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incognito_man


Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 30891
Location: Madison
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

game3525 wrote:


No, he didn't.

Rivers threw for more yards and touchdowns, had a higher YPA and completion percentage.

His QBR was also 7 points higher.

Cam had a great rookie year, but even in a down year Rivers was still a top 8-10 QB, and you can argue he was among the top 5 in the second half of the season.


Every time each QB touched the ball this is how likely things were to happen:

Score a TD
Cam Newton - 5.2%
Philip Rivers - 4.4%

Turn the Ball Over
Cam Newton - 3.2%
Philip Rivers - 4.5%

Gain ____ Yards
Cam Newton - 6.63
Philip Rivers - 6.99

Cam Newton also had a higher YPC than Rivers (by 0.5 yards)
Rivers had a higher YPA (by 0.1 yards)

They had very similar seasons by a lot of metrics, but the bottom line is that every time Cam touched the ball he was more likely to score and less likely to turn it over while Rivers was expected to gain 0.3 yards more.

I prefer QBs who score and limit turnovers therefore Newton clearly had a superior year.
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GSUeagles14


Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 5909
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

incognito_man wrote:
game3525 wrote:


No, he didn't.

Rivers threw for more yards and touchdowns, had a higher YPA and completion percentage.

His QBR was also 7 points higher.

Cam had a great rookie year, but even in a down year Rivers was still a top 8-10 QB, and you can argue he was among the top 5 in the second half of the season.


Every time each QB touched the ball this is how likely things were to happen:

Score a TD
Cam Newton - 5.2%
Philip Rivers - 4.4%

Turn the Ball Over
Cam Newton - 3.2%
Philip Rivers - 4.5%

Gain ____ Yards
Cam Newton - 6.63
Philip Rivers - 6.99

Cam Newton also had a higher YPC than Rivers (by 0.5 yards)
Rivers had a higher YPA (by 0.1 yards)

They had very similar seasons by a lot of metrics, but the bottom line is that every time Cam touched the ball he was more likely to score and less likely to turn it over while Rivers was expected to gain 0.3 yards more.

I prefer QBs who score and limit turnovers therefore Newton clearly had a superior year.


Rivers was the better qb, cam's a better runner, happy?

Or do you want to start including return yardage when judging Hester as a wr?
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bmorecareful


Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 559
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GSUeagles14 wrote:
incognito_man wrote:
game3525 wrote:


No, he didn't.

Rivers threw for more yards and touchdowns, had a higher YPA and completion percentage.

His QBR was also 7 points higher.

Cam had a great rookie year, but even in a down year Rivers was still a top 8-10 QB, and you can argue he was among the top 5 in the second half of the season.


Every time each QB touched the ball this is how likely things were to happen:

Score a TD
Cam Newton - 5.2%
Philip Rivers - 4.4%

Turn the Ball Over
Cam Newton - 3.2%
Philip Rivers - 4.5%

Gain ____ Yards
Cam Newton - 6.63
Philip Rivers - 6.99

Cam Newton also had a higher YPC than Rivers (by 0.5 yards)
Rivers had a higher YPA (by 0.1 yards)

They had very similar seasons by a lot of metrics, but the bottom line is that every time Cam touched the ball he was more likely to score and less likely to turn it over while Rivers was expected to gain 0.3 yards more.

I prefer QBs who score and limit turnovers therefore Newton clearly had a superior year.


Rivers was the better qb, cam's a better runner, happy?

Or do you want to start including return yardage when judging Hester as a wr?


How is that the same. You discredit a skill based upon one players inability to do it. Such a weak excuse. I'm confused as to what makes Rivers a better QB, it's not like Carolina brings in a different QB and lines Cam up in the I-formation when he runs the ball lol. He has different strengths than Rivers but a TD is a TD. You can try to discredit it but running is a part of being a Quarterback it's just Cam does it so well it's schemed into his offense. It's like discrediting a running back for his catching ability when comparing backs because one guy isn't as good as the other guy at it. Any way u look at it it's part of the position
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game3525


Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Posts: 4917
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bmorecareful wrote:
GSUeagles14 wrote:
incognito_man wrote:
game3525 wrote:


No, he didn't.

Rivers threw for more yards and touchdowns, had a higher YPA and completion percentage.

His QBR was also 7 points higher.

Cam had a great rookie year, but even in a down year Rivers was still a top 8-10 QB, and you can argue he was among the top 5 in the second half of the season.


Every time each QB touched the ball this is how likely things were to happen:

Score a TD
Cam Newton - 5.2%
Philip Rivers - 4.4%

Turn the Ball Over
Cam Newton - 3.2%
Philip Rivers - 4.5%

Gain ____ Yards
Cam Newton - 6.63
Philip Rivers - 6.99

Cam Newton also had a higher YPC than Rivers (by 0.5 yards)
Rivers had a higher YPA (by 0.1 yards)

They had very similar seasons by a lot of metrics, but the bottom line is that every time Cam touched the ball he was more likely to score and less likely to turn it over while Rivers was expected to gain 0.3 yards more.

I prefer QBs who score and limit turnovers therefore Newton clearly had a superior year.


Rivers was the better qb, cam's a better runner, happy?

Or do you want to start including return yardage when judging Hester as a wr?


How is that the same. You discredit a skill based upon one players inability to do it. Such a weak excuse. I'm confused as to what makes Rivers a better QB, it's not like Carolina brings in a different QB and lines Cam up in the I-formation when he runs the ball lol. He has different strengths than Rivers but a TD is a TD. You can try to discredit it but running is a part of being a Quarterback it's just Cam does it so well it's schemed into his offense. It's like discrediting a running back for his catching ability when comparing backs because one guy isn't as good as the other guy at it. Any way u look at it it's part of the position


It is not even comparable to a RB who can catch.

The QB's primary job is to make throws consistently from pocket and Rivers simply does that better then Cam at this point.
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GSUeagles14


Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 5909
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bmorecareful wrote:
GSUeagles14 wrote:
incognito_man wrote:
game3525 wrote:


No, he didn't.

Rivers threw for more yards and touchdowns, had a higher YPA and completion percentage.

His QBR was also 7 points higher.

Cam had a great rookie year, but even in a down year Rivers was still a top 8-10 QB, and you can argue he was among the top 5 in the second half of the season.


Every time each QB touched the ball this is how likely things were to happen:

Score a TD
Cam Newton - 5.2%
Philip Rivers - 4.4%

Turn the Ball Over
Cam Newton - 3.2%
Philip Rivers - 4.5%

Gain ____ Yards
Cam Newton - 6.63
Philip Rivers - 6.99

Cam Newton also had a higher YPC than Rivers (by 0.5 yards)
Rivers had a higher YPA (by 0.1 yards)

They had very similar seasons by a lot of metrics, but the bottom line is that every time Cam touched the ball he was more likely to score and less likely to turn it over while Rivers was expected to gain 0.3 yards more.

I prefer QBs who score and limit turnovers therefore Newton clearly had a superior year.


Rivers was the better qb, cam's a better runner, happy?

Or do you want to start including return yardage when judging Hester as a wr?


How is that the same. You discredit a skill based upon one players inability to do it. Such a weak excuse. I'm confused as to what makes Rivers a better QB, it's not like Carolina brings in a different QB and lines Cam up in the I-formation when he runs the ball lol. He has different strengths than Rivers but a TD is a TD. You can try to discredit it but running is a part of being a Quarterback it's just Cam does it so well it's schemed into his offense. It's like discrediting a running back for his catching ability when comparing backs because one guy isn't as good as the other guy at it. Any way u look at it it's part of the position


Where did you rank Reggie bush when he was with NO?bwas he a top 5 back?

The primary function of a qb is to throw the ball, rivers is better at it. When we are talking about quarterbacks, that matters.
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iknowcool


Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Posts: 13218
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, this is good stuff.

Lets not count what Cam can accomplish on the ground because Rivers is incapable of doing it.
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iknowcool


Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Posts: 13218
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GSUeagles14 wrote:
Where did you rank Reggie bush when he was with NO?bwas he a top 5 back?


Of course not because outside of 2006, he never approached 1,000 yards from scrimmage in a single season. AD, MJD, Foster, McCoy, Rice, etc. can run for 1,000 yards alone not even counting what they did receiving wise.

But since you want to apply that logic, should we not include Marshall's receiving ability into how good he was as a halfback? Did Young's feet not play a role in why many people consider him one of the greatest quarterbacks to ever play, and certainly one of the hardest to gameplan for? If a cornerbacks primary job is to cover receivers, why do people consider Woodson a superior corner than Sanders mostly because Woodson played the run better?

Here is the issue people are having. People are still living under the old mindset that a quarterback should not be running with the football. Times have changed. Newton's ability to run the football impacts how a defensive coordinator calls the game. He is less likely to run man-to-man coverage on 3rd and short against Cam compared to if he was facing, say, Brady. If it affects how the opponent gameplans for you, then I need it explained to me how it shouldn't be considered when evaluating who is the better quarterback.

By the way, do people seriously think that the only thing that goes into deciding who is the better QB is who throws the ball better? Because there are many things, including stuff that happen to deal with mobility, that decides which QB will succeed and which QB won't succeed. Pocket presence (Brees is a mobile QB in the ilk that Marino was a mobile QB; both terrific at working the pocket and avoiding sacks, sort of like Peyton as well), how you read defenses, footwork, etc. Basically anything that a QB can do that can affect how a DC plays you, it matters. Unless you are to imply that Newton's ability to run the football and force defenses to put in a spy or get out of man defense doesn't affect the game, then it should absolutely be considered when deciding who had the better year.

I still rank Rivers as a top 7 quarterback. Newton somewhere in the top 15. So who is better right now for me is clearly Rivers. But who was better last year? I don't see how you don't say Cam. Scored more touchdowns at a more efficient rate, turned the ball over less, only .1 less of a Y/A, there isn't much of difference between a 62% and 60% CMP PCT, and produced more yards. Whether he did his work through the air or on the ground is irrelevant; it forced DCs to change their gameplan and it put up points on the board, the responsibility of a quarterback.

But I guess if calling Newton a better quarterback isn't politically correct, would you be alright with me calling him the better player of the two from '11? Because it really doesn't matter to me if Newton is the better QB or player.
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incognito_man


Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 30891
Location: Madison
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GSUeagles14 wrote:


Rivers was the better qb, cam's a better runner, happy?

Or do you want to start including return yardage when judging Hester as a wr?


1] No, that's pretty silly. Rivers might be a better passer right now (not even sure this is true unless he returns to his old form which then he would be). But Cam is the better runner and the better QB.

2] Hester doesn't line up as a WR when he's returning kicks. All QBs still line up as a QB when they run. There's no such thing as a 'WR' on special teams. However, his return ability certainly adds to his value as a football player, absolutely.
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GiantsStadium


Joined: 14 Aug 2012
Posts: 118
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GSUeagles14 wrote:
bmorecareful wrote:
GSUeagles14 wrote:
incognito_man wrote:
game3525 wrote:


No, he didn't.

Rivers threw for more yards and touchdowns, had a higher YPA and completion percentage.

His QBR was also 7 points higher.

Cam had a great rookie year, but even in a down year Rivers was still a top 8-10 QB, and you can argue he was among the top 5 in the second half of the season.


Every time each QB touched the ball this is how likely things were to happen:

Score a TD
Cam Newton - 5.2%
Philip Rivers - 4.4%

Turn the Ball Over
Cam Newton - 3.2%
Philip Rivers - 4.5%

Gain ____ Yards
Cam Newton - 6.63
Philip Rivers - 6.99

Cam Newton also had a higher YPC than Rivers (by 0.5 yards)
Rivers had a higher YPA (by 0.1 yards)

They had very similar seasons by a lot of metrics, but the bottom line is that every time Cam touched the ball he was more likely to score and less likely to turn it over while Rivers was expected to gain 0.3 yards more.

I prefer QBs who score and limit turnovers therefore Newton clearly had a superior year.


Rivers was the better qb, cam's a better runner, happy?

Or do you want to start including return yardage when judging Hester as a wr?


How is that the same. You discredit a skill based upon one players inability to do it. Such a weak excuse. I'm confused as to what makes Rivers a better QB, it's not like Carolina brings in a different QB and lines Cam up in the I-formation when he runs the ball lol. He has different strengths than Rivers but a TD is a TD. You can try to discredit it but running is a part of being a Quarterback it's just Cam does it so well it's schemed into his offense. It's like discrediting a running back for his catching ability when comparing backs because one guy isn't as good as the other guy at it. Any way u look at it it's part of the position


Where did you rank Reggie bush when he was with NO?bwas he a top 5 back?

The primary function of a qb is to throw the ball, rivers is better at it. When we are talking about quarterbacks, that matters.

The Primary function of a QB is to lead his team down the field and score points.
A QB's rushing yards count on the field just the same as his passing yards.
A rushing TD counts for the same 6 that a passing TD does.

There is nothing that prevents Rivers from running other than the fact that he's not very good at it. When comparing players you can't disregard a skillset of one player just because the other player isn't as good at it.

Do I think Cam is better than Rivers? I think it's too early to put Cam above him after one year. But when making the comparison, Cam's rushing absolutely counts.
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Jakuvious


Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Posts: 8850
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bmorecareful wrote:

How is that the same. You discredit a skill based upon one players inability to do it. Such a weak excuse. I'm confused as to what makes Rivers a better QB, it's not like Carolina brings in a different QB and lines Cam up in the I-formation when he runs the ball lol. He has different strengths than Rivers but a TD is a TD. You can try to discredit it but running is a part of being a Quarterback it's just Cam does it so well it's schemed into his offense. It's like discrediting a running back for his catching ability when comparing backs because one guy isn't as good as the other guy at it. Any way u look at it it's part of the position


Okay, look at it this way. Can you be a great QB if you can't throw the ball well? Can you be a great QB if you can't run the ball well.

That should tell you which one is more important to judging the better QB.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:
bmorecareful wrote:

How is that the same. You discredit a skill based upon one players inability to do it. Such a weak excuse. I'm confused as to what makes Rivers a better QB, it's not like Carolina brings in a different QB and lines Cam up in the I-formation when he runs the ball lol. He has different strengths than Rivers but a TD is a TD. You can try to discredit it but running is a part of being a Quarterback it's just Cam does it so well it's schemed into his offense. It's like discrediting a running back for his catching ability when comparing backs because one guy isn't as good as the other guy at it. Any way u look at it it's part of the position


Okay, look at it this way. Can you be a great QB if you can't throw the ball well? Can you be a great QB if you can't run the ball well.

That should tell you which one is more important to judging the better QB.


No one is arguing what is a more valuable skill set for a QB. Its simply not fair to ignore all of Newton's production as a runner because its not as important of a skill set, as you stated. Its part of the package that is Cam Newton. Newton isnt a poor passer, so I am not sure what your point is exactly as it relates to Newton's skill set.
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mse326


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:
bmorecareful wrote:

How is that the same. You discredit a skill based upon one players inability to do it. Such a weak excuse. I'm confused as to what makes Rivers a better QB, it's not like Carolina brings in a different QB and lines Cam up in the I-formation when he runs the ball lol. He has different strengths than Rivers but a TD is a TD. You can try to discredit it but running is a part of being a Quarterback it's just Cam does it so well it's schemed into his offense. It's like discrediting a running back for his catching ability when comparing backs because one guy isn't as good as the other guy at it. Any way u look at it it's part of the position


Okay, look at it this way. Can you be a great QB if you can't throw the ball well? Can you be a great QB if you can't run the ball well.

That should tell you which one is more important to judging the better QB.


Just because 1 is more important doesn't mean the other is irrelevant.
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RandyMossIsBoss


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hold on, are you guys saying that right now Cam Newton is the better quarterback than Philip Rivers?
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RandyMossIsBoss wrote:
Hold on, are you guys saying that right now Cam Newton is the better quarterback than Philip Rivers?


Nope, that isnt what is being said. What is being said is that Newton was the better Qb in 2011.
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Jakuvious


Joined: 06 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mse326 wrote:
Jakuvious wrote:
bmorecareful wrote:

How is that the same. You discredit a skill based upon one players inability to do it. Such a weak excuse. I'm confused as to what makes Rivers a better QB, it's not like Carolina brings in a different QB and lines Cam up in the I-formation when he runs the ball lol. He has different strengths than Rivers but a TD is a TD. You can try to discredit it but running is a part of being a Quarterback it's just Cam does it so well it's schemed into his offense. It's like discrediting a running back for his catching ability when comparing backs because one guy isn't as good as the other guy at it. Any way u look at it it's part of the position


Okay, look at it this way. Can you be a great QB if you can't throw the ball well? Can you be a great QB if you can't run the ball well.

That should tell you which one is more important to judging the better QB.


Just because 1 is more important doesn't mean the other is irrelevant.


Didn't say it is, I'm just saying you can't equate the two. A TD is a TD as far as the score goes, but when rating players it isn't quite the same. But we have posts in this thread lumping rushing stats and passing stats together and listing per touch stats for QBs, and that's pretty ridiculous. They have to be compared as separate traits and weighed accordingly, both relevant, but to very different degrees.
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