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Burleson Declares Calvin > Moss. Is He Right?
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footy_29


Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 11410
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vikefan79 wrote:
Nobody set the league on fire like Moss did in 98. 17 TD's as a rookie!


I side with this opinion and those that say that Calvin could have a better career. Stafford looks like a franchise QB, and that's something that Moss (except Brady) and Fitz (except for Warner) have not had consistently. It is conceivable that Stafford and Calvin coul eb together for another 5+ years and that could really help pad the numbers.

Moss is still the superfreak - just a graceful player who got bored, which is no indication of his talent.
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nugpimpen


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobikus wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
Bobikus wrote:
Calvin has GOAT potential at WR, so yeah, he can surpass Moss if things go well for him.


People can say this if they want to but he doesn't. He doesn't have the potential to surpass Rice.


I see absolutely no reason that he doesn't beyond media deification of Rice.


Totally agree.

How can you see he doesn't have the potential?? He has elite top end speed. He is the best WR in the league in going up to get the ball. He is completely unselfish. Great route runner and has elite hands. He also has a top QB which helps a ton.

He has everything Moss had, except his character won't hold him back.

I'm not saying he will surpass him, but he definitely could.
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JDKing14


Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
Vikefan79 wrote:
Nobody set the league on fire like Moss did in 98. 17 TD's as a rookie!


I side with this opinion and those that say that Calvin could have a better career. Stafford looks like a franchise QB, and that's something that Moss (except Brady) and Fitz (except for Warner) have not had consistently. It is conceivable that Stafford and Calvin coul eb together for another 5+ years and that could really help pad the numbers.

Moss is still the superfreak - just a graceful player who got bored, which is no indication of his talent.


But it IS an indication of what kind of player he is...
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skatebeanz


Joined: 13 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
Vikefan79 wrote:
Nobody set the league on fire like Moss did in 98. 17 TD's as a rookie!


I side with this opinion and those that say that Calvin could have a better career. Stafford looks like a franchise QB, and that's something that Moss (except Brady) and Fitz (except for Warner) have not had consistently. It is conceivable that Stafford and Calvin could be together for another 5+ years and that could really help pad the numbers.

Moss is still the superfreak - just a graceful player who got bored, which is no indication of his talent.
he has had a legit QB 1 time in his career and people are saying his stats don't add up yet. You can't have ti both ways. Culpepper was a legit QB until his injury for what 5 years? Then Moss had Brady for 3 1/4 years. So Randy had a legit QB for ~8 years.

He has only played 10+ games in 12 years. So 2/3 of his career he has had a legit to elite QB. You hardly need to say he had no QB.

On the other hand Calvin has had a legit QB for 1 year out of his first 5 years or 20%.

Edit: My Moss QB does show Cunningham who was legit and led the best offense ever (to that point). He was more than suitable. So 3/4
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OneBadCat


Joined: 24 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's possible that Calvin could surpass Moss, he could get the numbers over time. But it's hard to say if he could ever impact the game the way Moss has. However I see Calvin being a really effective player well into his 30's. WR's can last a long time in this league. If Calvin stays in shape he can easily retain his speed and athletic ability into his 30's with no drop off.
Remember, this guy is like the Julius Peppers of WR's.
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El ramster


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OneBadCat wrote:
I think it's possible that Calvin could surpass Moss, he could get the numbers over time. But it's hard to say if he could ever impact the game the way Moss has. However I see Calvin being a really effective player well into his 30's. WR's can last a long time in this league. If Calvin stays in shape he can easily retain his speed and athletic ability into his 30's with no drop off.
Remember, this guy is like the Julius Peppers of WR's.


That's not saying much. Even Pep has lost some production.
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OneBadCat


Joined: 24 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

El ramster wrote:
OneBadCat wrote:
I think it's possible that Calvin could surpass Moss, he could get the numbers over time. But it's hard to say if he could ever impact the game the way Moss has. However I see Calvin being a really effective player well into his 30's. WR's can last a long time in this league. If Calvin stays in shape he can easily retain his speed and athletic ability into his 30's with no drop off.
Remember, this guy is like the Julius Peppers of WR's.


That's not saying much. Even Pep has lost some production.


Well I meant that in terms of his natural ability. But Peppers has also bulked up a lot compared to his earlier years. And I personally still question his drive with the stuff I've seen from him before.
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seminoles1


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobikus wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
Bobikus wrote:
Calvin has GOAT potential at WR, so yeah, he can surpass Moss if things go well for him.


People can say this if they want to but he doesn't. He doesn't have the potential to surpass Rice.
I see absolutely no reason that he doesn't beyond media deification of Rice.
Agreed. Calvin has everything you want in a WR and can still get better.

I know people will mention Rice's 1st Team All-Pro selections and how they will always separate him from the pack, but Rice had some questionable selections in his career that I think had to do simply with his name being Jerry Rice. In Calvin's case, he has had a few seasons that were more impressive numerically than a couple of Rice's 1st Team All-Pro seasons and Calvin didn't even make the Pro Bowl or 2nd Team All-Pro.
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tonyto3690


Joined: 29 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:

How can you see he doesn't have the potential?? He has elite top end speed. He is the best WR in the league in going up to get the ball. He is completely unselfish. Great route runner and has elite hands. He also has a top QB which helps a ton.

He has everything Moss had, except his character won't hold him back.

I'm not saying he will surpass him, but he definitely could.


Bolded means you have zero credibility in evaluating receivers from now to forever.

People love to get caught up in the moment and in the hype. Calvin is a great receiver, but he isn't as dominant as Moss was. Moss was a walking homerun play. While Calvin certainly also has that ability it's not nearly to the extent Moss was. Every touch Moss had there was a good chance for a touchdown no matter where on the field he was.

Also for those talking about primes of career, by the time Moss turned 26 he had 77 career touchdowns. Just because the next couple years before uniting with Brady were wasted because of horrible QB play doesn't mean he suddenly forgot how to catch the ball. Moss' first 7 seasons he averaged 13 TDs a season. Calvin has only passed that ONCE in his career. This is all not even taking into account how it compares to the era and their contemporaries. No one else was remotely close to Moss in his prime. Calvin has plenty of competition and plays in an extremely pass friendly league. Moss was allowed to get mugged 15 yards downfield, Calvin is home free after 5 yards.

Calvin isn't statistically even close to Moss, and accounting for era's it really is not even close. You can make a case that Calvin is better across the middle and just a stronger receiver and that's in his favor, but as far as flat out production goes it is not even remotely close.
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nugpimpen


Joined: 18 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tonyto3690 wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:

How can you see he doesn't have the potential?? He has elite top end speed. He is the best WR in the league in going up to get the ball. He is completely unselfish. Great route runner and has elite hands. He also has a top QB which helps a ton.

He has everything Moss had, except his character won't hold him back.

I'm not saying he will surpass him, but he definitely could.


Bolded means you have zero credibility in evaluating receivers from now to forever.

People love to get caught up in the moment and in the hype. Calvin is a great receiver, but he isn't as dominant as Moss was. Moss was a walking homerun play. While Calvin certainly also has that ability it's not nearly to the extent Moss was. Every touch Moss had there was a good chance for a touchdown no matter where on the field he was.

Also for those talking about primes of career, by the time Moss turned 26 he had 77 career touchdowns. Just because the next couple years before uniting with Brady were wasted because of horrible QB play doesn't mean he suddenly forgot how to catch the ball. Moss' first 7 seasons he averaged 13 TDs a season. Calvin has only passed that ONCE in his career. This is all not even taking into account how it compares to the era and their contemporaries. No one else was remotely close to Moss in his prime. Calvin has plenty of competition and plays in an extremely pass friendly league. Moss was allowed to get mugged 15 yards downfield, Calvin is home free after 5 yards.

Calvin isn't statistically even close to Moss, and accounting for era's it really is not even close. You can make a case that Calvin is better across the middle and just a stronger receiver and that's in his favor, but as far as flat out production goes it is not even remotely close.


Did I say his route running or hands were better than or compared to Randy's? NOOOOO

I simply stated that he is elite in both areas. Even if he is just very good, it's not that crazy of a statement.

It is ironic coming from you though.
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nugpimpen


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:
tonyto3690 wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:

How can you see he doesn't have the potential?? He has elite top end speed. He is the best WR in the league in going up to get the ball. He is completely unselfish. Great route runner and has elite hands. He also has a top QB which helps a ton.

He has everything Moss had, except his character won't hold him back.

I'm not saying he will surpass him, but he definitely could.


Bolded means you have zero credibility in evaluating receivers from now to forever.

People love to get caught up in the moment and in the hype. Calvin is a great receiver, but he isn't as dominant as Moss was. Moss was a walking homerun play. While Calvin certainly also has that ability it's not nearly to the extent Moss was. Every touch Moss had there was a good chance for a touchdown no matter where on the field he was.

Also for those talking about primes of career, by the time Moss turned 26 he had 77 career touchdowns. Just because the next couple years before uniting with Brady were wasted because of horrible QB play doesn't mean he suddenly forgot how to catch the ball. Moss' first 7 seasons he averaged 13 TDs a season. Calvin has only passed that ONCE in his career. This is all not even taking into account how it compares to the era and their contemporaries. No one else was remotely close to Moss in his prime. Calvin has plenty of competition and plays in an extremely pass friendly league. Moss was allowed to get mugged 15 yards downfield, Calvin is home free after 5 yards.

Calvin isn't statistically even close to Moss, and accounting for era's it really is not even close. You can make a case that Calvin is better across the middle and just a stronger receiver and that's in his favor, but as far as flat out production goes it is not even remotely close.


Did I say his route running or hands were better than or compared to Randy's? NOOOOO

I simply stated that he is elite in both areas. Even if he is just very good, it's not that crazy of a statement.

It is ironic coming from you though.


My main point is that I believe Calvin has ALL the tools to be as good as one can imagine.

I think the fact that he could play his whole career with a top QB and the fact that he is selfless are the things that could put him past Moss.
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reckless123


Joined: 02 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Calvin and Moss are similar players. But i'd give the edge to Moss, he was just a freak at going deep. But i think an argument can be made that Calvin is the more all round, meaning in running the route tree. Im not saying Moss couldnt run the whole tree but he wasnt great at it.
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yupyup


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate Moss and am a huge fan of Calvin, but with that said Megatron has a ways to go before he catches up to Moss. He might not be in his prime yet, but he'll have to get substantially better to be better then Moss was.
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seminoles1


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tonyto3690 wrote:
Just because the next couple years before uniting with Brady were wasted because of horrible QB play doesn't mean he suddenly forgot how to catch the ball.
While I agree with a good bit of your post, you could say this same thing about the first 4 years of Johnson's career.
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SFaithful97


Joined: 08 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
The guy plays the same position as they do and played with both of them. His opinion is certainly as relevant as anyone else's.
He is also currently a teammate of one, on a team that is about to play the other. Of course he is saying that, he would whether he believed it or not.
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