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Burleson Declares Calvin > Moss. Is He Right?
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Superman(DH23)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

th87 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
nixa37 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
I don't know - it's close. But Moss changed the game. You could see it the minute he took the field. He turned an elderly Randall Cunningham and Jeff George into Pro Bowl (or borderline) QBs. He was absolutely unstoppable for a time - terrified other teams. The Packers drafted DBs in the first three rounds of their next draft just so they could hang with him. While CJ is amazing, I never saw him singlehandedly change the WR position.


I can't help but laugh at comments like these. Moss was amazing but that offense had Cris Carter, Robert Smith, Jake Reed and 4 Pro Bowlers on the OL(1 of which is a HOFer).

It really is amazing how people forget how stacked that offense was and immediately try to give Moss sole credit for those QBs playing well.


They were around before Moss got there. How did the Vikings do then?

Instead of comparing vertical leaps and such, I'm just remembering their respective impacts on the game. 98 Moss was an absolute monster, and the NFC Central didn't know what to do with him.

And I HATE the Vikings. I have no reason to pimp Moss.


1995: Warren Moon - 16 starts - 4200+ yards, 33 TDs and 14 ints
1996: Brad Johnson - 8 starts - 2200+ yards, 17 TDs and 10 ints
1997: Brad Johnson - 13 starts - 3000+ yards, 20 TDs and 12 ints

So pretty well...
Let's all remember that Moss was drafted w/ the 24th pick, so the Vikings were a pretty good team before he got there. Did he make them better? Absolutely. Did he join a destitute offense? Not a chance in hell.

Well was anyone saying they were destitute on offense? I mean he was the one major difference between the 97 team that finished 9-7 while averaging 22.1 PPG and the 98 team that finished 15-1 while averaging 34.8 PPG. Their passing game made a huge leap forward too, improving from 7th in completion percentage to 3rd, 14th in passing yards to 1st, 6th in TDs to 1st, 17th in yards per attempt to 2nd, and 9th in QB rating to 1st.


Him and Cunningham taking over as a starter.


Yes, a journeyman out-of-football backup was the spark the Vikings needed.
If you think Cunningham was a journeyman football player, you don't know much about football.


Please kid. I've followed football since before you were born.

By the late 90s he was a journeyman. He was benched for Rodney Freaking Peete. Retired from football in 1996, and was signed as a BACKUP to Brad Johnson until he got injured in 1997. In 1998, Johnson broke his leg, allowing Cunningham to take over. So for you to imply that Cunningham was the same Tecmo Super Bowl beast of 1990 is beyond ridiculous.

Vikings QBs went from 26 TDs in 1997 to 41 in 1998.
Really how old am I? Considering I know that w/ few exceptions I'm usually one of the oldest people on the site, but sure you've followed football since before I was born w/o knowing when that was. The fact is you either don't understand the definition of a "journeyman" or you have no idea what you are talking about. Now since you are able to bring up some facts that I already knew, I'll assume that you just don't understand the definition of "journeyman"
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Superman(DH23)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:

I dont need to dust off squat. I'm an old man. Possibly older than you.
Isn't it funny to have somebody who has no idea how old we are come in and tell us they've been watching football since before we were born. LMAO
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Ahah Okay first of all Gamble was lost to IR this year but when healthy he proved to be 2nd only to Revis last season.
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th87


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:
th87 wrote:


You do see, don't you, the difference between a prime Brady, and a washed up Cunningham/George? Don't try to lump me in with NBT logic - I know what I saw when Moss came into the league.

The Vikings went from 9-7 with a respectable offense to 15-1 with a terrifying offense. The main change was Moss (Cunningham played the previous year).

Being a Packers fan, I get/got to watch them closely twice a year. I was never terrified of CJ as I was Moss.

You guys really need to dust off videotapes from 1998.


I dont need to dust off squat. I'm an old man. Possibly older than you. I know what I saw as well. I really great WR. And I know what I have seen since. Undue credit heaped on top of undue credit as the myth of Moss grows.

It doesnt matter if Brady was in his prime or not. The same exact BS logic was applied. "Look at the stats. Musta been Moss!" Moss helped. In both sets of circumstances Moss helped. But, in both circumstances, Moss had a ton of help as well.


Videotapes, because our minds tend to forget impressive feats over time; not because you're young.

Brady was an MVP QB of a Super Bowl contending team before Moss even got there. So to say Moss made Brady is clearly ridiculous. On the other hand, the Vikings QBs were mediocre to above average, and the team was mediocre to above average. Randy Moss came in and made Cunningham an MVP candidate, and turned the Vikings into a juggernaut who came within a fluke FG to the Super Bowl. In this case, it is fair to say that Moss played an enormous role, if not the main role.
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th87


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superman(DH23) wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:

I dont need to dust off squat. I'm an old man. Possibly older than you.
Isn't it funny to have somebody who has no idea how old we are come in and tell us they've been watching football since before we were born. LMAO


If you're above 30 and using "LMAO", then I'm sorry for my misjudgment.

But was or wasn't Randall Cunningham a backup-caliber QB by the late 90s? You seem to imply he was some stud the Vikings lucked into getting. LMAO
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th87


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superman(DH23) wrote:
Really how old am I? Considering I know that w/ few exceptions I'm usually one of the oldest people on the site, but sure you've followed football since before I was born w/o knowing when that was. The fact is you either don't understand the definition of a "journeyman" or you have no idea what you are talking about. Now since you are able to bring up some facts that I already knew, I'll assume that you just don't understand the definition of "journeyman"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journeyman_quarterback
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

th87 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:

I dont need to dust off squat. I'm an old man. Possibly older than you.
Isn't it funny to have somebody who has no idea how old we are come in and tell us they've been watching football since before we were born. LMAO


If you're above 30 and using "LMAO", then I'm sorry for my misjudgment.

But was or wasn't Randall Cunningham a backup-caliber QB by the late 90s? You seem to imply he was some stud the Vikings lucked into getting. LMAO


I get the point. But wonder if it would be a point best left out of the discussion when you use terms like "Lots of this" as a means of agreeing with someones post.

Neither is particularly "mature" in normal settings. But both are perfectly appropriate at any age in this medium.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

th87 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
th87 wrote:


You do see, don't you, the difference between a prime Brady, and a washed up Cunningham/George? Don't try to lump me in with NBT logic - I know what I saw when Moss came into the league.

The Vikings went from 9-7 with a respectable offense to 15-1 with a terrifying offense. The main change was Moss (Cunningham played the previous year).

Being a Packers fan, I get/got to watch them closely twice a year. I was never terrified of CJ as I was Moss.

You guys really need to dust off videotapes from 1998.


I dont need to dust off squat. I'm an old man. Possibly older than you. I know what I saw as well. I really great WR. And I know what I have seen since. Undue credit heaped on top of undue credit as the myth of Moss grows.

It doesnt matter if Brady was in his prime or not. The same exact BS logic was applied. "Look at the stats. Musta been Moss!" Moss helped. In both sets of circumstances Moss helped. But, in both circumstances, Moss had a ton of help as well.


Videotapes, because our minds tend to forget impressive feats over time; not because you're young.

Brady was an MVP QB of a Super Bowl contending team before Moss even got there. So to say Moss made Brady is clearly ridiculous. On the other hand, the Vikings QBs were mediocre to above average, and the team was mediocre to above average. Randy Moss came in and made Cunningham an MVP candidate, and turned the Vikings into a juggernaut who came within a fluke FG to the Super Bowl. In this case, it is fair to say that Moss played an enormous role, if not the main role.


If you are suggesting you sit around watching video tapes of Moss in order to jog your memory, I have to question

A: Just how unbiased you really are on the subject

and

B: Just how old you really are. I am 41. I remember him just fine.

I have no doubt Moss was the impetus for the improvement in both cases. But it's the degree of his impact I dispute. As well as the selective memory displayed when people discuss the type of help he had in both cases.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superman(DH23) wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:

I dont need to dust off squat. I'm an old man. Possibly older than you.
Isn't it funny to have somebody who has no idea how old we are come in and tell us they've been watching football since before we were born. LMAO


At least ask. You know? Dont assume. I mean, I have asked people in the past. But thats just it. I asked.
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th87


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:
th87 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:

I dont need to dust off squat. I'm an old man. Possibly older than you.
Isn't it funny to have somebody who has no idea how old we are come in and tell us they've been watching football since before we were born. LMAO


If you're above 30 and using "LMAO", then I'm sorry for my misjudgment.

But was or wasn't Randall Cunningham a backup-caliber QB by the late 90s? You seem to imply he was some stud the Vikings lucked into getting. LMAO


I get the point. But wonder if it would be a point best left out of the discussion when you use terms like "Lots of this" as a means of agreeing with someones post.

Neither is particularly "mature" in normal settings. But both are perfectly appropriate at any age in this medium.


I'm not even coming after you - my age jab was in response to the other guy's suggestion that I don't know football.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

th87 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
th87 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:

I dont need to dust off squat. I'm an old man. Possibly older than you.
Isn't it funny to have somebody who has no idea how old we are come in and tell us they've been watching football since before we were born. LMAO


If you're above 30 and using "LMAO", then I'm sorry for my misjudgment.

But was or wasn't Randall Cunningham a backup-caliber QB by the late 90s? You seem to imply he was some stud the Vikings lucked into getting. LMAO


I get the point. But wonder if it would be a point best left out of the discussion when you use terms like "Lots of this" as a means of agreeing with someones post.

Neither is particularly "mature" in normal settings. But both are perfectly appropriate at any age in this medium.


I'm not even coming after you - my age jab was in response to the other guy's suggestion that I don't know football.


I'm not trying to come at you, bro. Just sayin... something? Wink
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th87


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:
th87 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
th87 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:

I dont need to dust off squat. I'm an old man. Possibly older than you.
Isn't it funny to have somebody who has no idea how old we are come in and tell us they've been watching football since before we were born. LMAO


If you're above 30 and using "LMAO", then I'm sorry for my misjudgment.

But was or wasn't Randall Cunningham a backup-caliber QB by the late 90s? You seem to imply he was some stud the Vikings lucked into getting. LMAO


I get the point. But wonder if it would be a point best left out of the discussion when you use terms like "Lots of this" as a means of agreeing with someones post.

Neither is particularly "mature" in normal settings. But both are perfectly appropriate at any age in this medium.


I'm not even coming after you - my age jab was in response to the other guy's suggestion that I don't know football.


I'm not trying to come at you, bro. Just sayin... something? Wink


Laughing
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Superman(DH23)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

th87 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
Really how old am I? Considering I know that w/ few exceptions I'm usually one of the oldest people on the site, but sure you've followed football since before I was born w/o knowing when that was. The fact is you either don't understand the definition of a "journeyman" or you have no idea what you are talking about. Now since you are able to bring up some facts that I already knew, I'll assume that you just don't understand the definition of "journeyman"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journeyman_quarterback
Quote:
journeyman quarterback is a term used for an American Football (typically NFL) quarterback who plays for several teams over a career


See a Journeyman QB is a career backup or fill-in starter, not a franchise QB who belongs in the HOF. Kyle Orton, Dave Krieg, Chris Chandler. Those are Journeyman QBs. You might as well call Joe Montana a Journeyman QB if you are going to call Cunningham one. Was Cunningham the same explosive player that he was at the beginning of his career? Obviously not. But its not like he was a neverwas either. And has been pointed out, in 97 he accounted for 6 TDs in 3 starts. Just like we saw w/ Favre the last thing to go on these guys is the arm. Cunningham could still sling it w/ the best of them. Being behind that elite OL allowed him to sit in the pocket and exploit defenses w/ that ungodly arm.
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Ahah Okay first of all Gamble was lost to IR this year but when healthy he proved to be 2nd only to Revis last season.
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th87


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superman(DH23) wrote:
th87 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
Really how old am I? Considering I know that w/ few exceptions I'm usually one of the oldest people on the site, but sure you've followed football since before I was born w/o knowing when that was. The fact is you either don't understand the definition of a "journeyman" or you have no idea what you are talking about. Now since you are able to bring up some facts that I already knew, I'll assume that you just don't understand the definition of "journeyman"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journeyman_quarterback
Quote:
journeyman quarterback is a term used for an American Football (typically NFL) quarterback who plays for several teams over a career


See a Journeyman QB is a career backup or fill-in starter, not a franchise QB who belongs in the HOF. Kyle Orton, Dave Krieg, Chris Chandler. Those are Journeyman QBs. You might as well call Joe Montana a Journeyman QB if you are going to call Cunningham one. Was Cunningham the same explosive player that he was at the beginning of his career? Obviously not. But its not like he was a neverwas either. And has been pointed out, in 97 he accounted for 6 TDs in 3 starts. Just like we saw w/ Favre the last thing to go on these guys is the arm. Cunningham could still sling it w/ the best of them. Being behind that elite OL allowed him to sit in the pocket and exploit defenses w/ that ungodly arm.


We're going into semantics here. So he became a journeyman-level QB later in his career, as evidenced by losing his job to Rodney Peete, by not being able to beat out Brad Johnson, and his one year stints on multiple teams. Joe Montana still played at a high level in KC. The point is that he was no longer a starting caliber QB. Because virtually all of his PT after 96 was due to the starting QB getting injured. A three game sample doesn't make him a superstar (at that point in his career) any more than it did Kevin Kolb.

9-7, 354 points scored in 1997.
15-1, 556 points scored in 1998.

That is compelling evidence of Moss' impact. Randall Cunningham of 1998 without Moss wouldn't come close to that.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Probably the most impressive piece of his resume is how much better he made each of his quarterbacks. In hindsight, Brady's incredible season seemed almost inevitable when you combined one of the best QBs of all time with Moss' obscene talents. Here's a comparison of each of Moss' QBs throughout his career and their average stats with him and without him.

(Sidebar - I omitted the Raider years. It's my blog and, if The Sopranos can be on A & E, than I can edit the stats for my blog.)

Let's go in chronological order starting with Randall Cunningham.

(Sidebar - by the way, can anyone have lucked into a better situation than Randall did in 1998. He was out of the league in 1996 and the MIN backup in 1997. Then in 1998 Brad Johnson gets hurt and Randall comes in and, 10 times per game, he closes his eyes and throws the ball about a mile in the air - to nobody in particular - and Moss would casually sprint to where the ball was going, jump higher than anyone else, and Cunningham gets an All Pro year out of it. At the age of 35 and 6 years removed from his prime. I hope he bought Moss a nice Xmas gift that year.)

Randall Cunningham (1 season)
Average year:
w/out Moss
3,200 yards - 22 TDs
w/Moss
3,700 yards - 34 TDs (13th best single season total)

Jeff George (1 season)
Average year:
w/out Moss
220 yards per game - 17 TDs
w/Moss
282 yards per game - 23 TDs (and he only started 10 games - over 16 games this would project to 37 which would have been the 9th best ever)

Daunte Culpepper (4 full seasons)
Average year:
TOTAL w/out Moss
3,800 yards - 20 INTs, 13 TDs (again, that's his TOTALS for the 3 years since he played with Moss)
w/Moss
3,700 yards per season - 26 TDs (including 39 in 2004 - 6th best of all-time, 33 in 200 - 15th best)

And, of course...

Tom Brady (1 season)
Average year:
Average w/out Moss
3,600 yards - 25 TDs (obviously, Brady was already one of the best QBs ever before Moss came along. But, his career high in TDs was 28 - which he did in 2004 and 2002. That's the 55th best total of all time)
w/Moss
4,900 yards - 50 TDs (The 50 TDs is, obviously, a new record. The 4,896 passing yards is second only to Dan Marino's 5,084 in 1984. Brady's previous high was 4,110 - goo for 47th)


Again, Brady was an outstanding player before Moss and you can't attribute all of the jump in his numbers to Moss......but he sure helped.

Of the 4 qbs, only Jeff George did not break his career high in TD passes when he played with Moss. And that's because he only started 10 games - projected out over 16 games he would have crushed his career high.

Cunningham broke his career high by 4. Brady by 22 (22!!!). Culpepper had 26 more tds in 2004 than he has since he left Moss.

This may all be a coincidence - or maybe Moss is just so freaking good that everyone around him benefits (unless you're wearing black and gold)
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
Quote:
Probably the most impressive piece of his resume is how much better he made each of his quarterbacks. In hindsight, Brady's incredible season seemed almost inevitable when you combined one of the best QBs of all time with Moss' obscene talents. Here's a comparison of each of Moss' QBs throughout his career and their average stats with him and without him.

(Sidebar - I omitted the Raider years. It's my blog and, if The Sopranos can be on A & E, than I can edit the stats for my blog.)

Let's go in chronological order starting with Randall Cunningham.

(Sidebar - by the way, can anyone have lucked into a better situation than Randall did in 1998. He was out of the league in 1996 and the MIN backup in 1997. Then in 1998 Brad Johnson gets hurt and Randall comes in and, 10 times per game, he closes his eyes and throws the ball about a mile in the air - to nobody in particular - and Moss would casually sprint to where the ball was going, jump higher than anyone else, and Cunningham gets an All Pro year out of it. At the age of 35 and 6 years removed from his prime. I hope he bought Moss a nice Xmas gift that year.)

Randall Cunningham (1 season)
Average year:
w/out Moss
3,200 yards - 22 TDs
w/Moss
3,700 yards - 34 TDs (13th best single season total)

Jeff George (1 season)
Average year:
w/out Moss
220 yards per game - 17 TDs
w/Moss
282 yards per game - 23 TDs (and he only started 10 games - over 16 games this would project to 37 which would have been the 9th best ever)

Daunte Culpepper (4 full seasons)
Average year:
TOTAL w/out Moss
3,800 yards - 20 INTs, 13 TDs (again, that's his TOTALS for the 3 years since he played with Moss)
w/Moss
3,700 yards per season - 26 TDs (including 39 in 2004 - 6th best of all-time, 33 in 200 - 15th best)

And, of course...

Tom Brady (1 season)
Average year:
Average w/out Moss
3,600 yards - 25 TDs (obviously, Brady was already one of the best QBs ever before Moss came along. But, his career high in TDs was 28 - which he did in 2004 and 2002. That's the 55th best total of all time)
w/Moss
4,900 yards - 50 TDs (The 50 TDs is, obviously, a new record. The 4,896 passing yards is second only to Dan Marino's 5,084 in 1984. Brady's previous high was 4,110 - goo for 47th)


Again, Brady was an outstanding player before Moss and you can't attribute all of the jump in his numbers to Moss......but he sure helped.

Of the 4 qbs, only Jeff George did not break his career high in TD passes when he played with Moss. And that's because he only started 10 games - projected out over 16 games he would have crushed his career high.

Cunningham broke his career high by 4. Brady by 22 (22!!!). Culpepper had 26 more tds in 2004 than he has since he left Moss.

This may all be a coincidence - or maybe Moss is just so freaking good that everyone around him benefits (unless you're wearing black and gold)


I wont deny he makes QBs better, but New England was not as much the pass-happy team before they got Moss. I mean, they definitely passed a lot, but they ran the ball more back then than they have in the last 6 years. They also had a long period where their best WRs were an over-the-hill Troy Brown, Reche Caldwell, Doug Gabriel, David Givens, Deion Branch, David Patton, etc. When you look at those names, its says alot about Brady being able to do what he did. Obviously adding Moss into the equation helped, but you would have seen a severe increase if any top WR had come to New England because thats what they had been lacking, yet where still able to be a good passing team.

And to talk about Culpepper sucking after he lost Moss... didnt he have his knee injury the first season without him? Now, I know he wasnt playing well prior to the injury, but looking at Culpepper's career and it wasnt really atypical of him to play that way. The two seasons after his big breakout were very disappointing- and didnt he has Moss during that time? How on Earth could he not play great when he had Moss to throw to? I think its safe to say Culpepper was one of those guys that had a ll the tools, but was not great because he could light the world on fire one season and then tank it the next, Carson Palmer is the same way. Obviously Moss made him better, thats how it works. Marvin Harisson made Peyton Manning better, Isaac Bruce and Tory Holt made Kurt Warner better, Calvin Johnson makes Matt Stafford better, and on the flip side, all those QBs made their WRs better. Its a two-way street. Now, it would be ignorant to say that not having a great WR like Moss didnt affect Culpepper, but its pretty widely agreed upon that Culpepper was never the same after that injury.
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