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Week 4: Cincinnati Bengals @ Jacksonville Jaguars 4:05 PM ED
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Who wins?
Jaguars
27%
 27%  [ 3 ]
Bengals
72%
 72%  [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 11

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Tugboat


Joined: 30 Mar 2011
Posts: 3604
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its A Sabotage wrote:
It's not just a draft thing.
Free Agents have all but busted, but we also have the 3rd lowest retention rate of picks in the Gene Smith area.


Yep. You really can't just take the draft in isolation, and especially not in considering who was there where Gene picked. Where Gene picked, was Gene's decisionmaking. Nobody restricted him to picking where he did.

But more than that, the draft isn't the only aspect of being a GM. Free agency, trades, finding talent wherever it can be found...it all has to be considered. It's all related as well...changing a few players here and there in one facet can have a huge impact on how other things work out, and that can't be overstated.

At the end of the day, the questions are:

1.Has Gene brought in a significant amount of talent?
2.Has Gene brought in dynamic gamebreakers who are elite at their position?
3.Has Gene brought in enough talent?
4.Has Gene brought in personnel who have this team moving in a positive direction, building towards something special?
5.Perhaps most condemning, has Gene brought in talent at a rate that exceeds the rate at which talent ages/exits this team?

When you look at a few of the picks that Gene really hit well on, Cox and Knighton...these are guys who are impending free agents. These are guys who could leave. If your rebuild is facing the potential of bleeding your few precious talents via unrestricted free agency, before your team on the field has made any real tangible steps forward...that's an issue. Even if he manages to retain these players...it's an uncomfortable situation, and speaks to the snails pace of this 'rebuild'.

Worrying about the past in hindsight is fine as a speculative pursuit on a message board here, but ultimately, that's in the past. Time to worry about the future. And if the conclusion is that Gene hasn't improved the team, that's a failure. Regardless of what an artificial hindsight GM might've done, if a GM hasn't done their job, it's time to take a serious look at going in another direction.
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mikeyfarley


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Anyone wanna help me build a time machine? Laughing

But really, I understand why everyone is frustrated with where the team is. I am too. But I don't see how we could have come out of this much better than we have, without hitting on every single pick, and that just isn't ever going to happen.
Yeah, because the only way to know Alualu wouldn't pan out as a top 10 pick was to have a time machine, lol.

Your defense of Gene Smith is looking ridiculous now.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel like my point is getting completely missed here.
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McMorrow_922


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
I feel like my point is getting completely missed here.
I know where your coming from Ipwn.
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KhanYouDigIt


Joined: 03 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, how can anyone actually defend what Gene has done as GM?


I sound like a broken record but:

- His drafts have sucked

- Has had a top 10 pick in his 4 Drafts as the GM. No difference maker.

- We are getting thoroughly dominated in the trenches, when we used high picks on OL/DL in previous Drafts.

- His acquisitions via FA have been "meh".

- The same questions remain now in the 4th year of the rebuild as they did when Gene took over as the GM.

- One of the least talented rosters in the NFL.



I'm sick of watching this team just look outmatched on Sundays. It's rather embarrassing and it all starts with Gene.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not that I think Gene Smith has done a fantastic job, it's that I don't think anyone else leaguewide has done better to the point that I think getting rid of Gene and bringing them in would make much of a difference in the team. The Gabbert pick is the only reason that I see it as viable to get rid of him, and if that's the reason he's let go, then fine. But to suggest that he's done a poor job, when you look at what every other team has done is a bit disingenuous. Yeah, it hasn't been the best job, but I really don't even think it's a bottom half of the league job.

I mean he's getting chastized for not drafting o-linemen, but when you look at the entire draft classes the last 4 years, there's only a small handful of o-linemen that went off after our first round pick throughout the entire draft that look like good tier linemen.
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KhanYouDigIt


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
The Gabbert pick is the only reason that I see it as viable to get rid of him.


The Alualu pick is just as bad. Gene reached severely because he saw Alualu as a "safe pick", rather than taking a gamble on a raw JPP. He's too scared to strike out.

Well that supposedly safe pick is a horrible player. He is being put on his butt more time than not. In 111 pass rush attempts this season according to PFF, he has no QB hurries. Has hit the QB once. That's what we want from our penetrating DT that we took top 10?

A top 10 pick needs to be a difference maker. A guy who teams gameplan around.

Alualu sucks.
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Tugboat


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
It's not that I think Gene Smith has done a fantastic job, it's that I don't think anyone else leaguewide has done better to the point that I think getting rid of Gene and bringing them in would make much of a difference in the team. The Gabbert pick is the only reason that I see it as viable to get rid of him, and if that's the reason he's let go, then fine. But to suggest that he's done a poor job, when you look at what every other team has done is a bit disingenuous. Yeah, it hasn't been the best job, but I really don't even think it's a bottom half of the league job.

I mean he's getting chastized for not drafting o-linemen, but when you look at the entire draft classes the last 4 years, there's only a small handful of o-linemen that went off after our first round pick throughout the entire draft that look like good tier linemen.


It's not that i hate Gene Smith, or even think that he's done a terrible job. I respect what he's done, what he's tried to do, and i respect his approach to things. But realistically, it just hasn't worked.

KhanYouDigIt wrote:
iPwn wrote:
The Gabbert pick is the only reason that I see it as viable to get rid of him.


The Alualu pick is just as bad. Gene reached severely because he saw Alualu as a "safe pick", rather than taking a gamble on a raw JPP. He's too scared to strike out.

Well that supposedly safe pick is a horrible player. He is being put on his butt more time than not. In 111 pass rush attempts this season according to PFF, he has no QB hurries. Has hit the QB once. That's what we want from our penetrating DT that we took top 10?

A top 10 pick needs to be a difference maker. A guy who teams gameplan around.

Alualu sucks.


I think the bolded is a big part of it. Gene is a very methodical, safe, conservative GM. The reality is, when you're up against 31 other GMs all trying to improve their teams as well every year...it takes someone who is willing to roll the dice sometimes to get ahead. I'm just not at all convinced that Gene is the guy for the job anymore. It's the old saying, 'nothing ventured, nothing gained'. And it extends a lot further than than just the draft. And when you're dealing with a team bad enough to pick top-10 every year...it's going to take some gambles to really get ahead.


Basically, it's not that i dislike Gene, or think he fell on his face as a GM. But the problem is, doing 'ok' isn't good enough get ahead when you're starting a mile back. Everyone else is getting 'better' at the same rate. It doesn't work.
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jagman777


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has to be said.

Is Gene really any better than Shack Harris?
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charles shelton


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jagman777 wrote:
It has to be said.

Is Gene really any better than Shack Harris?


this is old floor/ceiling debate. I think Harris had a higher ceiling (mjd pick comes to mind) but a much lower floor (Nelson, Harvey et al). As others here have pointed out, Gene isn't really swinging for the fences.
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jagman777


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

charles shelton wrote:
jagman777 wrote:
It has to be said.

Is Gene really any better than Shack Harris?


this is old floor/ceiling debate. I think Harris had a higher ceiling (mjd pick comes to mind) but a much lower floor (Nelson, Harvey et al). As others here have pointed out, Gene isn't really swinging for the fences.


Nelson is a pretty solid player for the bungles, apparently.
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Viewtiful Wade


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jagman777 wrote:
It has to be said.

Is Gene really any better than Shack Harris?


No he isn't, been saying it since last year. Harris was pretty much good at everything besides picking in the first round...sad really.
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JaguarCrazy2832


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
I feel like my point is getting completely missed here.


happens alot around here doesnt it?

Laughing
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JaguarCrazy2832


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Viewtiful Wade wrote:
jagman777 wrote:
It has to be said.

Is Gene really any better than Shack Harris?


No he isn't, been saying it since last year. Harris was pretty much good at everything besides picking in the first round...sad really.


what?!?!?!?! Shocked

Shack was terrible in free agency too
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JaguarCrazy2832


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

charles shelton wrote:
jagman777 wrote:
It has to be said.

Is Gene really any better than Shack Harris?


this is old floor/ceiling debate. I think Harris had a higher ceiling (mjd pick comes to mind) but a much lower floor (Nelson, Harvey et al). As others here have pointed out, Gene isn't really swinging for the fences.


he might not be swinging for the fences, but he is getting on base. You take calculated risks, Shack took alot of risks like almost trading an entire draft for Harvey n Groves
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