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Burleson Declares Calvin > Moss. Is He Right?
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th87


Joined: 04 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plus Moss was in an era of more physical secondary play. Try to watch his games in 98. If there was a deep ball thrown his way, he was coming down with it. Teams didn't have an answer for him starting from Day 1. It took CJ some time before he reached dominance, and even then he's still not the nightmare that Moss was.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nixa37 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
I don't know - it's close. But Moss changed the game. You could see it the minute he took the field. He turned an elderly Randall Cunningham and Jeff George into Pro Bowl (or borderline) QBs. He was absolutely unstoppable for a time - terrified other teams. The Packers drafted DBs in the first three rounds of their next draft just so they could hang with him. While CJ is amazing, I never saw him singlehandedly change the WR position.


I can't help but laugh at comments like these. Moss was amazing but that offense had Cris Carter, Robert Smith, Jake Reed and 4 Pro Bowlers on the OL(1 of which is a HOFer).

It really is amazing how people forget how stacked that offense was and immediately try to give Moss sole credit for those QBs playing well.


They were around before Moss got there. How did the Vikings do then?

Instead of comparing vertical leaps and such, I'm just remembering their respective impacts on the game. 98 Moss was an absolute monster, and the NFC Central didn't know what to do with him.

And I HATE the Vikings. I have no reason to pimp Moss.


1995: Warren Moon - 16 starts - 4200+ yards, 33 TDs and 14 ints
1996: Brad Johnson - 8 starts - 2200+ yards, 17 TDs and 10 ints
1997: Brad Johnson - 13 starts - 3000+ yards, 20 TDs and 12 ints

So pretty well...
Let's all remember that Moss was drafted w/ the 24th pick, so the Vikings were a pretty good team before he got there. Did he make them better? Absolutely. Did he join a destitute offense? Not a chance in hell.

Well was anyone saying they were destitute on offense? I mean he was the one major difference between the 97 team that finished 9-7 while averaging 22.1 PPG and the 98 team that finished 15-1 while averaging 34.8 PPG. Their passing game made a huge leap forward too, improving from 7th in completion percentage to 3rd, 14th in passing yards to 1st, 6th in TDs to 1st, 17th in yards per attempt to 2nd, and 9th in QB rating to 1st.


Him and Cunningham taking over as a starter.
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th87


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
nixa37 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
I don't know - it's close. But Moss changed the game. You could see it the minute he took the field. He turned an elderly Randall Cunningham and Jeff George into Pro Bowl (or borderline) QBs. He was absolutely unstoppable for a time - terrified other teams. The Packers drafted DBs in the first three rounds of their next draft just so they could hang with him. While CJ is amazing, I never saw him singlehandedly change the WR position.


I can't help but laugh at comments like these. Moss was amazing but that offense had Cris Carter, Robert Smith, Jake Reed and 4 Pro Bowlers on the OL(1 of which is a HOFer).

It really is amazing how people forget how stacked that offense was and immediately try to give Moss sole credit for those QBs playing well.


They were around before Moss got there. How did the Vikings do then?

Instead of comparing vertical leaps and such, I'm just remembering their respective impacts on the game. 98 Moss was an absolute monster, and the NFC Central didn't know what to do with him.

And I HATE the Vikings. I have no reason to pimp Moss.


1995: Warren Moon - 16 starts - 4200+ yards, 33 TDs and 14 ints
1996: Brad Johnson - 8 starts - 2200+ yards, 17 TDs and 10 ints
1997: Brad Johnson - 13 starts - 3000+ yards, 20 TDs and 12 ints

So pretty well...
Let's all remember that Moss was drafted w/ the 24th pick, so the Vikings were a pretty good team before he got there. Did he make them better? Absolutely. Did he join a destitute offense? Not a chance in hell.

Well was anyone saying they were destitute on offense? I mean he was the one major difference between the 97 team that finished 9-7 while averaging 22.1 PPG and the 98 team that finished 15-1 while averaging 34.8 PPG. Their passing game made a huge leap forward too, improving from 7th in completion percentage to 3rd, 14th in passing yards to 1st, 6th in TDs to 1st, 17th in yards per attempt to 2nd, and 9th in QB rating to 1st.


Him and Cunningham taking over as a starter.


Yes, a journeyman out-of-football backup was the spark the Vikings needed.
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nixa37


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
nixa37 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
I don't know - it's close. But Moss changed the game. You could see it the minute he took the field. He turned an elderly Randall Cunningham and Jeff George into Pro Bowl (or borderline) QBs. He was absolutely unstoppable for a time - terrified other teams. The Packers drafted DBs in the first three rounds of their next draft just so they could hang with him. While CJ is amazing, I never saw him singlehandedly change the WR position.


I can't help but laugh at comments like these. Moss was amazing but that offense had Cris Carter, Robert Smith, Jake Reed and 4 Pro Bowlers on the OL(1 of which is a HOFer).

It really is amazing how people forget how stacked that offense was and immediately try to give Moss sole credit for those QBs playing well.


They were around before Moss got there. How did the Vikings do then?

Instead of comparing vertical leaps and such, I'm just remembering their respective impacts on the game. 98 Moss was an absolute monster, and the NFC Central didn't know what to do with him.

And I HATE the Vikings. I have no reason to pimp Moss.


1995: Warren Moon - 16 starts - 4200+ yards, 33 TDs and 14 ints
1996: Brad Johnson - 8 starts - 2200+ yards, 17 TDs and 10 ints
1997: Brad Johnson - 13 starts - 3000+ yards, 20 TDs and 12 ints

So pretty well...
Let's all remember that Moss was drafted w/ the 24th pick, so the Vikings were a pretty good team before he got there. Did he make them better? Absolutely. Did he join a destitute offense? Not a chance in hell.

Well was anyone saying they were destitute on offense? I mean he was the one major difference between the 97 team that finished 9-7 while averaging 22.1 PPG and the 98 team that finished 15-1 while averaging 34.8 PPG. Their passing game made a huge leap forward too, improving from 7th in completion percentage to 3rd, 14th in passing yards to 1st, 6th in TDs to 1st, 17th in yards per attempt to 2nd, and 9th in QB rating to 1st.


Him and Cunningham taking over as a starter.


Yes, a journeyman out-of-football backup was the spark the Vikings needed.

Seriously, he started a few games the previous season with pretty much the same offense minus Moss and was pretty awful.
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Superman(DH23)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
nixa37 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
I don't know - it's close. But Moss changed the game. You could see it the minute he took the field. He turned an elderly Randall Cunningham and Jeff George into Pro Bowl (or borderline) QBs. He was absolutely unstoppable for a time - terrified other teams. The Packers drafted DBs in the first three rounds of their next draft just so they could hang with him. While CJ is amazing, I never saw him singlehandedly change the WR position.


I can't help but laugh at comments like these. Moss was amazing but that offense had Cris Carter, Robert Smith, Jake Reed and 4 Pro Bowlers on the OL(1 of which is a HOFer).

It really is amazing how people forget how stacked that offense was and immediately try to give Moss sole credit for those QBs playing well.


They were around before Moss got there. How did the Vikings do then?

Instead of comparing vertical leaps and such, I'm just remembering their respective impacts on the game. 98 Moss was an absolute monster, and the NFC Central didn't know what to do with him.

And I HATE the Vikings. I have no reason to pimp Moss.


1995: Warren Moon - 16 starts - 4200+ yards, 33 TDs and 14 ints
1996: Brad Johnson - 8 starts - 2200+ yards, 17 TDs and 10 ints
1997: Brad Johnson - 13 starts - 3000+ yards, 20 TDs and 12 ints

So pretty well...
Let's all remember that Moss was drafted w/ the 24th pick, so the Vikings were a pretty good team before he got there. Did he make them better? Absolutely. Did he join a destitute offense? Not a chance in hell.

Well was anyone saying they were destitute on offense? I mean he was the one major difference between the 97 team that finished 9-7 while averaging 22.1 PPG and the 98 team that finished 15-1 while averaging 34.8 PPG. Their passing game made a huge leap forward too, improving from 7th in completion percentage to 3rd, 14th in passing yards to 1st, 6th in TDs to 1st, 17th in yards per attempt to 2nd, and 9th in QB rating to 1st.


Him and Cunningham taking over as a starter.


Yes, a journeyman out-of-football backup was the spark the Vikings needed.
If you think Cunningham was a journeyman football player, you don't know much about football.
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th87


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superman(DH23) wrote:
th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
nixa37 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
I don't know - it's close. But Moss changed the game. You could see it the minute he took the field. He turned an elderly Randall Cunningham and Jeff George into Pro Bowl (or borderline) QBs. He was absolutely unstoppable for a time - terrified other teams. The Packers drafted DBs in the first three rounds of their next draft just so they could hang with him. While CJ is amazing, I never saw him singlehandedly change the WR position.


I can't help but laugh at comments like these. Moss was amazing but that offense had Cris Carter, Robert Smith, Jake Reed and 4 Pro Bowlers on the OL(1 of which is a HOFer).

It really is amazing how people forget how stacked that offense was and immediately try to give Moss sole credit for those QBs playing well.


They were around before Moss got there. How did the Vikings do then?

Instead of comparing vertical leaps and such, I'm just remembering their respective impacts on the game. 98 Moss was an absolute monster, and the NFC Central didn't know what to do with him.

And I HATE the Vikings. I have no reason to pimp Moss.


1995: Warren Moon - 16 starts - 4200+ yards, 33 TDs and 14 ints
1996: Brad Johnson - 8 starts - 2200+ yards, 17 TDs and 10 ints
1997: Brad Johnson - 13 starts - 3000+ yards, 20 TDs and 12 ints

So pretty well...
Let's all remember that Moss was drafted w/ the 24th pick, so the Vikings were a pretty good team before he got there. Did he make them better? Absolutely. Did he join a destitute offense? Not a chance in hell.

Well was anyone saying they were destitute on offense? I mean he was the one major difference between the 97 team that finished 9-7 while averaging 22.1 PPG and the 98 team that finished 15-1 while averaging 34.8 PPG. Their passing game made a huge leap forward too, improving from 7th in completion percentage to 3rd, 14th in passing yards to 1st, 6th in TDs to 1st, 17th in yards per attempt to 2nd, and 9th in QB rating to 1st.


Him and Cunningham taking over as a starter.


Yes, a journeyman out-of-football backup was the spark the Vikings needed.
If you think Cunningham was a journeyman football player, you don't know much about football.


Please kid. I've followed football since before you were born.

By the late 90s he was a journeyman. He was benched for Rodney Freaking Peete. Retired from football in 1996, and was signed as a BACKUP to Brad Johnson until he got injured in 1997. In 1998, Johnson broke his leg, allowing Cunningham to take over. So for you to imply that Cunningham was the same Tecmo Super Bowl beast of 1990 is beyond ridiculous.

Vikings QBs went from 26 TDs in 1997 to 41 in 1998.
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
lizardking28 wrote:
Why do people say Moss had a better vertical than Calvin? Moss jumped 39", Calvin Jumped 43" and 45".



Moss did 43, and it translated better than calvins.



Air Moss, body fully extended, waaay off the ground. Compare the distance between the ground and feet



Moss gets a lot more air than calvin. A LOT more.


LOL

I'm not arguing for either side, but you cant say one guy jumps higher based off of two different pictures taken at different times in different situations. Who knows how high those passes were thrown or at what point in the jump the WR is in at the moment the picture was taken? Is he catching the ball at the peak of his jump, or had he already caught it and was already on his way back down when the pic was snapped?
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
Yfz01 wrote:
Why are you bringing up 88-90 with Cunningham? The three years prior to having Moss, the guy tossed 25 Touchdown's and 23 Interceptions in sparse playing time. He was clearly NOT the same QB he was 10 years prior to playing with Moss Laughing


He said without the freak, he sucked. I pointed out that was not at all true. And why is it that Moss made Cunningham? The Vikings had a Pro Bowl HB in Robert Smith, a HOF WR in Cris Carter and another Pro Bowl WR in Jake Reed. I'm sure a HOF WR in Moss played a big role in Cunningham's stats but it's not like we're talking about the Randy Moss show. That was a stacked offense with a very good OL. What made Cunningham that year? The overall talent of the offense, not Moss.

Quote:
2005 Culpepper was struggling well before his injury. In 04', his stats were clearly better when Moss was on the field. Good quarterback, maybe, but made better by the talent.


In 2005, Culpepper was being Culpepper. He was always a streaky QB and he started that year off terribly. He threw 0 TDs to 8 ints in the first 2 weeks. But after those 2 games, he rebounded over the next 4 to throw 6 TDs to 4 ints and an overall QBR of 90.3 before he blew his knee out.

Of course his stats were better when Moss was on the field, he's a HOF WR. The point is that Culpepper wasn't some incompetent and terrible QB in Minnesota that was only serviceable because of Moss. He was a good QB. Great at times.

Quote:
Cassel is obviously better now than he was when he had Randy Moss. In fact, by the 2nd half of the season in New England he was already a great deal better than he was at the beginning of the season. Guess that's what happens when it's your first playing time since high school. Oh, and his stats were clearly better in New England throwing to Moss.


They were, were they?
Matt Cassel - 2008:
3693 yards, 7.2 YPA, 21 TDs to 11 ints and a 89.4 QBR

Matt Cassel - 2010:
3116 yards, 6.9 YPA, 27 TDs to 7 ints and a 93.0 QBR

Looks like he was better in 2010 in KC with Bowe than he was in 08 in NE.


Plus I never said Cunningham, George or Collins were really good, but they were much better than Shaun Hill and Dan Orlovsky.
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
I don't know - it's close. But Moss changed the game. You could see it the minute he took the field. He turned an elderly Randall Cunningham and Jeff George into Pro Bowl (or borderline) QBs. He was absolutely unstoppable for a time - terrified other teams. The Packers drafted DBs in the first three rounds of their next draft just so they could hang with him. While CJ is amazing, I never saw him singlehandedly change the WR position.


I can't help but laugh at comments like these. Moss was amazing but that offense had Cris Carter, Robert Smith, Jake Reed and 4 Pro Bowlers on the OL(1 of which is a HOFer).

It really is amazing how people forget how stacked that offense was and immediately try to give Moss sole credit for those QBs playing well.


I actually consider Moss better, but I do like playing Devil's advocate and disagree with a lot of the reasoning in this thread. Moss was great, an absolute monster, and he absolutely made that offense much better. However, that offense already included one of the best RBs at the time, and a future HoF WR. This was an offense that producde a 1200 yard rusher and 2 1000 yard WRs while Moss was still in college. And that was with Brad Johnson at QB. Thats not to take anything awat from Moss, he definitely made that offense a lot better, but to say he made that offense is a bit much.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:
lizardking28 wrote:
Why do people say Moss had a better vertical than Calvin? Moss jumped 39", Calvin Jumped 43" and 45".



Moss did 43, and it translated better than calvins.



Air Moss, body fully extended, waaay off the ground. Compare the distance between the ground and feet



Moss gets a lot more air than calvin. A LOT more.


LOL

I'm not arguing for either side, but you cant say one guy jumps higher based off of two different pictures taken at different times in different situations. Who knows how high those passes were thrown or at what point in the jump the WR is in at the moment the picture was taken? Is he catching the ball at the peak of his jump, or had he already caught it and was already on his way back down when the pic was snapped?


lol i was going to say the same thing. probably the most flimsy argument ever.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
nixa37 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
I don't know - it's close. But Moss changed the game. You could see it the minute he took the field. He turned an elderly Randall Cunningham and Jeff George into Pro Bowl (or borderline) QBs. He was absolutely unstoppable for a time - terrified other teams. The Packers drafted DBs in the first three rounds of their next draft just so they could hang with him. While CJ is amazing, I never saw him singlehandedly change the WR position.


I can't help but laugh at comments like these. Moss was amazing but that offense had Cris Carter, Robert Smith, Jake Reed and 4 Pro Bowlers on the OL(1 of which is a HOFer).

It really is amazing how people forget how stacked that offense was and immediately try to give Moss sole credit for those QBs playing well.


They were around before Moss got there. How did the Vikings do then?

Instead of comparing vertical leaps and such, I'm just remembering their respective impacts on the game. 98 Moss was an absolute monster, and the NFC Central didn't know what to do with him.

And I HATE the Vikings. I have no reason to pimp Moss.


1995: Warren Moon - 16 starts - 4200+ yards, 33 TDs and 14 ints
1996: Brad Johnson - 8 starts - 2200+ yards, 17 TDs and 10 ints
1997: Brad Johnson - 13 starts - 3000+ yards, 20 TDs and 12 ints

So pretty well...
Let's all remember that Moss was drafted w/ the 24th pick, so the Vikings were a pretty good team before he got there. Did he make them better? Absolutely. Did he join a destitute offense? Not a chance in hell.

Well was anyone saying they were destitute on offense? I mean he was the one major difference between the 97 team that finished 9-7 while averaging 22.1 PPG and the 98 team that finished 15-1 while averaging 34.8 PPG. Their passing game made a huge leap forward too, improving from 7th in completion percentage to 3rd, 14th in passing yards to 1st, 6th in TDs to 1st, 17th in yards per attempt to 2nd, and 9th in QB rating to 1st.


Him and Cunningham taking over as a starter.


Yes, a journeyman out-of-football backup was the spark the Vikings needed.


So he is either THE spark, or he changed nothing?

I remember the same kind of talk and the same kind of confounding logic in the old "Moss made Brady/Welker" debates. All the credit to Moss. None to Welker or Brady.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

th87 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
nixa37 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
I don't know - it's close. But Moss changed the game. You could see it the minute he took the field. He turned an elderly Randall Cunningham and Jeff George into Pro Bowl (or borderline) QBs. He was absolutely unstoppable for a time - terrified other teams. The Packers drafted DBs in the first three rounds of their next draft just so they could hang with him. While CJ is amazing, I never saw him singlehandedly change the WR position.


I can't help but laugh at comments like these. Moss was amazing but that offense had Cris Carter, Robert Smith, Jake Reed and 4 Pro Bowlers on the OL(1 of which is a HOFer).

It really is amazing how people forget how stacked that offense was and immediately try to give Moss sole credit for those QBs playing well.


They were around before Moss got there. How did the Vikings do then?

Instead of comparing vertical leaps and such, I'm just remembering their respective impacts on the game. 98 Moss was an absolute monster, and the NFC Central didn't know what to do with him.

And I HATE the Vikings. I have no reason to pimp Moss.


1995: Warren Moon - 16 starts - 4200+ yards, 33 TDs and 14 ints
1996: Brad Johnson - 8 starts - 2200+ yards, 17 TDs and 10 ints
1997: Brad Johnson - 13 starts - 3000+ yards, 20 TDs and 12 ints

So pretty well...
Let's all remember that Moss was drafted w/ the 24th pick, so the Vikings were a pretty good team before he got there. Did he make them better? Absolutely. Did he join a destitute offense? Not a chance in hell.

Well was anyone saying they were destitute on offense? I mean he was the one major difference between the 97 team that finished 9-7 while averaging 22.1 PPG and the 98 team that finished 15-1 while averaging 34.8 PPG. Their passing game made a huge leap forward too, improving from 7th in completion percentage to 3rd, 14th in passing yards to 1st, 6th in TDs to 1st, 17th in yards per attempt to 2nd, and 9th in QB rating to 1st.


Him and Cunningham taking over as a starter.


Yes, a journeyman out-of-football backup was the spark the Vikings needed.
If you think Cunningham was a journeyman football player, you don't know much about football.


Please kid. I've followed football since before you were born.

By the late 90s he was a journeyman. He was benched for Rodney Freaking Peete. Retired from football in 1996, and was signed as a BACKUP to Brad Johnson until he got injured in 1997. In 1998, Johnson broke his leg, allowing Cunningham to take over. So for you to imply that Cunningham was the same Tecmo Super Bowl beast of 1990 is beyond ridiculous.

Vikings QBs went from 26 TDs in 1997 to 41 in 1998.


Brady went from 28 to 50. Welker went from 800 yards to 1200.

Musta been Moss!!!
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nixa37 wrote:
th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
nixa37 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
I don't know - it's close. But Moss changed the game. You could see it the minute he took the field. He turned an elderly Randall Cunningham and Jeff George into Pro Bowl (or borderline) QBs. He was absolutely unstoppable for a time - terrified other teams. The Packers drafted DBs in the first three rounds of their next draft just so they could hang with him. While CJ is amazing, I never saw him singlehandedly change the WR position.


I can't help but laugh at comments like these. Moss was amazing but that offense had Cris Carter, Robert Smith, Jake Reed and 4 Pro Bowlers on the OL(1 of which is a HOFer).

It really is amazing how people forget how stacked that offense was and immediately try to give Moss sole credit for those QBs playing well.


They were around before Moss got there. How did the Vikings do then?

Instead of comparing vertical leaps and such, I'm just remembering their respective impacts on the game. 98 Moss was an absolute monster, and the NFC Central didn't know what to do with him.

And I HATE the Vikings. I have no reason to pimp Moss.


1995: Warren Moon - 16 starts - 4200+ yards, 33 TDs and 14 ints
1996: Brad Johnson - 8 starts - 2200+ yards, 17 TDs and 10 ints
1997: Brad Johnson - 13 starts - 3000+ yards, 20 TDs and 12 ints

So pretty well...
Let's all remember that Moss was drafted w/ the 24th pick, so the Vikings were a pretty good team before he got there. Did he make them better? Absolutely. Did he join a destitute offense? Not a chance in hell.

Well was anyone saying they were destitute on offense? I mean he was the one major difference between the 97 team that finished 9-7 while averaging 22.1 PPG and the 98 team that finished 15-1 while averaging 34.8 PPG. Their passing game made a huge leap forward too, improving from 7th in completion percentage to 3rd, 14th in passing yards to 1st, 6th in TDs to 1st, 17th in yards per attempt to 2nd, and 9th in QB rating to 1st.


Him and Cunningham taking over as a starter.


Yes, a journeyman out-of-football backup was the spark the Vikings needed.

Seriously, he started a few games the previous season with pretty much the same offense minus Moss and was pretty awful.


He started a few games after taking a full season off and produced a TD% of 6.1% in 5 starts while passing for 10 TDs. He also threw a lot of ints and his completion % was bad but for a guy who was coming off a year off from football, that really isn't too bad.

In fact, if you're going to sit here and honestly claim that Moss made that year(1998) then that means that you think freakish elite WRs can make QBs. So by that same logic, you must believe that Calvin Johnson made Matt Stafford in 2011. Well, ok, if that's what you believe, that's what you believe.

Me? I think that Cunningham was playing at an extremely high level that year. He was getting great protection from an elite OL, had WRs who could get open and had a great running game to back him up. The entire offense helped him to have a great year by being elite in talent but Cunningham helped himself by playing at an extremely high level. In fact, didn't we see Daunte Culpepper do the same thing in Minnesota? Have some really mediocre to average years then have years where he played at a ridiculous level. I don't believe that WRs can make a QB. They can certainly help the QB put up great stats and help him do his job but the QB has to be able to read defenses and deliver the ball with a semblance of accuracy and touch. This is the NFL after all.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:
th87 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
nixa37 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
I don't know - it's close. But Moss changed the game. You could see it the minute he took the field. He turned an elderly Randall Cunningham and Jeff George into Pro Bowl (or borderline) QBs. He was absolutely unstoppable for a time - terrified other teams. The Packers drafted DBs in the first three rounds of their next draft just so they could hang with him. While CJ is amazing, I never saw him singlehandedly change the WR position.


I can't help but laugh at comments like these. Moss was amazing but that offense had Cris Carter, Robert Smith, Jake Reed and 4 Pro Bowlers on the OL(1 of which is a HOFer).

It really is amazing how people forget how stacked that offense was and immediately try to give Moss sole credit for those QBs playing well.


They were around before Moss got there. How did the Vikings do then?

Instead of comparing vertical leaps and such, I'm just remembering their respective impacts on the game. 98 Moss was an absolute monster, and the NFC Central didn't know what to do with him.

And I HATE the Vikings. I have no reason to pimp Moss.


1995: Warren Moon - 16 starts - 4200+ yards, 33 TDs and 14 ints
1996: Brad Johnson - 8 starts - 2200+ yards, 17 TDs and 10 ints
1997: Brad Johnson - 13 starts - 3000+ yards, 20 TDs and 12 ints

So pretty well...
Let's all remember that Moss was drafted w/ the 24th pick, so the Vikings were a pretty good team before he got there. Did he make them better? Absolutely. Did he join a destitute offense? Not a chance in hell.

Well was anyone saying they were destitute on offense? I mean he was the one major difference between the 97 team that finished 9-7 while averaging 22.1 PPG and the 98 team that finished 15-1 while averaging 34.8 PPG. Their passing game made a huge leap forward too, improving from 7th in completion percentage to 3rd, 14th in passing yards to 1st, 6th in TDs to 1st, 17th in yards per attempt to 2nd, and 9th in QB rating to 1st.


Him and Cunningham taking over as a starter.


Yes, a journeyman out-of-football backup was the spark the Vikings needed.
If you think Cunningham was a journeyman football player, you don't know much about football.


Please kid. I've followed football since before you were born.

By the late 90s he was a journeyman. He was benched for Rodney Freaking Peete. Retired from football in 1996, and was signed as a BACKUP to Brad Johnson until he got injured in 1997. In 1998, Johnson broke his leg, allowing Cunningham to take over. So for you to imply that Cunningham was the same Tecmo Super Bowl beast of 1990 is beyond ridiculous.

Vikings QBs went from 26 TDs in 1997 to 41 in 1998.


Brady went from 28 to 50. Welker went from 800 yards to 1200.

Musta been Moss!!!


You do see, don't you, the difference between a prime Brady, and a washed up Cunningham/George? Don't try to lump me in with NBT logic - I know what I saw when Moss came into the league.

The Vikings went from 9-7 with a respectable offense to 15-1 with a terrifying offense. The main change was Moss (Cunningham played the previous year).

Being a Packers fan, I get/got to watch them closely twice a year. I was never terrified of CJ as I was Moss.

You guys really need to dust off videotapes from 1998.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

th87 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
th87 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
nixa37 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
th87 wrote:
I don't know - it's close. But Moss changed the game. You could see it the minute he took the field. He turned an elderly Randall Cunningham and Jeff George into Pro Bowl (or borderline) QBs. He was absolutely unstoppable for a time - terrified other teams. The Packers drafted DBs in the first three rounds of their next draft just so they could hang with him. While CJ is amazing, I never saw him singlehandedly change the WR position.


I can't help but laugh at comments like these. Moss was amazing but that offense had Cris Carter, Robert Smith, Jake Reed and 4 Pro Bowlers on the OL(1 of which is a HOFer).

It really is amazing how people forget how stacked that offense was and immediately try to give Moss sole credit for those QBs playing well.


They were around before Moss got there. How did the Vikings do then?

Instead of comparing vertical leaps and such, I'm just remembering their respective impacts on the game. 98 Moss was an absolute monster, and the NFC Central didn't know what to do with him.

And I HATE the Vikings. I have no reason to pimp Moss.


1995: Warren Moon - 16 starts - 4200+ yards, 33 TDs and 14 ints
1996: Brad Johnson - 8 starts - 2200+ yards, 17 TDs and 10 ints
1997: Brad Johnson - 13 starts - 3000+ yards, 20 TDs and 12 ints

So pretty well...
Let's all remember that Moss was drafted w/ the 24th pick, so the Vikings were a pretty good team before he got there. Did he make them better? Absolutely. Did he join a destitute offense? Not a chance in hell.

Well was anyone saying they were destitute on offense? I mean he was the one major difference between the 97 team that finished 9-7 while averaging 22.1 PPG and the 98 team that finished 15-1 while averaging 34.8 PPG. Their passing game made a huge leap forward too, improving from 7th in completion percentage to 3rd, 14th in passing yards to 1st, 6th in TDs to 1st, 17th in yards per attempt to 2nd, and 9th in QB rating to 1st.


Him and Cunningham taking over as a starter.


Yes, a journeyman out-of-football backup was the spark the Vikings needed.
If you think Cunningham was a journeyman football player, you don't know much about football.


Please kid. I've followed football since before you were born.

By the late 90s he was a journeyman. He was benched for Rodney Freaking Peete. Retired from football in 1996, and was signed as a BACKUP to Brad Johnson until he got injured in 1997. In 1998, Johnson broke his leg, allowing Cunningham to take over. So for you to imply that Cunningham was the same Tecmo Super Bowl beast of 1990 is beyond ridiculous.

Vikings QBs went from 26 TDs in 1997 to 41 in 1998.


Brady went from 28 to 50. Welker went from 800 yards to 1200.

Musta been Moss!!!


You do see, don't you, the difference between a prime Brady, and a washed up Cunningham/George? Don't try to lump me in with NBT logic - I know what I saw when Moss came into the league.

The Vikings went from 9-7 with a respectable offense to 15-1 with a terrifying offense. The main change was Moss (Cunningham played the previous year).

Being a Packers fan, I get/got to watch them closely twice a year. I was never terrified of CJ as I was Moss.

You guys really need to dust off videotapes from 1998.


I dont need to dust off squat. I'm an old man. Possibly older than you. I know what I saw as well. I really great WR. And I know what I have seen since. Undue credit heaped on top of undue credit as the myth of Moss grows.

It doesnt matter if Brady was in his prime or not. The same exact BS logic was applied. "Look at the stats. Musta been Moss!" Moss helped. In both sets of circumstances Moss helped. But, in both circumstances, Moss had a ton of help as well.
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