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incognito_man


Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:

Didn't say it is, I'm just saying you can't equate the two. A TD is a TD as far as the score goes, but when rating players it isn't quite the same. But we have posts in this thread lumping rushing stats and passing stats together and listing per touch stats for QBs, and that's pretty ridiculous. They have to be compared as separate traits and weighed accordingly, both relevant, but to very different degrees.


Why is it ridiculous?

If a QB is a sufficiently good passer his passing efficiency numbers will still trump combined stats of inferior QBs.

It's absolutely relevant to examine how a QB does every time he touches the ball.
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Jakuvious


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

incognito_man wrote:
Jakuvious wrote:

Didn't say it is, I'm just saying you can't equate the two. A TD is a TD as far as the score goes, but when rating players it isn't quite the same. But we have posts in this thread lumping rushing stats and passing stats together and listing per touch stats for QBs, and that's pretty ridiculous. They have to be compared as separate traits and weighed accordingly, both relevant, but to very different degrees.


Why is it ridiculous?

If a QB is a sufficiently good passer his passing efficiency numbers will still trump combined stats of inferior QBs.

It's absolutely relevant to examine how a QB does every time he touches the ball.


First of all, because you can't rely purely on statistics. So trying to frame an argument based on some....unique ones is flawed on a number of fronts.

Second, it throws things off significantly as far as proportions go. Cam Newton had a 4.06% TD rate when passing. He had an 11.11% TD rate when rushing. You can't just mash those together. When there is that big of a disparity, that really should be pretty obvious. The guy throws about 5 times as often as he runs. You manage to misrepresent both his rushing production and his passing production when you lump the two things together.
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incognito_man


Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:


First of all, because you can't rely purely on statistics. So trying to frame an argument based on some....unique ones is flawed on a number of fronts.

Second, it throws things off significantly as far as proportions go. Cam Newton had a 4.06% TD rate when passing. He had an 11.11% TD rate when rushing. You can't just mash those together. When there is that big of a disparity, that really should be pretty obvious. The guy throws about 5 times as often as he runs. You manage to misrepresent both his rushing production and his passing production when you lump the two things together.


...and combine them into a picture which illustrates exactly what he is as a QB and not just a passer...

Yeah, that's the point.
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reckless123


Joined: 02 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listen to this statement:

"Cam had more TDs for a season than Rivers has ever had if you include rushing"

Now tell me what is right about that?

Its not right to mesh the 2 as if a QB needs to be a good runner to be successful.

Whenever we have had comparisons between QBs i.e Peyton vs Brady, do we ever bring up rushing stats? And do we ever combine the passing stats and rushing stats?
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mse326


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

reckless123 wrote:
Listen to this statement:

"Cam had more TDs for a season than Rivers has ever had if you include rushing"

Now tell me what is right about that?

Its not right to mesh the 2 as if a QB needs to be a good runner to be successful.

Whenever we have had comparisons between QBs i.e Peyton vs Brady, do we ever bring up rushing stats? And do we ever combine the passing stats and rushing stats?


Those 2 no because neither is a rusher.

But I urge you to go back to some of the Rogers v. Rivers debates and watch KingofStats go off the rails because people wanted to include Rogers rushing in the equation.

I'd agree that it isn't right to just add like they are equal parts of the equation. But some of the comments seem to suggest that the ability to run is irrelevant when determining who is a better QB. That I diagree with. It's like saying receiving ability for a RB isn't important when discussing who the better RB is. If you are comparing them by saying who is the best "passer" that is one thing, but as a QB being able to run isn't such an unusual trait it needs to be factored to some degree.
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bmorecareful


Joined: 09 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

reckless123 wrote:
Listen to this statement:

"Cam had more TDs for a season than Rivers has ever had if you include rushing"

Now tell me what is right about that?

Its not right to mesh the 2 as if a QB needs to be a good runner to be successful.

Whenever we have had comparisons between QBs i.e Peyton vs Brady, do we ever bring up rushing stats? And do we ever combine the passing stats and rushing stats?


I'm just so tired of this "pure passer" bs it's not even funny. First of all decision making is the most important part of quarterbacking PERIOD. To evaluate Cam as a quarterback and discount his athleticism is doing a disservice to the guys talent. He was the number one pick because of his combined skill set from the QB position. To bring up Brady and Manning's running ability is irrelevant when comparing those two not because it's not needed by quarterbacks in general but because it doesn't help either ones case. As a Ravens fan our defense (Rightfully so I might add) is always brought up when evaluating Joe Flacco. People use whatever they can to discredit a guy but production is production people say u can't combine stats like it was produced by two different players. Cam was still the QB when he was running therefore that goes with his production at the position I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. We re talking about playing quarterback and evaluating them based upon what they can do on the field from that position. QB doesn't stand for throw the ball only lol get over it
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reckless123


Joined: 02 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mse326 wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Listen to this statement:

"Cam had more TDs for a season than Rivers has ever had if you include rushing"

Now tell me what is right about that?

Its not right to mesh the 2 as if a QB needs to be a good runner to be successful.

Whenever we have had comparisons between QBs i.e Peyton vs Brady, do we ever bring up rushing stats? And do we ever combine the passing stats and rushing stats?


Those 2 no because neither is a rusher.

But I urge you to go back to some of the Rogers v. Rivers debates and watch KingofStats go off the rails because people wanted to include Rogers rushing in the equation.

I'd agree that it isn't right to just add like they are equal parts of the equation. But some of the comments seem to suggest that the ability to run is irrelevant when determining who is a better QB. That I diagree with. It's like saying receiving ability for a RB isn't important when discussing who the better RB is. If you are comparing them by saying who is the best "passer" that is one thing, but as a QB being able to run isn't such an unusual trait it needs to be factored to some degree.


There is a difference between mobile and being flat our runner in which they design plays for you to run the ball. In which im not implying he is a runner but is capable.

Is it fair or does it make sense to combine Cams TD and yardage and say that is more than rivers?

But the thing is, Cam is a rare athlete so obviously he is going to have more yards and TDS as a runner. Im not gonna panic if my QB cant run but i will panic my QB cant throw.

Peyton and Brady can run but they choose not because they arent effective doing it. But my point is that its not right to combine the passing and rushing stats to benefit your argument.
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Pugger


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bmorecareful wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Listen to this statement:

"Cam had more TDs for a season than Rivers has ever had if you include rushing"

Now tell me what is right about that?

Its not right to mesh the 2 as if a QB needs to be a good runner to be successful.

Whenever we have had comparisons between QBs i.e Peyton vs Brady, do we ever bring up rushing stats? And do we ever combine the passing stats and rushing stats?


I'm just so tired of this "pure passer" bs it's not even funny. First of all decision making is the most important part of quarterbacking PERIOD. To evaluate Cam as a quarterback and discount his athleticism is doing a disservice to the guys talent. He was the number one pick because of his combined skill set from the QB position. To bring up Brady and Manning's running ability is irrelevant when comparing those two not because it's not needed by quarterbacks in general but because it doesn't help either ones case. As a Ravens fan our defense (Rightfully so I might add) is always brought up when evaluating Joe Flacco. People use whatever they can to discredit a guy but production is production people say u can't combine stats like it was produced by two different players. Cam was still the QB when he was running therefore that goes with his production at the position I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. We re talking about playing quarterback and evaluating them based upon what they can do on the field from that position. QB doesn't stand for throw the ball only lol get over it


Absolutely! Your QB can have a cannon but if he screws up and makes lousy decisions he's doing you no favors no matter who we are talking about.

Right now Rivers is the better QB but I suspect Cam has more upside than Phil did during River's sophmore season so in the end Newton will most likely have the more successful career.

Waiting for KoS to come to Rivers defense in 3...2... Laughing
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reckless123


Joined: 02 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bmorecareful wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Listen to this statement:

"Cam had more TDs for a season than Rivers has ever had if you include rushing"

Now tell me what is right about that?

Its not right to mesh the 2 as if a QB needs to be a good runner to be successful.

Whenever we have had comparisons between QBs i.e Peyton vs Brady, do we ever bring up rushing stats? And do we ever combine the passing stats and rushing stats?


I'm just so tired of this "pure passer" bs it's not even funny. First of all decision making is the most important part of quarterbacking PERIOD. To evaluate Cam as a quarterback and discount his athleticism is doing a disservice to the guys talent. He was the number one pick because of his combined skill set from the QB position. To bring up Brady and Manning's running ability is irrelevant when comparing those two not because it's not needed by quarterbacks in general but because it doesn't help either ones case. As a Ravens fan our defense (Rightfully so I might add) is always brought up when evaluating Joe Flacco. People use whatever they can to discredit a guy but production is production people say u can't combine stats like it was produced by two different players. Cam was still the QB when he was running therefore that goes with his production at the position I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. We re talking about playing quarterback and evaluating them based upon what they can do on the field from that position. QB doesn't stand for throw the ball only lol get over it


No youre wrong being able to pass consistently is the most important thing as a QB, but i'll leave that discussion for another day.

Anyway back to the discussion, you just said being a to run is a required skill in general. Thats part of my argument. Brady is one of the best QBs ever without being able to run a lick. To say Player X has more TDs if you include rushing creates the assumption that who Player X is being compared to does the same thing. If i was dismissing Cams season, then i would be saying Cams rookie year wasnt very good. Im not dismissing his rushing ability but im simply saying you shouldnt include it when comparing it with QBs such as Rivers. Its like saying well when you compare cam with somebody youre allowed to bring up rushing but when its other QBs you cant do that. Or its like including a WR's rushing stats when comparing WRs.

Joe Flacco point seems irrelevant to me, Joe Flacco is irrelevant because some people think he hasnt performed well but while his defense or run game have performed to the required level.
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Jakuvious


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

incognito_man wrote:
Jakuvious wrote:


First of all, because you can't rely purely on statistics. So trying to frame an argument based on some....unique ones is flawed on a number of fronts.

Second, it throws things off significantly as far as proportions go. Cam Newton had a 4.06% TD rate when passing. He had an 11.11% TD rate when rushing. You can't just mash those together. When there is that big of a disparity, that really should be pretty obvious. The guy throws about 5 times as often as he runs. You manage to misrepresent both his rushing production and his passing production when you lump the two things together.


...and combine them into a picture which illustrates exactly what he is as a QB and not just a passer...

Yeah, that's the point.


It doesn't. It combines them into a picture that doesn't show anything about his play accurately. It combines them completely unnecessarily just to prove a point.
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incognito_man


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:


It doesn't. It combines them into a picture that doesn't show anything about his play accurately. It combines them completely unnecessarily just to prove a point.


How doesn't it show any accurately? Laughing

That's absurd...

It shows EXACTLY (over the course of 650ish events) how likely your team is to score a TD, turn the ball over or gain yards every time each QB is relied upon for a play.

It's a far better indication than just using passing any single passing stat. THAT cannot be argued.
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C0LTSFAN4L1F3


Joined: 27 Nov 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rodgers and Brady in thsir own tier? Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
"Brady and Rodgers dont have down years and peyton does"
WTF
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JammerHammer21


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C0LTSFAN4L1F3 wrote:
Rodgers and Brady in thsir own tier? Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
"Brady and Rodgers dont have down years and peyton does"
WTF


Yes because since Manning hadn't looked as great the previous few years and is coming off four major surgeries, he should be considered elite with the previous 2 MVPs. Rolling Eyes
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Warpticon


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just saw this thread for the first time. I also just saw who started it.

How do y'all keep falling for this? Laughing
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OneBadCat


Joined: 24 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bmorecareful wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Listen to this statement:

"Cam had more TDs for a season than Rivers has ever had if you include rushing"

Now tell me what is right about that?

Its not right to mesh the 2 as if a QB needs to be a good runner to be successful.

Whenever we have had comparisons between QBs i.e Peyton vs Brady, do we ever bring up rushing stats? And do we ever combine the passing stats and rushing stats?


I'm just so tired of this "pure passer" bs it's not even funny. First of all decision making is the most important part of quarterbacking PERIOD. To evaluate Cam as a quarterback and discount his athleticism is doing a disservice to the guys talent. He was the number one pick because of his combined skill set from the QB position. To bring up Brady and Manning's running ability is irrelevant when comparing those two not because it's not needed by quarterbacks in general but because it doesn't help either ones case. As a Ravens fan our defense (Rightfully so I might add) is always brought up when evaluating Joe Flacco. People use whatever they can to discredit a guy but production is production people say u can't combine stats like it was produced by two different players. Cam was still the QB when he was running therefore that goes with his production at the position I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. We re talking about playing quarterback and evaluating them based upon what they can do on the field from that position. QB doesn't stand for throw the ball only lol get over it


This guy has it right. You bring up a good point. Cam's athletic ability is part of what makes him dangerous. But if you guys don't think hecan ball as a passer than you are all in denial. You don't blow up the record books like he did and not be a competent passer. Cam's passing game probably isn't as developed as Rivers or Manning or Brady. But the fact is, is that he's getting there and he will work everyday until he gets that good as a passer. Even without his legs he probably has the strongest arm in the game.

You guys should define what you are comparing them as. As quarterbacks, or as passers. That does not necessarily mean the same thing. Even as a passer, Cam is in top 10 discussion. Now certainly no one would say that Newton is a better passer than Peyton or Brady. Maybe not even Rivers. But who would you rather have on your team, Cam or Rivers? Who's going to give you a better chance to win? It's still debatable at this point but down the road don't be surprised that it's Cam. He's just dangerous and makes a defense account for so much.

This comparison is like saying Calvin Johnson is a more skilled WR than Larry Fitzgerald or Reggie Wayne. He's not, but who would you rather have? Does his outrageous athletic ability make a convincing enough argument to say that he's the better WR? Either way it's an interesting discussion.
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