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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Footy29: I know what the % are and I also remember E's breakdown of those kicks. I've also watched Cundiff a lot because I'm in the dc area I have a few friends who are ravens fans and he has a string leg, his problem on over 50 yards is accuracy. You keep ignoring that point

Haha! And I predicted people bribing up that 59 yarder of Gano months ago, it was one kick. That's Gano, he'll miss makeable kicks because he's inconsistent and then he'll kick a 50 something yarder and guys will say he's amazing! It's great he made the 59 harder but he's still not a consistent kicker. Gano has problems because he always kicks line drives and they are susceptible to blocks and he's unemployed right now because teams know he's inconsistent.

Brian23: I heard Shanahan wrong during his press conference.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2012/09/16/mike-shanahan-billy-cundiffs-chances-were-better-than-the-offenses-on-fourth-and-16/

Quote:
Cundiff said after the game that he rushed his attempt and that his hips came open too soon, and as a result, he didn't hit the ball as forcefully as he needed to.

Cundiff said he made a 55-yard attempt with about three yards to spare in warmups, but didn't attempt one from 60 yards or further. His career long is 56 yards. But Cundiff said he thought he had a chance to make the field goal.
so it sounds like Cundiff rushed it and just mis hit the kick. It happens, especially when you are trying to kick the 2nd longest FG in NFL history
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Thaiphoon


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian23 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
footy_29 wrote:
AntiSuperstar wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Don't you know that the Baltimore Ravens and the Washington Redskins both cut Gano in favor of Billy Cundiff and each time it has turned out to be a good decision. Cundiff is a better kicker than Gano. Cundiff was better than Gano when Cundiff was in Baltmore and Gano was here and Cundiff has been better this year than what Gano was for us, it was the correct decision in both cases.
gano was a rookie when he was cut in Baltimore. There's no need for the circular logic that says because Gano was justifiably cut for Cundiff in Baltimore it automatically means it was justified to do the same in Washington. Cundiff hasn't been any better than Gano on field goals.

What all the critics of Cundiff said remains true, he has already shown his bad tendencies twice: He reliably kicks wide right on long field goals, and he reliably misses at the end of games. The guy is a liability because of this, and it takes a great deal of rationalization to not see this.

I'm with this guy. I am not saying that Gano would have made that 62 yard field goal, but at least he has the leg to do it. Cundiff does not have the leg for long field goals - ostensibly it's the same as throwing a hail mary with Alex Smith as your QB.
Cundiff was only a few yards short on the distance and Shanahan said he's seen him kick that distance in practice.


Shanny said he can boom it out the back from kickoffs so he should be able to do it as a FG. I don't think he's done a 60 yarder in practice or the beat writers would be all over it.


If Shanny said that and believes it, he's an idiot.

There are universes of difference between:

A.) a 5-10 yard run up to the ball (on a tee) + kicking the crap out of the ball + not having to worry too much about accuracy (the end zone is pretty wide) and

B.) being only a few yards off the spot of the ball, lining up, torquing the leg and being accurate within the two goal posts.

Guys with weaker legs can boom the ball out of the end zones (especially since the kickoffs have been moved up). Stronger legged guys are the ones who can hit the high 50's kicks (57,58,59 yarders).
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Last edited by Thaiphoon on Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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Thaiphoon


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Footy29: I know what the % are and I also remember E's breakdown of those kicks. I've also watched Cundiff a lot because I'm in the dc area I have a few friends who are ravens fans and he has a string leg, his problem on over 50 yards is accuracy. You keep ignoring that point

Haha! And I predicted people bribing up that 59 yarder of Gano months ago, it was one kick. That's Gano, he'll miss makeable kicks because he's inconsistent and then he'll kick a 50 something yarder and guys will say he's amazing! It's great he made the 59 harder but he's still not a consistent kicker. Gano has problems because he always kicks line drives and they are susceptible to blocks and he's unemployed right now because teams know he's inconsistent.

Brian23: I heard Shanahan wrong during his press conference.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2012/09/16/mike-shanahan-billy-cundiffs-chances-were-better-than-the-offenses-on-fourth-and-16/

Quote:
Cundiff said after the game that he rushed his attempt and that his hips came open too soon, and as a result, he didn't hit the ball as forcefully as he needed to.

Cundiff said he made a 55-yard attempt with about three yards to spare in warmups, but didn't attempt one from 60 yards or further. His career long is 56 yards. But Cundiff said he thought he had a chance to make the field goal.
so it sounds like Cundiff rushed it and just mis hit the kick. It happens, especially when you are trying to kick the 2nd longest FG in NFL history


1.) He doesn't "always kick line drives". Most of his blocks would've been blocked either way. Either you don't know anything about the physics of the ball coming off the foot or you are just buying the line drive argument hook-line-and sinker. Most of the blocks came as a result of the DL pushing the OL back a few yards. The ball is not going to come off on ANY kicker's foot at greater than a 45 degree angle. Most of the time its less (unless its a chip shot and then the kicker "chips down" - golfers will understand this terminology - to cause it to rise faster). So the blocks were not on Gano. They were on the OL that cannot block to save their lives.

2.) Gano and Cundiff both miss makeable kicks. They are kickers. They are going to do that. And they pretty much miss at the same rate.

3.) His career long is 56 yards. He kicked one at 55 yards (with 3 yards to spare). After seeing this, it tells me our kicker cannot hit anything above 57/58 yards. So tell me, why oh why were we trying to hit the 2nd longest FG in history with a guy who cannot even hit the longest FG in Redskins history - 59yards (Gano - who IIRC did it with 3-4 yards to spare).

Again - dance the happy dance all you want that Gano is gone. But let's not try to tell me that Cundiff was going to make that kick or that he's a consistent kicker. His body of work (notwithstanding E's breakdown) is still too suspect for me. I do not know what kicker (old or new Cundiff) will emerge this season for us. All I know is that Shanny should not be attempting a 62 yard FG ever again. I don't care if its 4th and 30.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cundiff is 4/5 with a long of 45 and the only kick he missed was a 62 yard kick. That sounds pretty consistent to me.
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Thaiphoon


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Cundiff is 4/5 with a long of 45 and the only kick he missed was a 62 yard kick. That sounds pretty consistent to me.


Not sure how you can read the 3 words

"body of work"

as

"last two games"

But its amazing that you can. Laughing
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thaiphoon wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Cundiff is 4/5 with a long of 45 and the only kick he missed was a 62 yard kick. That sounds pretty consistent to me.


Not sure how you can read the 3 words

"body of work"

as

"last two games"

But its amazing that you can. Laughing
I'll admit, I scanned your post and missed that. Still, I'll take E's breakdown and a veteran kicker. We already knew what we had in Gano, and it's pretty clear after last season they saw something there that they weren't comfortable with. they brought in Rackers to try to replace him and I'd make the argument Rackers did win that kicking competiton. When Cundiff became available, they thought he was better than both kickers and so far, he has been. Thus, gano is unemployed.

I do wish that Gano had been a great kicker for us, but the truth is he wasn't. He was unreliable. His low/line drive kicks (Grant Paulsen's words, not mine) weren't the main reason for the blocked fg's but it didn't help out the cause there.
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Cundiff is on the team next year, I am going to have a conniption. Maybe I should contact the Redskins FO and ask if I can find them a kicker because Cundiff is not going to cut it.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
If Cundiff is on the team next year, I am going to have a conniption. Maybe I should contact the Redskins FO and ask if I can find them a kicker because Cundiff is not going to cut it.
4 of 5, 4 of 5 what's not to like thus far? Wink
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Woz


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian23 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
footy_29 wrote:
AntiSuperstar wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Don't you know that the Baltimore Ravens and the Washington Redskins both cut Gano in favor of Billy Cundiff and each time it has turned out to be a good decision. Cundiff is a better kicker than Gano. Cundiff was better than Gano when Cundiff was in Baltmore and Gano was here and Cundiff has been better this year than what Gano was for us, it was the correct decision in both cases.
gano was a rookie when he was cut in Baltimore. There's no need for the circular logic that says because Gano was justifiably cut for Cundiff in Baltimore it automatically means it was justified to do the same in Washington. Cundiff hasn't been any better than Gano on field goals.

What all the critics of Cundiff said remains true, he has already shown his bad tendencies twice: He reliably kicks wide right on long field goals, and he reliably misses at the end of games. The guy is a liability because of this, and it takes a great deal of rationalization to not see this.

I'm with this guy. I am not saying that Gano would have made that 62 yard field goal, but at least he has the leg to do it. Cundiff does not have the leg for long field goals - ostensibly it's the same as throwing a hail mary with Alex Smith as your QB.
Cundiff was only a few yards short on the distance and Shanahan said he's seen him kick that distance in practice.


Shanny said he can boom it out the back from kickoffs so he should be able to do it as a FG. I don't think he's done a 60 yarder in practice or the beat writers would be all over it.


Width of endzone = width of field = 160 feet

Width of goal posts = 18 feet, 6 inches ... oh yeah, it also has to be 10 feet high.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A kick is a kick is a kick. At 50+ yards he is still trying to kick the crap out of the ball and he does. The difference in those longer kicks is the ACCURACY!! As I keep saying, which is what everyone keeps pointing out here. The height needed to make it over the goal post, the width of the goal post is smaller than the endzone. Yeah- accuracy! Not leg strength
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
A kick is a kick is a kick. At 50+ yards he is still trying to kick the crap out of the ball and he does. The difference in those longer kicks is the ACCURACY!! As I keep saying, which is what everyone keeps pointing out here. The height needed to make it over the goal post, the width of the goal post is smaller than the endzone. Yeah- accuracy! Not leg strength


It is fundamentally leg strength. If Cundiff is making poor contact or changing his leg swing to try to put more on the ball and he woefully fails, then the issue is his leg strength not the accuracy.

When I was very young, all I had to do was look at where I wanted to kick a soccer ball, and it would be accurate. I was not as accurate with 25+ strikes at that time (~11-12 years) because I did not have enough force hitting the ball, and that took me a while to get.

The same was true when I first starting kicking for rugby, and this is more salient as it's somewhat similar. I could make a 30 yard penalty kick (field-goal), but with some wind or greater distance, there was not enough force to keep the ball true. I would either shank it to the left because I was altering my swing to try to put more mustard on it, or it faded to the right because I simply did not have the leg strength to make the target. Of course, I played through a partially torn hip flexor, which impacted my ability to hit longer kicks.

By the time I was 18, I started to gain the natural strength, in addition to the natural leverage I already possessed, to kick the ball 50+ meters. I never trained for rugby, I looked at it as pick-up hockey, which is why I accumulated a number of injuries and why I have not kicked for points in years. If you asked me to kick a 62 yarder right now, it would probably look similar to Cundiff's attempt at the 62 yarder, but I'll concede it would be a a good 5 yards shorter than his.

Cundiff doesn't have natural leg strength, Gano does. If Shanahan wants short-term consistency, so be it, but I would rather a Matt Prater style of kicker than Gramatica. Janikowski is a great example for why you stick with a kicker who has natural leg strength - his first few years he had fairly poor accuracy, but now that is not an issue.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
A kick is a kick is a kick. At 50+ yards he is still trying to kick the crap out of the ball and he does. The difference in those longer kicks is the ACCURACY!! As I keep saying, which is what everyone keeps pointing out here. The height needed to make it over the goal post, the width of the goal post is smaller than the endzone. Yeah- accuracy! Not leg strength


It is fundamentally leg strength. If Cundiff is making poor contact or changing his leg swing to try to put more on the ball and he woefully fails, then the issue is his leg strength not the accuracy.

When I was very young, all I had to do was look at where I wanted to kick a soccer ball, and it would be accurate. I was not as accurate with 25+ strikes at that time (~11-12 years) because I did not have enough force hitting the ball, and that took me a while to get.

The same was true when I first starting kicking for rugby, and this is more salient as it's somewhat similar. I could make a 30 yard penalty kick (field-goal), but with some wind or greater distance, there was not enough force to keep the ball true. I would either shank it to the left because I was altering my swing to try to put more mustard on it, or it faded to the right because I simply did not have the leg strength to make the target. Of course, I played through a partially torn hip flexor, which impacted my ability to hit longer kicks.

By the time I was 18, I started to gain the natural strength, in addition to the natural leverage I already possessed, to kick the ball 50+ meters. I never trained for rugby, I looked at it as pick-up hockey, which is why I accumulated a number of injuries and why I have not kicked for points in years. If you asked me to kick a 62 yarder right now, it would probably look similar to Cundiff's attempt at the 62 yarder, but I'll concede it would be a a good 5 yards shorter than his.

Cundiff doesn't have natural leg strength, Gano does. If Shanahan wants short-term consistency, so be it, but I would rather a Matt Prater style of kicker than Gramatica. Janikowski is a great example for why you stick with a kicker who has natural leg strength - his first few years he had fairly poor accuracy, but now that is not an issue.
Good post, but it seems it's a combination of both. It's obvious he can kick the ball far but he struggles getting the good contact on his longer field goal attempts as you said.

I think with Gano, if Cundiff struggles, there is a chance he's brought back in the future. Right now, Gano is unemployed so there is always a chance we can re-sign him. Hopefully, if we re-sign him, he get's better lift on his kicks from 45 yards and in, is more accurate than he was last year and than he was this training camp. because it doesn't matter how strong his leg is, if he isn't going to get good lift on his shorter kicks and be accurate he won't ever have a permenant job in the nfl.
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