's pretty much it.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mse326 wrote:
Phelps didn't rack up more medals because there are more swimming events, he racked up more medals because he can do more swimming events.


To be fair Phelps was only ever dominant in one stroke (Fly) he was a very good Freestyler and that was more due to endurance, he did not even compete in the 50m of 100m Freestyles and he did not rate a mention in the freestyles in 2012.

Then if you look at most IM'ers their dominant stroke is the fly becasue it is the toughest and to learn and perfect.

Phelps only has one individual gold in Freestyle, he never competed in the Back or Breast strokes - He was an insanely good Flyer and becasue of that was able to become a very good IM'er.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

It is incredibly difficult to compare the two sports mainly becasue there are more swimming variants and two relays that combine the variants.

Can you think who would happen if people started from the blocks ran a flat 100m, then had to run a 100m hurdles, then backwards for 100m and then finish with another flat 100m?
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khodder


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One also needs to think about the impact on the body and the likes of the ankles and knees in particular when comparing something on the track to something in the pool.

It is much much easier to recover from an event in the pool than it is to recover from an event on the track, especially one like the Long Jump that puts incredible stress on the joints.

There is a reason why people don't and cannot combine even the most similar of events like the Long Jump and the Triple Jump, Whereas Phelps can swim so many events and Frankline can come back off a 14 minute rest from a semi-final to win a gold in a final.

Phelps is incredible, but he also competed in a low impact sport that is easier for the body to recover from and a sport that had so many more events for him to compete in.
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mse326


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
mse326 wrote:
Phelps didn't rack up more medals because there are more swimming events, he racked up more medals because he can do more swimming events.


To be fair Phelps was only ever dominant in one stroke (Fly) he was a very good Freestyler and that was more due to endurance, he did not even compete in the 50m of 100m Freestyles and he did not rate a mention in the freestyles in 2012.

Then if you look at most IM'ers their dominant stroke is the fly becasue it is the toughest and to learn and perfect.

Phelps only has one individual gold in Freestyle, he never competed in the Back or Breast strokes - He was an insanely good Flyer and becasue of that was able to become a very good IM'er.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

It is incredibly difficult to compare the two sports mainly becasue there are more swimming variants and two relays that combine the variants.

Can you think who would happen if people started from the blocks ran a flat 100m, then had to run a 100m hurdles, then backwards for 100m and then finish with another flat 100m?


As you said he won gold in the 200 free at Beijing, and he actually did qualify for the 200 free at this olympics but decided to drop it to limit his swims. He may not have been a "sprinter" in free, but he was damn good. He set the WR at Beijing in the 200m and won the race by almost 2 seconds. You can't dominate that race much more than he did. So I don't know that minimizing his free is fair

And while he may not be olympic quality in the back or breast, you can't dominate those races as well as he did without being quality at them. Putting his success in the IM solely on the fly is exaggerating.

_________________________________________


I know it is difficult to compare, and I never said he should be able to have the same amount of medals as Phelps. In fact I said the opposite.

What I said though, is that Bolt only really excells at one discipline. He is great at it, but it is only 1. And it is absolutely possible for a sprinter to have more the one discipline.

I'm not suggesting they have a medley, but he can do more than just run.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bolt could do the 1/2/4 triple if he wanted, of that I have no doubt. But the timing of the events makes it very difficult/impossible to do that anymore. (Bolt has a PB of 45.28 set in 2007). Bolt also holds the WB in the 150m, but that is not a recognised event, nor an olympic event.

There are runners out there capable of doing the 800/1500m double, but the fact is that the 800m semis are less than an hour before the 1500m final so they cannot even attempt it.

Swimming has much better space between events that allow people to compete in numerous events and that combined with the low impact nature of the sport makes it that much easier to compete in more than just the usual combos.

Just to be clear here; If Bolt wanted to run the 400, it would be nearly impossible for him to compete in the 100. If Bolt wanted to compete in the 110 hurdles it would make it nearly impossible for him to compete in the 200.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
Bolt could do the 1/2/4 triple if he wanted, of that I have no doubt. But the timing of the events makes it very difficult/impossible to do that anymore. (Bolt has a PB of 45.28 set in 2007). Bolt also holds the WB in the 150m, but that is not a recognised event, nor an olympic event.

There are runners out there capable of doing the 800/1500m double, but the fact is that the 800m semis are less than an hour before the 1500m final so they cannot even attempt it.

Swimming has much better space between events that allow people to compete in numerous events and that combined with the low impact nature of the sport makes it that much easier to compete in more than just the usual combos.

Just to be clear here; If Bolt wanted to run the 400, it would be nearly impossible for him to compete in the 100. If Bolt wanted to compete in the 110 hurdles it would make it nearly impossible for him to compete in the 200.


I can absolutely guarantee you that running a 400 is far less draining than swimming a 200. Swimming takes so much more out of you than running a race like that does. I've grown up with a pool and swam quite a bit, and ran 8 years of track. Yes, you're exhausted right after running a 200 all-out but within 20 minutes I was fully ready to go for whatever. If he really wanted to, he could do that double. As we saw, he didn't go all out in the 100 until the final, and probably would be able to do the same in the 400, with the finals being a full day apart.

The amount of races that Phelps swims is still far greater than the amount of races that Bolt would run even if he did do the 1,2,4 triple. And if you consider the 400IM, that is SOOOOO much harder than anything you can do in track. I love track and ran for quite a while, but that's a race unrivaled by anything on the track.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fly eagles fly wrote:
khodder wrote:
Bolt could do the 1/2/4 triple if he wanted, of that I have no doubt. But the timing of the events makes it very difficult/impossible to do that anymore. (Bolt has a PB of 45.28 set in 2007). Bolt also holds the WB in the 150m, but that is not a recognised event, nor an olympic event.

There are runners out there capable of doing the 800/1500m double, but the fact is that the 800m semis are less than an hour before the 1500m final so they cannot even attempt it.

Swimming has much better space between events that allow people to compete in numerous events and that combined with the low impact nature of the sport makes it that much easier to compete in more than just the usual combos.

Just to be clear here; If Bolt wanted to run the 400, it would be nearly impossible for him to compete in the 100. If Bolt wanted to compete in the 110 hurdles it would make it nearly impossible for him to compete in the 200.


I can absolutely guarantee you that running a 400 is far less draining than swimming a 200. Swimming takes so much more out of you than running a race like that does. I've grown up with a pool and swam quite a bit, and ran 8 years of track. Yes, you're exhausted right after running a 200 all-out but within 20 minutes I was fully ready to go for whatever. If he really wanted to, he could do that double. As we saw, he didn't go all out in the 100 until the final, and probably would be able to do the same in the 400, with the finals being a full day apart.



Firstly, I'd beg to differ, having been in a similar boat to you. Lucky enough to spend most of my formative years on both.

And there is a significant difference between merely running a 400 and training for the 400, alongside training for a 1/2/jump event. Simply not feasible, at all. The pressures of a hard track, spending hours perfecting the stride/start/jump would wreck your body, whereas a pool will "merely" exhaust you.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fly eagles fly wrote:
khodder wrote:
Bolt could do the 1/2/4 triple if he wanted, of that I have no doubt. But the timing of the events makes it very difficult/impossible to do that anymore. (Bolt has a PB of 45.28 set in 2007). Bolt also holds the WB in the 150m, but that is not a recognised event, nor an olympic event.

There are runners out there capable of doing the 800/1500m double, but the fact is that the 800m semis are less than an hour before the 1500m final so they cannot even attempt it.

Swimming has much better space between events that allow people to compete in numerous events and that combined with the low impact nature of the sport makes it that much easier to compete in more than just the usual combos.

Just to be clear here; If Bolt wanted to run the 400, it would be nearly impossible for him to compete in the 100. If Bolt wanted to compete in the 110 hurdles it would make it nearly impossible for him to compete in the 200.


I can absolutely guarantee you that running a 400 is far less draining than swimming a 200. Swimming takes so much more out of you than running a race like that does. I've grown up with a pool and swam quite a bit, and ran 8 years of track. Yes, you're exhausted right after running a 200 all-out but within 20 minutes I was fully ready to go for whatever. If he really wanted to, he could do that double. As we saw, he didn't go all out in the 100 until the final, and probably would be able to do the same in the 400, with the finals being a full day apart.

The amount of races that Phelps swims is still far greater than the amount of races that Bolt would run even if he did do the 1,2,4 triple. And if you consider the 400IM, that is SOOOOO much harder than anything you can do in track. I love track and ran for quite a while, but that's a race unrivaled by anything on the track.


What I am saying is due to timing competingin in the 100m and 400m on the track in the same olympics is impossible. As is competing in the 200m and 110m Hurdles in the same olympics.

And I was not saying there is less exertion (Swimming 200 is closer to the 800m event than any of the sprints) but more so the physical toll on the joints, there is far more impact on the body on the track than in the pool which over an extended period of training makes it close to impossible to group more than two track events together (Sprint/Jump events, longer distance is different)

I don't want to compare the two sports, what I was saying is that you can compete in 4-8 events at the Olympics and have little crossover of events.

That is impossible to do on the track.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
fly eagles fly wrote:
khodder wrote:
Bolt could do the 1/2/4 triple if he wanted, of that I have no doubt. But the timing of the events makes it very difficult/impossible to do that anymore. (Bolt has a PB of 45.28 set in 2007). Bolt also holds the WB in the 150m, but that is not a recognised event, nor an olympic event.

There are runners out there capable of doing the 800/1500m double, but the fact is that the 800m semis are less than an hour before the 1500m final so they cannot even attempt it.

Swimming has much better space between events that allow people to compete in numerous events and that combined with the low impact nature of the sport makes it that much easier to compete in more than just the usual combos.

Just to be clear here; If Bolt wanted to run the 400, it would be nearly impossible for him to compete in the 100. If Bolt wanted to compete in the 110 hurdles it would make it nearly impossible for him to compete in the 200.


I can absolutely guarantee you that running a 400 is far less draining than swimming a 200. Swimming takes so much more out of you than running a race like that does. I've grown up with a pool and swam quite a bit, and ran 8 years of track. Yes, you're exhausted right after running a 200 all-out but within 20 minutes I was fully ready to go for whatever. If he really wanted to, he could do that double. As we saw, he didn't go all out in the 100 until the final, and probably would be able to do the same in the 400, with the finals being a full day apart.

The amount of races that Phelps swims is still far greater than the amount of races that Bolt would run even if he did do the 1,2,4 triple. And if you consider the 400IM, that is SOOOOO much harder than anything you can do in track. I love track and ran for quite a while, but that's a race unrivaled by anything on the track.


What I am saying is due to timing competingin in the 100m and 400m on the track in the same olympics is impossible. As is competing in the 200m and 110m Hurdles in the same olympics.

And I was not saying there is less exertion (Swimming 200 is closer to the 800m event than any of the sprints) but more so the physical toll on the joints, there is far more impact on the body on the track than in the pool which over an extended period of training makes it close to impossible to group more than two track events together (Sprint/Jump events, longer distance is different)

I don't want to compare the two sports, what I was saying is that you can compete in 4-8 events at the Olympics and have little crossover of events.

That is impossible to do on the track.


What was the timing? Because I know Lochte and Missy both swam races within half an hour of each other, and I'm sure Phelps has at some point in his olympic career as well.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mse326 wrote:
khodder wrote:
fly eagles fly wrote:
khodder wrote:
Bolt could do the 1/2/4 triple if he wanted, of that I have no doubt. But the timing of the events makes it very difficult/impossible to do that anymore. (Bolt has a PB of 45.28 set in 2007). Bolt also holds the WB in the 150m, but that is not a recognised event, nor an olympic event.

There are runners out there capable of doing the 800/1500m double, but the fact is that the 800m semis are less than an hour before the 1500m final so they cannot even attempt it.

Swimming has much better space between events that allow people to compete in numerous events and that combined with the low impact nature of the sport makes it that much easier to compete in more than just the usual combos.

Just to be clear here; If Bolt wanted to run the 400, it would be nearly impossible for him to compete in the 100. If Bolt wanted to compete in the 110 hurdles it would make it nearly impossible for him to compete in the 200.


I can absolutely guarantee you that running a 400 is far less draining than swimming a 200. Swimming takes so much more out of you than running a race like that does. I've grown up with a pool and swam quite a bit, and ran 8 years of track. Yes, you're exhausted right after running a 200 all-out but within 20 minutes I was fully ready to go for whatever. If he really wanted to, he could do that double. As we saw, he didn't go all out in the 100 until the final, and probably would be able to do the same in the 400, with the finals being a full day apart.

The amount of races that Phelps swims is still far greater than the amount of races that Bolt would run even if he did do the 1,2,4 triple. And if you consider the 400IM, that is SOOOOO much harder than anything you can do in track. I love track and ran for quite a while, but that's a race unrivaled by anything on the track.


What I am saying is due to timing competingin in the 100m and 400m on the track in the same olympics is impossible. As is competing in the 200m and 110m Hurdles in the same olympics.

And I was not saying there is less exertion (Swimming 200 is closer to the 800m event than any of the sprints) but more so the physical toll on the joints, there is far more impact on the body on the track than in the pool which over an extended period of training makes it close to impossible to group more than two track events together (Sprint/Jump events, longer distance is different)

I don't want to compare the two sports, what I was saying is that you can compete in 4-8 events at the Olympics and have little crossover of events.

That is impossible to do on the track.


What was the timing? Because I know Lochte and Missy both swam races within half an hour of each other, and I'm sure Phelps has at some point in his olympic career as well.


The 400/100 would go - 100m Semi, 20 odd minutes, 400m semi, 20 odd minutes, 100m final.

The 110m Hurdles and the 200 would go - Semi of the 110 hurdles, once those are over, 200m semifinals, once that is over 110m hurdles final.

And these are events in which there is far more bodily impact. Than swimming.

If there were such a freak of nature that could win all four of those events, it is unlikely they would be able to race in all four becasue of the scheduling.
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