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Burleson Declares Calvin > Moss. Is He Right?
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Worm Guts


Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 871
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Moss wasn't what made that offense deadly. Brady was. PEEEEE-REEEEE-OD.


Quote:
As if the jump in numbers from one year to the next was all Moss. Patently false. All of it. Its all myth


I just thought these two statements went a little too far. Moss was obviously a huge part of the improvement of that offense, even if you think he's given too much of the credit.
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J Pep 4 Step


Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 30080
Location: Greenvillain, NC
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worm Guts wrote:
Quote:
Moss wasn't what made that offense deadly. Brady was. PEEEEE-REEEEE-OD.


Quote:
As if the jump in numbers from one year to the next was all Moss. Patently false. All of it. Its all myth


I just thought these two statements went a little too far. Moss was obviously a huge part of the improvement of that offense, even if you think he's given too much of the credit.


I think you may be reading what I am saying wrong. Or maybe not.

First of all, the Brady point isnt arguable. Of the three players (Brady/Moss/Welker) nobody made it "go" more than Brady. It was his arm and his brain that made the difference.

And the jump in numbers was not all Moss. Welker arrived the same year. The little guy. The one that caught pass after pass and converted first down after first down to extend drives. The guy has averaged ridiculous numbers since arriving in NE. I hope you arent trying to minimize his impact.
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BBIB


Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 8771
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
Quote:
Moss wasn't what made that offense deadly. Brady was. PEEEEE-REEEEE-OD.


Quote:
As if the jump in numbers from one year to the next was all Moss. Patently false. All of it. Its all myth


I just thought these two statements went a little too far. Moss was obviously a huge part of the improvement of that offense, even if you think he's given too much of the credit.


I think you may be reading what I am saying wrong. Or maybe not.

First of all, the Brady point isnt arguable. Of the three players (Brady/Moss/Welker) nobody made it "go" more than Brady. It was his arm and his brain that made the difference.

And the jump in numbers was not all Moss. Welker arrived the same year. The little guy. The one that caught pass after pass and converted first down after first down to extend drives. The guy has averaged ridiculous numbers since arriving in NE. I hope you arent trying to minimize his impact.


I think you are taking it from one extreme to another. If someone says that Randy Moss is the sole reason the Patriots offense was great in 2007, obviously that would be absurd.

If that were the case then for every year of every team that Moss ever played for would have put up those numbers.

Obviously that's not the case. But you have taken it to the other extreme to almost suggest that the impact of Moss was negligible.

IN reality, what happened on the 2007 Pats is that an elite QB matched up with the best WR of his generation. And the greater spike to overall numbers was to Brady's numbers not those of Moss.

That's not taking anything away from Brady or Welker, it's just the impact of Moss who his whole career has made below average QBs look serviceable, serviceable ones look good, and a great one look all-world.

Now he may not have that type of impact on the game anymore, but if anything is a "myth" it's the idea that he didn't have that impact. The idea that guys like Calvin Johnson are a threat to have a career like Moss
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J Pep 4 Step


Joined: 01 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
Quote:
Moss wasn't what made that offense deadly. Brady was. PEEEEE-REEEEE-OD.


Quote:
As if the jump in numbers from one year to the next was all Moss. Patently false. All of it. Its all myth


I just thought these two statements went a little too far. Moss was obviously a huge part of the improvement of that offense, even if you think he's given too much of the credit.


I think you may be reading what I am saying wrong. Or maybe not.

First of all, the Brady point isnt arguable. Of the three players (Brady/Moss/Welker) nobody made it "go" more than Brady. It was his arm and his brain that made the difference.

And the jump in numbers was not all Moss. Welker arrived the same year. The little guy. The one that caught pass after pass and converted first down after first down to extend drives. The guy has averaged ridiculous numbers since arriving in NE. I hope you arent trying to minimize his impact.


I think you are taking it from one extreme to another. If someone says that Randy Moss is the sole reason the Patriots offense was great in 2007, obviously that would be absurd.

If that were the case then for every year of every team that Moss ever played for would have put up those numbers.

Obviously that's not the case. But you have taken it to the other extreme to almost suggest that the impact of Moss was negligible.

IN reality, what happened on the 2007 Pats is that an elite QB matched up with the best WR of his generation. And the greater spike to overall numbers was to Brady's numbers not those of Moss.

That's not taking anything away from Brady or Welker, it's just the impact of Moss who his whole career has made below average QBs look serviceable, serviceable ones look good, and a great one look all-world.

Now he may not have that type of impact on the game anymore, but if anything is a "myth" it's the idea that he didn't have that impact. The idea that guys like Calvin Johnson are a threat to have a career like Moss


I never suggested that. "Almost" or completely. If you go back in this thread, you will see where I said Moss's arrival probably had a larger impact than anything else on the 2007 Pats offense. I am not saying his impact was negligible. I am saying people are overplaying that impact.
'
If anything, people are pretty much saying, through ceaseless omission, that Welkers impact on the uptick opf that offense was negligible. Which is patently ridiculous. Give Moss his due. But give everyone else their due as well. The addition of Welker was huge for that offense as well. He deserves a lot of credit as well. But when Moss fans start talking about Moss and that 2007 season, Welker pretty much either didnt happen or was "just a product of Moss." False.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a perfect example.

Quote:
IN reality, what happened on the 2007 Pats is that an elite QB matched up with the best WR of his generation. And the greater spike to overall numbers was to Brady's numbers not those of Moss.


Not a mention of Welker anywhere. Its as if Welker never happened. Couldnt it be possible that the greater spike being Brady's numbers was because he got TWO amazing targets?

But you seem to be reducing it to Moss and Brady. As if to say, "Brady's numbers spiked higher. So Moss clearly had the bigger impact on Brady." No mention of Welkers impact at all. The credit goes 100% to Moss.

Thats the myth I am talking about.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23396

Wink
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BBIB


Joined: 20 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:
BBIB wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
Quote:
Moss wasn't what made that offense deadly. Brady was. PEEEEE-REEEEE-OD.


Quote:
As if the jump in numbers from one year to the next was all Moss. Patently false. All of it. Its all myth


I just thought these two statements went a little too far. Moss was obviously a huge part of the improvement of that offense, even if you think he's given too much of the credit.


I think you may be reading what I am saying wrong. Or maybe not.

First of all, the Brady point isnt arguable. Of the three players (Brady/Moss/Welker) nobody made it "go" more than Brady. It was his arm and his brain that made the difference.

And the jump in numbers was not all Moss. Welker arrived the same year. The little guy. The one that caught pass after pass and converted first down after first down to extend drives. The guy has averaged ridiculous numbers since arriving in NE. I hope you arent trying to minimize his impact.


I think you are taking it from one extreme to another. If someone says that Randy Moss is the sole reason the Patriots offense was great in 2007, obviously that would be absurd.

If that were the case then for every year of every team that Moss ever played for would have put up those numbers.

Obviously that's not the case. But you have taken it to the other extreme to almost suggest that the impact of Moss was negligible.

IN reality, what happened on the 2007 Pats is that an elite QB matched up with the best WR of his generation. And the greater spike to overall numbers was to Brady's numbers not those of Moss.

That's not taking anything away from Brady or Welker, it's just the impact of Moss who his whole career has made below average QBs look serviceable, serviceable ones look good, and a great one look all-world.

Now he may not have that type of impact on the game anymore, but if anything is a "myth" it's the idea that he didn't have that impact. The idea that guys like Calvin Johnson are a threat to have a career like Moss


I never suggested that. "Almost" or completely. If you go back in this thread, you will see where I said Moss's arrival probably had a larger impact than anything else on the 2007 Pats offense. I am not saying his impact was negligible. I am saying people are overplaying that impact.
'
If anything, people are pretty much saying, through ceaseless omission, that Welkers impact on the uptick opf that offense was negligible. Which is patently ridiculous. Give Moss his due. But give everyone else their due as well. The addition of Welker was huge for that offense as well. He deserves a lot of credit as well. But when Moss fans start talking about Moss and that 2007 season, Welker pretty much either didnt happen or was "just a product of Moss." False.


Fair enough. I see where you are coming from. If you acknowledge that the addition of Moss was the most significant upgrade but that it wasn't the ONLY upgrade. BTW, didn't Stallworth play decent that year as well?

I don't think Moss career should be summed up in those 2 years either. It's just a pretty neat feature that he was the best offensive skill player on the two greatest offenses in NFL history.

That alone isn't why it's silly to say Calvin Johnson is greater than him, it's his entire body of work that Calvin Johnson is not on pace to match and neither is Fitzgerald

Records are made to be broken, and if there is a receiver to surpass Moss and get closer to Jerry Rice, they don't appear to be in the league right now
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23396

Wink


I know Culpepper never was healthy when he left Minnesota but it's interesting how many people thought he was elite back in the day when he got to throw to Randy Moss.

I had no idea they would shatter the record books in the fashion that they did but when Moss signed in New England to play with an already established elite QB in his prime, I knew he would put up dominant numbers.

It's again just too bad it didn't happen earlier or maybe just maybe Moss could be within striking distance of Jerry Rice on the all-time TD list

But 2 wasted years in Oakland and the last 2 years basically wasted, and Moss doesn't have that opportunity.

He will at least finish ahead of TO though
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gosh, it gets tiring looking at all these threads filled with comments about what CJ can't do.

He has demonstrated an ability to be a great receiver regardless of who is throwing him the ball. Until last year the Lions didn't even have continuity at the QB position and he managed to put up great numbers.

In 2008 he had 1331 yards, 12 TD's and 17.1 Y/R.

That was with a carousel of Quarterbacks,

Jon Kitna, Dan Orlovsky, Drew Stanton and Daunte Culppeper. None of whom started enough games to ever really establish any type of chemistry with CJ.

Anything is possible with CJ. I think many of you will be able to look back when he hangs up the cleats and see how wrong you were.
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Yfz01


Joined: 18 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:

Anything is possible with CJ. I think many of you will be able to look back when he hangs up the cleats and see how wrong you were.


I wouldn't take it personal. It's RANDY MOSS he's being compared to. That's a compliment itself.
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