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Time to stop the BPA draft strategy!
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duanegarrison09


Joined: 11 Nov 2010
Posts: 667
Location: Macomb County, Michigan
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lions are coming off a 10 - 6 record from last year without defeating a team with a record above .500. They also got killed by the Saints in their play-off loss 45 - 28, having their secondary threaded by Brees. Last year we overachieved.

Mayhew is drafting primarily BPA and has been successful for the most part building the offense minus additional needs on the right side of the line (Raiola, Peterman, Cherilus). The drafts and free agency have improved the defensive line significatly but the back seven minus a couple of players still sucks.

My thoughts are the Lions were more of a 7 - 9 team last year rather than 10 - 6, so our expectations were artificially raised. This team will not get better until the offensive line is re-worked no matter how many new running backs or wide receivers are brought in. Nor will things improve until the back seven is replaced with professional players.

The only good thing about the Minnesota game is if you remove the two touch downs are special teams gave up, we would have won! Laughing
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stylish313


Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 15019
Location: Flat Rock, Mi
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

duanegarrison09 wrote:
Lions are coming off a 10 - 6 record from last year without defeating a team with a record above .500. They also got killed by the Saints in their play-off loss 45 - 28, having their secondary threaded by Brees. Last year we overachieved.

Mayhew is drafting primarily BPA and has been successful for the most part building the offense minus additional needs on the right side of the line (Raiola, Peterman, Cherilus). The drafts and free agency have improved the defensive line significatly but the back seven minus a couple of players still sucks.

My thoughts are the Lions were more of a 7 - 9 team last year rather than 10 - 6, so our expectations were artificially raised. This team will not get better until the offensive line is re-worked no matter how many new running backs or wide receivers are brought in. Nor will things improve until the back seven is replaced with professional players.

The only good thing about the Minnesota game is if you remove the two touch downs are special teams gave up, we would have won! Laughing
So if the Lions don't finish at least 7-9, then that means that Mayhew hasn't improved this team at all under the surface; and on-top of the surface if we don't make the playoffs then this will be a failure of a season to the rest of the world.
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duanegarrison09


Joined: 11 Nov 2010
Posts: 667
Location: Macomb County, Michigan
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stylish,

It means too me that we can never be comfortable or expect to win a game when the right side of our OL consists of Raiola, Peterman, Cherilus.

Also, with a starting safety pair consisting of ageing Coleman and practice squad addition Silva, we can't expect to win.

We have one linebacker, one cornerback, and one broken safety in our back seven. Try to win with that!!

I am just saying we should not have high expectations for this team to win.
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YlionsY


Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 14656
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

duanegarrison09 wrote:
Stylish,

It means too me that we can never be comfortable or expect to win a game when the right side of our OL consists of Raiola, Peterman, Cherilus.

Also, with a starting safety pair consisting of ageing Coleman and practice squad addition Silva, we can't expect to win.

We have one linebacker, one cornerback, and one broken safety in our back seven. Try to win with that!!

I am just saying we should not have high expectations for this team to win.


Tulloch, Levy, and Durant make a solid LB core. Houston is our only secondary player though. Bently is playing like a rookie over his head, Delmas is never on the field but when he is he is unspectacular, and other S is a joke.

I wonder if we plug Reiff into that right side if that would help. Most likely RG. Goz and Dom could do a solid job if it was solidified on that side with a solid RG.
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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 25781
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fresnolions wrote:
Diehardlionsfan, my take on why we lost the last 3 games is simple. Besides the horrific special teams play and horrible play calling. Against the niners and Titans our secondary couldn't stop multiple 3 and long situations and couldn't stop big plays. Against the vikings it was flat out special teams and bentley giving up 2 deep PIs and the 1st down catch in 4th quarter killed it. so how is a #4 Wr and 2nd string OL supposed to help us make plays on D. Our offense hasn't been unstoppable and hasn't necessarily been good. But they have been good enough the last 2 years that we shouldn't have lost 10 of our last 16 games. I would be ok with the rieff pick if we wouldn't of resigned backyard and used his money to help out other needs. We don't have a good enough team to waste on players that can't come in and help immediately.


Obviously they haven't been good enough. They have had difficulty scoring TD's and they showed that again today. You can say what you want about the defence but they didn't give up a TD today.

The offence gets in the red zone and simply can't punch it in.

Looking at the draft as a way to select players based on need is really a recipe for disaster. If your concern is the secondary that's legitimate. I'm concerned as well. I'm not frustrated withMayhew for not drafting secondary help but I'm frustrated he didn't address the need through free agency or trade.

You address need through trade and free agency. You draft BPA. That's how you create quality depth which yo can then trade to fill in a need.
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YlionsY


Joined: 28 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
fresnolions wrote:
Diehardlionsfan, my take on why we lost the last 3 games is simple. Besides the horrific special teams play and horrible play calling. Against the niners and Titans our secondary couldn't stop multiple 3 and long situations and couldn't stop big plays. Against the vikings it was flat out special teams and bentley giving up 2 deep PIs and the 1st down catch in 4th quarter killed it. so how is a #4 Wr and 2nd string OL supposed to help us make plays on D. Our offense hasn't been unstoppable and hasn't necessarily been good. But they have been good enough the last 2 years that we shouldn't have lost 10 of our last 16 games. I would be ok with the rieff pick if we wouldn't of resigned backyard and used his money to help out other needs. We don't have a good enough team to waste on players that can't come in and help immediately.


Obviously they haven't been good enough. They have had difficulty scoring TD's and they showed that again today. You can say what you want about the defence but they didn't give up a TD today.

The offence gets in the red zone and simply can't punch it in.

Looking at the draft as a way to select players based on need is really a recipe for disaster. If your concern is the secondary that's legitimate. I'm concerned as well. I'm not frustrated withMayhew for not drafting secondary help but I'm frustrated he didn't address the need through free agency or trade.

You address need through trade and free agency. You draft BPA. That's how you create quality depth which yo can then trade to fill in a need.


On a very limited basis. We don't want to go the Redskins route.
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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 25781
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

duanegarrison09 wrote:
Stylish,

It means too me that we can never be comfortable or expect to win a game when the right side of our OL consists of Raiola, Peterman, Cherilus.

Also, with a starting safety pair consisting of ageing Coleman and practice squad addition Silva, we can't expect to win.

We have one linebacker, one cornerback, and one broken safety in our back seven. Try to win with that!!

I am just saying we should not have high expectations for this team to win.


What also needs to be said is they started 5-0 last year. Since that point they are 6-10.
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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
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Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YlionsY wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
fresnolions wrote:
Diehardlionsfan, my take on why we lost the last 3 games is simple. Besides the horrific special teams play and horrible play calling. Against the niners and Titans our secondary couldn't stop multiple 3 and long situations and couldn't stop big plays. Against the vikings it was flat out special teams and bentley giving up 2 deep PIs and the 1st down catch in 4th quarter killed it. so how is a #4 Wr and 2nd string OL supposed to help us make plays on D. Our offense hasn't been unstoppable and hasn't necessarily been good. But they have been good enough the last 2 years that we shouldn't have lost 10 of our last 16 games. I would be ok with the rieff pick if we wouldn't of resigned backyard and used his money to help out other needs. We don't have a good enough team to waste on players that can't come in and help immediately.


Obviously they haven't been good enough. They have had difficulty scoring TD's and they showed that again today. You can say what you want about the defence but they didn't give up a TD today.

The offence gets in the red zone and simply can't punch it in.

Looking at the draft as a way to select players based on need is really a recipe for disaster. If your concern is the secondary that's legitimate. I'm concerned as well. I'm not frustrated withMayhew for not drafting secondary help but I'm frustrated he didn't address the need through free agency or trade.

You address need through trade and free agency. You draft BPA. That's how you create quality depth which yo can then trade to fill in a need.


On a very limited basis. We don't want to go the Redskins route.


It doesn't have to be limited but Mayhew can't give out stupid contracts like Washington gave Haynesworth.

At some point Mayhew has to address the weaknesses on this team. He can either trade some of the Lions very limited depth, trade draft picks or he can sign free agents. Unfortunately he doesn't seem to want to commit resources to improve the secondary. From my perspective it just keeps getting worse.

Pretty soon we will have you and Stylish playing the corners and Lions1957 and myself will be playing safety with our walkers.

I find myself very frustrated with this team. I've been waiting a great many years and every time they have an opportunity to either keep a satisfactory player for the secondary or trade for one or even move up for one all we hear is.

1. He wanted to much money so we let him walk.
2. They wanted to much to move up in the draft.
3. He wanted to much money to sign here.

In short, it's all excuses. No matter how I look at it he is simply making excuses and he can parade out these same excuses every year.

I have supported Mayhew and the coaches every step of the way but frankly the shine is becoming dull.

They don't have a player from this past draft making a meaningful contribution to the team. How does a team with so many weaknesses not draft a single player capable of contributing? I understand Reiff has loads of potential and he will be making a contribution in the future.

LOL....I'm so disgusted I told my wife I was selling what I have left of my season tickets this year. It's to long a drive to go to Detroit to see performances like these guys are producing.
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carlande


Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 1411
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
YlionsY wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
fresnolions wrote:
Diehardlionsfan, my take on why we lost the last 3 games is simple. Besides the horrific special teams play and horrible play calling. Against the niners and Titans our secondary couldn't stop multiple 3 and long situations and couldn't stop big plays. Against the vikings it was flat out special teams and bentley giving up 2 deep PIs and the 1st down catch in 4th quarter killed it. so how is a #4 Wr and 2nd string OL supposed to help us make plays on D. Our offense hasn't been unstoppable and hasn't necessarily been good. But they have been good enough the last 2 years that we shouldn't have lost 10 of our last 16 games. I would be ok with the rieff pick if we wouldn't of resigned backyard and used his money to help out other needs. We don't have a good enough team to waste on players that can't come in and help immediately.


Obviously they haven't been good enough. They have had difficulty scoring TD's and they showed that again today. You can say what you want about the defence but they didn't give up a TD today.

The offence gets in the red zone and simply can't punch it in.

Looking at the draft as a way to select players based on need is really a recipe for disaster. If your concern is the secondary that's legitimate. I'm concerned as well. I'm not frustrated withMayhew for not drafting secondary help but I'm frustrated he didn't address the need through free agency or trade.

You address need through trade and free agency. You draft BPA. That's how you create quality depth which yo can then trade to fill in a need.


On a very limited basis. We don't want to go the Redskins route.


It doesn't have to be limited but Mayhew can't give out stupid contracts like Washington gave Haynesworth.

At some point Mayhew has to address the weaknesses on this team. He can either trade some of the Lions very limited depth, trade draft picks or he can sign free agents. Unfortunately he doesn't seem to want to commit resources to improve the secondary. From my perspective it just keeps getting worse.

Pretty soon we will have you and Stylish playing the corners and Lions1957 and myself will be playing safety with our walkers.

I find myself very frustrated with this team. I've been waiting a great many years and every time they have an opportunity to either keep a satisfactory player for the secondary or trade for one or even move up for one all we hear is.

1. He wanted to much money so we let him walk.
2. They wanted to much to move up in the draft.
3. He wanted to much money to sign here.

In short, it's all excuses. No matter how I look at it he is simply making excuses and he can parade out these same excuses every year.

I have supported Mayhew and the coaches every step of the way but frankly the shine is becoming dull.

They don't have a player from this past draft making a meaningful contribution to the team. How does a team with so many weaknesses not draft a single player capable of contributing? I understand Reiff has loads of potential and he will be making a contribution in the future.

LOL....I'm so disgusted I told my wife I was selling what I have left of my season tickets this year. It's to long a drive to go to Detroit to see performances like these guys are producing.


I saw Broyles for the first time today (applause), granted he didn't get a reception (pfft). Meanwhile rookie cb Josh Robinson looked pretty good for the Vikes. I guess Broyles was just too good of a talent to pass up. Sitting on the bench is important when something is happening.

Meanwhile we've at least got Bentley who seems to know how to draw flags because he can't seem to turn his head around and play the ball. I'm still waiting for the opportunity to be impressed by him as others were in the pre-season. He seems to be able to tackle at least.

Good to see Reiff for a play even though nothing happened. I think at least Reiff is an adaptable super-sub untill someone goes down/retires/contract expires etc. so I can't criticize this one.
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Honalulufan20


Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 2687
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, BPA is for the later rounds or teams who need talent at any position. The fact of the matter is that we don't need talent at some positions but we really do need talent at others. Thats where this strategy ends and a new one begins.

The Patriots and Packers don't take BPA when they have holes because they already have talent, for example Green Bay drafted all defensive players because their defense gave up the most yards in the NFL last season. The Patriots drafted 2 TE's because they needed receiving threats two years ago and those tight ends turned into Gronkowski and Aaron Hernendez, arguably the two best tight ends in football. When the Patriots needed a safety they reached on Patrick Chung in the early second and he turned out to be a consistent starter. When they needed a corner they took McCourty. These two teams have been some of the most consistent teams in the past 10 years and thats because they realize that they have talent and take slightly lesser talented players in the draft to fill needs.

This isn't Matt Millen reaching for players so that he can "win now" to save his job like he did with Cherilus.

If we reached a little bit this year to take guys at positions of need we would more greatly improve the team than by taking BPA at a position of relative strength, and improvement is the goal within each year, is it not?

If the Lions could reach to fill the corner and safety positions with this draft, the team as a whole would be much better.

Say the draft pans out like this,
1- DeMarcus Milliner/Xavier Rhodes
2- Robert Lester/Bacarri Rambo
3- Johnny Adams

That's 2 corners, 1 who could start right away, a safety who could have a high impact right away, and that would make our defensive backfield

Houston (if he resigns)
Delmas
Lester/Rambo
Milliner/Rhodes

Thats a top 10 secondary in this league and easily improves your defense, not to mention allowing Bentley, who is a good tackler, be able to play special teams and aid in the kick coverage game. This would also allow the team to focus on developmental or situational players or even take a risk on an injured player like Brandon Jenkins from FSU or an offensive lineman or even a special teams ace.
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El Duderino


Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honalulufan20 wrote:

The Patriots and Packers don't take BPA when they have holes because they already have talent, for example Green Bay drafted all defensive players because their defense gave up the most yards in the NFL last season. The Patriots drafted 2 TE's because they needed receiving threats two years ago and those tight ends turned into Gronkowski and Aaron Hernendez, arguably the two best tight ends in football. When the Patriots needed a safety they reached on Patrick Chung in the early second and he turned out to be a consistent starter. When they needed a corner they took McCourty. These two teams have been some of the most consistent teams in the past 10 years and thats because they realize that they have talent and take slightly lesser talented players in the draft to fill needs.


I think people take the BPA too literally. You can still focus on one side of the ball, and still take the BPA. I'd hardly call any of the picks the Packers have made even a small reach, and The Patriots usually move around accordingly to where they see value, fill a need, and still (arguably) take the BPA.

The thing with Fairley and Reiff is they fell more than the Lions thought they would, so they felt they had to take them. Its not like Reiff wasn't a need either. Backus days are probably numbered.

Its obviously the Lions know they need help with the secondary, otherwise they wouldn't have tried to trade up two years in a row, or flirt with Johnathan Joseph, Nnamdi, and Duanta Robinson in free agency. I honestly don't think the Lions are going to fix the secondary unless they can make a big move in free agency, or draft a corner/safety in the first round of the draft. Drafting corners after the 1st rd have become a crapshoot, and if you want a legit #1 corner you have to get one in the first round.
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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 25781
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honalulufan20 wrote:
I agree, BPA is for the later rounds or teams who need talent at any position. The fact of the matter is that we don't need talent at some positions but we really do need talent at others. Thats where this strategy ends and a new one begins.

The Patriots and Packers don't take BPA when they have holes because they already have talent, for example Green Bay drafted all defensive players because their defense gave up the most yards in the NFL last season. The Patriots drafted 2 TE's because they needed receiving threats two years ago and those tight ends turned into Gronkowski and Aaron Hernendez, arguably the two best tight ends in football. When the Patriots needed a safety they reached on Patrick Chung in the early second and he turned out to be a consistent starter. When they needed a corner they took McCourty. These two teams have been some of the most consistent teams in the past 10 years and thats because they realize that they have talent and take slightly lesser talented players in the draft to fill needs.

This isn't Matt Millen reaching for players so that he can "win now" to save his job like he did with Cherilus.

If we reached a little bit this year to take guys at positions of need we would more greatly improve the team than by taking BPA at a position of relative strength, and improvement is the goal within each year, is it not?

If the Lions could reach to fill the corner and safety positions with this draft, the team as a whole would be much better.

Say the draft pans out like this,
1- DeMarcus Milliner/Xavier Rhodes
2- Robert Lester/Bacarri Rambo
3- Johnny Adams

That's 2 corners, 1 who could start right away, a safety who could have a high impact right away, and that would make our defensive backfield

Houston (if he resigns)
Delmas
Lester/Rambo
Milliner/Rhodes

Thats a top 10 secondary in this league and easily improves your defense, not to mention allowing Bentley, who is a good tackler, be able to play special teams and aid in the kick coverage game. This would also allow the team to focus on developmental or situational players or even take a risk on an injured player like Brandon Jenkins from FSU or an offensive lineman or even a special teams ace.


Top 10 secondary?

Come on, you can't make that claim. Those guys haven't even played a down.
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