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| Marino vs Manning |
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mse326
Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 13590
Location: LORK on the sig
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 Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| x0x wrote: | | mse326 wrote: |
77.6
66.9
54.9
72.1
56.5
109.8
63.4
29.3
65.5
34.6
Those are Marino's passer ratings in losses. He played poorly. |
Considering the context and league averages, only four of those could be classified as poor. The rest would be mediocre to the one great. |
So he was poor 40% of the time and great 10%. That is by your numbers. Still calling games in the 60's mediocre? Even in that time that was bad.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | And his "lack of team" is getting a bit overdone. The defense was poor and there wasn't much of a run game. But Clayton and Duper were one of the better receiver tandems in the league and the o-line was great. |
That's pretty freaking lacking. People here know of my opinion on the Marks brothers, made by Marino. They were also in their prime in the 80s when Marino had longer playoff runs. |
Maybe in terms of W/L. Not in terms of not being able to perform himself. He had weapons to throw to. You can not like Duper and Clayton all you want, they were one of the better tandems. He wasn't going to get much better.
| Quote: | | The offensive line was largely mediocre for most of Marino's career, that one Hall of Fame Center notwithstanding (the only HF Marino played with). |
It was not largely medicore. Run blocking a bit questionable. Pass blocking they were great.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | From 1984-1995 they were a top 10 offense in all but 3 years and top 5 for around half. That wasn't just Marino. And even if it was it doesn't explain why he couldn't do it in the playoffs. |
I started watching in 1990, it was all Marino. Team is garbage without him. Pure garbage. Doesn't explain how he didn't win in the playoffs?? Oh let me see, he carries his team to win enough games against equal or slightly better opposition. He then faces the best of the best in the playoffs and cannot carry his team like Jesus against overwhelming odds. It's called circumstance genius. |
TOP 10 offense for all but 3 of those years. TOP 5 for half. No QB can do that on his own. And if he could then, he could in the playoffs. I'm not talking W/L, I'm talking performance. His performance dipped. And you are right it is circumstance. The circumstance of him not being able to deal with the pressure of the playoffs.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Plain and simple Dan Marino sucked in the postseason and was just as responsible as any other player for their losses. |
Not really. |
So you quote a W/L thing to disprove what I said? You know what that doesn't show. The reverse. Did the offense in total even give the defense enough support to win? Did the defense and passing game give the rushing game a chance to win? It only analyzed in one direction.
And even this article disproves your initial point-Marino only lost because he had no team while Manning has no excuse. Yet that article says they both performed over expectations to about the same degree.
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ChazStandard
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 2165
Location: The bandwagon, hop on up!
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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62.5
82.0
31.2
35.5
69.3
90.9
97.7
90.4
88.5
108.7
Just for the sake of fairness, these are Manning's numbers in post-season losses. 5 are god awful. 2 are excellent, three are mediocre to average (by career standards). I don't see them being a much better than Marinos, and he had a fair more talent around him and plays in an easier passing era (note the rise after the 2004 changes).
Also, in Peyton's superbowl run he never once exceeded and 82 rating - but they still won. Never could have happened with Marino.
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x0x
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 13981
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| mse326 wrote: | | His performance dipped. And you are right it is circumstance. The circumstance of him not being able to deal with the pressure of the playoffs. |
| Quote: | | So you quote a W/L thing to disprove what I said? You know what that doesn't show. The reverse. Did the offense in total even give the defense enough support to win? Did the defense and passing game give the rushing game a chance to win? It only analyzed in one direction. |
What happened, especially in the Bills losses, is Marino's defense opened up a huge hole and made the Dolphins offense one-dimensional, moreso than typical of that team.
The opposing defense then goes into full pass protection and Marino is walled in. I've yet to see any QB face such overwhelming odds. What he did against the Bills in one game in the cold and the Chargers is nothing short of legendary. Not even Manning pulled such performances out of his butt.
| Quote: | | And even this article disproves your initial point-Marino only lost because he had no team while Manning has no excuse. Yet that article says they both performed over expectations to about the same degree. |
Manning had a few more neutral losses and a lot less impossible matchups.
| Quote: | | Still calling games in the 60's mediocre? Even in that time that was bad. |
That 400 yard game in Buffalo?
Three of those sub 70 Ratings in a loss also occurred in his last three playoff runs. Don't even bother trying to counter that. Jimmy forced the run and got those Dolphins teams into insurmountable holes against some great teams like the Jags and Broncos. No chance for Dan.
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GaTechRavens
Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 15685
Location: Knoxville, TN
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| x0x wrote: | | What happened, especially in the Bills losses, is Marino's defense opened up a huge hole and made the Dolphins offense one-dimensional, moreso than typical of that team. |
The offense was just as responsible for those holes as the defense. In their three losses to Buffalo, the Dolphins combined to score 20 first half points. Almost all of those came from a single game.
And really, I hear this argument go both ways all the time. People talk about back door scoring all the time, when scoring becomes easier because the team faces a big deficit and the opposing defense plays looser. Which one is it?
| Quote: | | The opposing defense then goes into full pass protection and Marino is walled in. I've yet to see any QB face such overwhelming odds. What he did against the Bills in one game in the cold and the Chargers is nothing short of legendary. Not even Manning pulled such performances out of his butt. |
Any performance with a QB rating of 72 or worse is not even close to "legendary" regardless of context.
And Manning did pull such performances out of his butt. Difference is, he did it in both halves and actually won the game even when his defense played horribly. And the one time he didn't do it in both halves (2006 Patriots), his performance still marked exactly what you're talking about.
| Quote: | | That 400 yard game in Buffalo? |
The one that consisted entirely of back door scoring? Miami trailed 27-0 in the 4th quarter of that game. Anything remotely impressive from Marino happened in garbage time.
| Quote: | | Three of those sub 70 Ratings in a loss also occurred in his last three playoff runs. Don't even bother trying to counter that. Jimmy forced the run and got those Dolphins teams into insurmountable holes against some great teams like the Jags and Broncos. No chance for Dan. |
So he's only 1 for 7 instead of 1 for 10. Gotcha.
And once again, Marino contributed just as much to those holes as anyone else on that team. Having bad teammates does not exclude Marino from playing poorly in his own right. Not sure why that's so difficult to understand.
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jgold72288
Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 506
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| ChazStandard wrote: | 62.5
82.0
31.2
35.5
69.3
90.9
97.7
90.4
88.5
108.7
Just for the sake of fairness, these are Manning's numbers in post-season losses. 5 are god awful. 2 are excellent, three are mediocre to average (by career standards). I don't see them being a much better than Marinos, and he had a fair more talent around him and plays in an easier passing era (note the rise after the 2004 changes).
Also, in Peyton's superbowl run he never once exceeded and 82 rating - but they still won. Never could have happened with Marino. |
Five of those performances are god-awful? Since when is a rating in the 80s "god-awful"? That's the definition of mediocre. I'd say anything in the high 80s or above, considering it was the postseason and being played against the best defenses, would be considered "good". Nobody is about to defend most of his losses pre-05 (though he played well enough to win and led the team to a game-winning field goal that was shanked against the Dolphins in 00), but since then he's been a completely different player in the postseason. And I know that weapons have to be taken into consideration, but he actually matched (or much more often surpassed) the performance of the opposing QB in 15 of his 19 postseason games. So if we're to believe the ludicrous notion that a QB is entirely responsible for his team's wins and losses (not saying you're advocating this, but a lot of people in the media do, as well as some idiots here), then Peyton's postseason record would be 12-4-3 (he was about even with McNair in 99, Berger in 05, and Brady in 06).
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x0x
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 13981
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| GaTechRavens wrote: | | The offense was just as responsible for those holes as the defense. In their three losses to Buffalo, the Dolphins combined to score 20 first half points. Almost all of those came from a single game. |
Right, because Buffalo got an early lead and didn't let up on pass rush in the first half.
| Quote: | | Any performance with a QB rating of 72 or worse is not even close to "legendary" regardless of context. |
Untrue.
| Quote: | | And Manning did pull such performances out of his butt. Difference is, he did it in both halves and actually won the game even when his defense played horribly. And the one time he didn't do it in both halves (2006 Patriots), his performance still marked exactly what you're talking about. |
Refer back to the article. How many great playoff comebacks did Peyton have? Remind me please.
| Quote: |
The one that consisted entirely of back door scoring? Miami trailed 27-0 in the 4th quarter of that game. Anything remotely impressive from Marino happened in garbage time. |
Marino did all he could in that game believe me.
I believe he only got 15 yards of rushing support before the 4th quarter as well.
| Quote: |
So he's only 1 for 7 instead of 1 for 10. Gotcha. |
Refer back to article. 8 impossible matchups for Marino, most of any QB by a good margin and he nearly won one of those.
| Quote: | | And once again, Marino contributed just as much to those holes as anyone else on that team. Having bad teammates does not exclude Marino from playing poorly in his own right. Not sure why that's so difficult to understand. |
Not sure why it's so difficult for you to understand how much of a handicap a crap defence and no run game is especially against a good team.
And Marino didn't have good receiver weapons most of his career, and I'm speaking about the 90s.
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RainbowCarebear
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 22764
Location: Avenging his brother by slaying three of Prince Rhaegar's bannermen and later Rodrik Greyjoy
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Manning
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jrry32
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 32766
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| ChazStandard wrote: | 62.5
82.0
31.2
35.5
69.3
90.9
97.7
90.4
88.5
108.7
Just for the sake of fairness, these are Manning's numbers in post-season losses. 5 are god awful. 2 are excellent, three are mediocre to average (by career standards). I don't see them being a much better than Marinos, and he had a fair more talent around him and plays in an easier passing era (note the rise after the 2004 changes).
Also, in Peyton's superbowl run he never once exceeded and 82 rating - but they still won. Never could have happened with Marino. |
5 are god awful? Are we really calling a QB of 82 god awful?
I see 2 atrocious games, 2 bad games, 1 mediocre game, 1 above average game, 2 good games, 1 very good game and 1 great game.
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mozwanted
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 16724
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| close call. But manning is the GOAT in my opinion |
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PowerElite
Joined: 25 Dec 2009
Posts: 7674
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| DirtyDez wrote: | | If Marino played half his games in perfect elements & was surrounded by elite weapons he'd probably equal or surpass Manning's accomplishments... But, there's no way to prove so i'll take Manning. |
Interesting, "Manning the dome quarterback..." |
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DirtyDez
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
Posts: 9827
Location: the Arizona desert
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| PowerElite wrote: | | DirtyDez wrote: | | If Marino played half his games in perfect elements & was surrounded by elite weapons he'd probably equal or surpass Manning's accomplishments... But, there's no way to prove so i'll take Manning. |
Interesting, "Manning the dome quarterback..." |
Only 60% of his games were in perfect conditions, not all.
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GaTechRavens
Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 15685
Location: Knoxville, TN
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| DirtyDez wrote: | | PowerElite wrote: | | DirtyDez wrote: | | If Marino played half his games in perfect elements & was surrounded by elite weapons he'd probably equal or surpass Manning's accomplishments... But, there's no way to prove so i'll take Manning. |
Interesting, "Manning the dome quarterback..." |
Only 60% of his games were in perfect conditions, not all. |
It's not like playing every game in Miami is all that different.
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| ArrowheadRage58 wrote: | | I'd much rather be in our position now than the Ravens, that's for sure. |
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x0x
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 13981
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| GaTechRavens wrote: | | DirtyDez wrote: | | PowerElite wrote: | | DirtyDez wrote: | | If Marino played half his games in perfect elements & was surrounded by elite weapons he'd probably equal or surpass Manning's accomplishments... But, there's no way to prove so i'll take Manning. |
Interesting, "Manning the dome quarterback..." |
Only 60% of his games were in perfect conditions, not all. |
It's not like playing every game in Miami is all that different. |
Also consider:
Houston (dome)
Jacksonville
Nashville
His divisional opponents most of his career which meant him playing nice weather in December.
Marino's divisional opponents:
Boston
Buffalo
New York
Indianapolis (which was dome)
Definitely looking forward to how Peyton plays in Denver. And even then, Denver doesn't have that bad of weather.
Favre, Rodgers, Brady, Kelly and Bledsoe being so productive where they played is a huge bonus.
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jgold72288
Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 506
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| x0x wrote: | | GaTechRavens wrote: | | DirtyDez wrote: | | PowerElite wrote: | | DirtyDez wrote: | | If Marino played half his games in perfect elements & was surrounded by elite weapons he'd probably equal or surpass Manning's accomplishments... But, there's no way to prove so i'll take Manning. |
Interesting, "Manning the dome quarterback..." |
Only 60% of his games were in perfect conditions, not all. |
It's not like playing every game in Miami is all that different. |
Also consider:
Houston (dome)
Jacksonville
Nashville
His divisional opponents most of his career which meant him playing nice weather in December.
Marino's divisional opponents:
Boston
Buffalo
New York
Indianapolis (which was dome)
Definitely looking forward to how Peyton plays in Denver. And even then, Denver doesn't have that bad of weather.
Favre, Rodgers, Brady, Kelly and Bledsoe being so productive where they played is a huge bonus. |
Not saying that Peyton hasn't had the weather advantage because he clearly has, but out of Boston, NY, and Buffalo, some of those games are going to be played in good to decent conditions in September and October. It's not like an automatic three blizzard games are added to his schedule.
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GaTechRavens
Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 15685
Location: Knoxville, TN
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| jgold72288 wrote: | | x0x wrote: | | GaTechRavens wrote: | | DirtyDez wrote: | | PowerElite wrote: | | DirtyDez wrote: | | If Marino played half his games in perfect elements & was surrounded by elite weapons he'd probably equal or surpass Manning's accomplishments... But, there's no way to prove so i'll take Manning. |
Interesting, "Manning the dome quarterback..." |
Only 60% of his games were in perfect conditions, not all. |
It's not like playing every game in Miami is all that different. |
Also consider:
Houston (dome)
Jacksonville
Nashville
His divisional opponents most of his career which meant him playing nice weather in December.
Marino's divisional opponents:
Boston
Buffalo
New York
Indianapolis (which was dome)
Definitely looking forward to how Peyton plays in Denver. And even then, Denver doesn't have that bad of weather.
Favre, Rodgers, Brady, Kelly and Bledsoe being so productive where they played is a huge bonus. |
Not saying that Peyton hasn't had the weather advantage because he clearly has, but out of Boston, NY, and Buffalo, some of those games are going to be played in good to decent conditions in September and October. It's not like an automatic three blizzard games are added to his schedule. |
Fun fact: Marino combined the play the Bills, Patriots and Jets only 5 times on the road in December. In his entire 17-year career. And he never had to do it once until 1990.
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| ArrowheadRage58 wrote: | | I'd much rather be in our position now than the Ravens, that's for sure. |
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