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Raiders need draft Geno Smith, Bray, Or Matt Barkley next.
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 14295
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
I'm a fan of building the offensive line and defense first, then get a QB. That may be 4 years down the road, but if we get a QB now, and it takes 4 years for our team to be competitive, then we have just wasted 4 years of a franchise QB. Whereas if we build up the rest of the team, the QB can come in and we can theoretically be competitive for his entire career.


It's gonna take at least 3 years for any rookie QB to enter his prime. If you wait until you've build a strong team to draft your QB, you'll most likely lost some key pieces before your QB is peaking due to salary cap constraints. We have a solid LT, we have decent WRs, hopefully we'll have a system in place allowing us to run the ball effectively. We have some pieces on the offensive side. And a rookie QB wouldn't even have to start in year 1. There's a lot to learn around NFL coaching for a young QB.
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Burgesskills


Joined: 11 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't get you guys, you want Palmer to be our franchise QB really? Dude is getting old. We are rebuilding. He will never be Rich Gannon.

There were plenty of games Rich put us on his back and won us games. Palmer is not a good come from behind QB because he makes poor decisions and forces the ball. He can't make plays with his feet because he is pretty slow.

Anytime the pocket collapses 80% of the time its a sack.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5772
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Burgesskills wrote:
I don't get you guys, you want Palmer to be our franchise QB really? Dude is getting old. We are rebuilding. He will never be Rich Gannon.

There were plenty of games Rich put us on his back and won us games. Palmer is not a good come from behind QB because he makes poor decisions and forces the ball. He can't make plays with his feet because he is pretty slow.

Anytime the pocket collapses 80% of the time its a sack.


I'm not even going to weight in on the Palmer debate, But I had to note this.

Of the 3 things you listed there, they are all pretty significantly wrong.

He's made great decisions with the ball this year and has thrown only 2 picks one of which was a receiver falling.
He has shown to be, if not nimble, perfectly able to move. He's definitely no Vick, but he's no Rivers or Manning back there either.
When the pocket has collapsed this year he's shown a great propensity to still get a pass off or shift the pocket. He's been under quite a bit of pressure this year and hasn't taken many sacks at all.

Considering the 3 things you said are all totally off, I'm left wondering what it is exactly you have against the guy? He's no franchise all world QB, but he's not what you described either. Not at all. Why the hate?

Listen, if you feel the Raiders need to do something else at QB or just think he isn't enough, that's dandy. Why not just say that, and expand on it? But you're bashing this guy for a number of things that don't even describe the reality of things well and don't afford him any credit at all.
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5365
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
I'm a fan of building the offensive line and defense first, then get a QB. That may be 4 years down the road, but if we get a QB now, and it takes 4 years for our team to be competitive, then we have just wasted 4 years of a franchise QB. Whereas if we build up the rest of the team, the QB can come in and we can theoretically be competitive for his entire career.


It's gonna take at least 3 years for any rookie QB to enter his prime. If you wait until you've build a strong team to draft your QB, you'll most likely lost some key pieces before your QB is peaking due to salary cap constraints. We have a solid LT, we have decent WRs, hopefully we'll have a system in place allowing us to run the ball effectively. We have some pieces on the offensive side. And a rookie QB wouldn't even have to start in year 1. There's a lot to learn around NFL coaching for a young QB.


I understand that, but I just think the first 3 years or so of having that potentially great QB would be wasted if the rest of the team prevents us from going far- we dont need that kind of QB to do that. However, if we build up the rest of the offense first, by the time we take a QB our offense will be at full strength and thus have the best shot to compete.

Its not like we are chock full of young, promising talent. The only guys that would leave within the next 3 years are guys on our team right now (Veldheer, Wiz, Moore, DHB, Brisel, etc). Anyone else we might draft by that time wiould still be under contract for a while. Aside from JV and Wiz, none of those other guys would be tough to replace. Even still, we now have a competent GM at the helm so I am not really worried about finding starting-caliber players. If we have an elite young QB, our drafts and FA can be focused on replacing a lineman or whatever.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:

excuse, excuses.

i understand the injury thing but when you are in the playoffs guess what you play the best teams in the nfl. he had pitt and balt in his division so the top 3 defense excuse doesnt fly with me. you either get it done and get props or you dont.


You gave Campbell and Pryor tons of excuses. You just hate Palmer, that's all. Reasoning w/ you about him is physically impossible.

EDIT: AND HOW COULD I FORGET that you are the KING of excuses for that bleeping moron JaMarcus Russell. Hell, you STILL gave that dude excuses earlier this year. Terrible. You just need to stop talking Carson. You are the definition of a hypocrite.


what excuses have i made for jc or pryor?
please enlighten me

i give anyone props, but they have to earn it, including cp.
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NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:

excuse, excuses.

i understand the injury thing but when you are in the playoffs guess what you play the best teams in the nfl. he had pitt and balt in his division so the top 3 defense excuse doesnt fly with me. you either get it done and get props or you dont.


You gave Campbell and Pryor tons of excuses. You just hate Palmer, that's all. Reasoning w/ you about him is physically impossible.

EDIT: AND HOW COULD I FORGET that you are the KING of excuses for that bleeping moron JaMarcus Russell. Hell, you STILL gave that dude excuses earlier this year. Terrible. You just need to stop talking Carson. You are the definition of a hypocrite.


what excuses have i made for jc or pryor?
please enlighten me

i give anyone props, but they have to earn it, including cp.


I don't have time to go find any examples but I'm pretty sure you've said the "it's pretty much Pryor's rookie season" and also I'm pretty sure I've seen the "Well this is Campbell's 8th different OC" and we all know the absolute dumbest things that have came out of debating Russell w/ you so I don't feel the need to proceed.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:

excuse, excuses.

i understand the injury thing but when you are in the playoffs guess what you play the best teams in the nfl. he had pitt and balt in his division so the top 3 defense excuse doesnt fly with me. you either get it done and get props or you dont.


You gave Campbell and Pryor tons of excuses. You just hate Palmer, that's all. Reasoning w/ you about him is physically impossible.

EDIT: AND HOW COULD I FORGET that you are the KING of excuses for that bleeping moron JaMarcus Russell. Hell, you STILL gave that dude excuses earlier this year. Terrible. You just need to stop talking Carson. You are the definition of a hypocrite.


what excuses have i made for jc or pryor?
please enlighten me

i give anyone props, but they have to earn it, including cp.


I don't have time to go find any examples but I'm pretty sure you've said the "it's pretty much Pryor's rookie season" and also I'm pretty sure I've seen the "Well this is Campbell's 8th different OC" and we all know the absolute dumbest things that have came out of debating Russell w/ you so I don't feel the need to proceed.


-pryor hasnt even played. even in the after game reviews i said pryor sucked, except for the det game.

-i never knew jc had 8 diff oc's. interesting Laughing

- just ftr ive agree to how he screwed himself over. does anyone even remember jr's last game?
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NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5365
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
just ftr ive agree to how he screwed himself over. does anyone even remember jr's last game?


No, because it was right on par with the rest of his career.
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La_Vader wrote:
I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 5944
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:

The D-linemen took a cheap shot on Palmer's knee and knocked him out. Can't blame Palmer for that.


And became the catalyst for a rule change.
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Nodisrespect on building inside out wrote:
teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 14932
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
just ftr ive agree to how he screwed himself over. does anyone even remember jr's last game?


No, because it was right on par with the rest of his career.


fwiw he threw the gw td to chaz to beat den in den knocking them out the playoffs. id kill for a win like that nowadays.
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green24 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 5944
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Burgesskills wrote:
I don't get you guys, you want Palmer to be our franchise QB really? Dude is getting old. We are rebuilding. He will never be Rich Gannon.

There were plenty of games Rich put us on his back and won us games. Palmer is not a good come from behind QB because he makes poor decisions and forces the ball. He can't make plays with his feet because he is pretty slow.

Anytime the pocket collapses 80% of the time its a sack.


I'm not even going to weight in on the Palmer debate, But I had to note this.

Of the 3 things you listed there, they are all pretty significantly wrong.

He's made great decisions with the ball this year and has thrown only 2 picks one of which was a receiver falling.
He has shown to be, if not nimble, perfectly able to move. He's definitely no Vick, but he's no Rivers or Manning back there either.
When the pocket has collapsed this year he's shown a great propensity to still get a pass off or shift the pocket. He's been under quite a bit of pressure this year and hasn't taken many sacks at all.

Considering the 3 things you said are all totally off, I'm left wondering what it is exactly you have against the guy? He's no franchise all world QB, but he's not what you described either. Not at all. Why the hate?

Listen, if you feel the Raiders need to do something else at QB or just think he isn't enough, that's dandy. Why not just say that, and expand on it? But you're bashing this guy for a number of things that don't even describe the reality of things well and don't afford him any credit at all.


+1

wow, you really brought it here.
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Nodisrespect on building inside out wrote:
teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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91jmay


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 24738
Location: Wonderland
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
just ftr ive agree to how he screwed himself over. does anyone even remember jr's last game?


No, because it was right on par with the rest of his career.


fwiw he threw the gw td to chaz to beat den in den knocking them out the playoffs. id kill for a win like that nowadays.

Do you get off on making things up? His last game was a loss to Baltimore where he threw for 100 yards 0 TDs 1 INT and a 56 QBR.

In the amazing win over Denver he had 47 passing yards. 47.
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Silver&Black88 wrote:
smokey1212 wrote:

Allen said he would play the hot hand, in what world is McFadden's hand hot?

He touched Dennis Allen's seat before the game.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 14932
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

91jmay wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
just ftr ive agree to how he screwed himself over. does anyone even remember jr's last game?


No, because it was right on par with the rest of his career.


fwiw he threw the gw td to chaz to beat den in den knocking them out the playoffs. id kill for a win like that nowadays.

Do you get off on making things up? His last game was a loss to Baltimore where he threw for 100 yards 0 TDs 1 INT and a 56 QBR.

In the amazing win over Denver he had 47 passing yards. 47.


my bad i guess he did come in the 3rd qtr vrs the ravens. i stand corrected. Embarassed
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green24 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
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Burgesskills


Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 1114
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually I’m not off base on these things. I’ve watched each game more than once. Your basing your assessment off of 4 games? Mind you we are 1-3 and while he has made some decent decisions he hasn’t been special. He actually has thrown four interceptions, but luckily for him the defenders dropped the ball. He has overthrown guys, underthrown, gotten receivers killed, lollygagged to the line, has been indecisive with the ball leading to sacks.
I don’t hate him, I think he is the best QB we’ve had since Gannon, but he is not special and surely isn’t worth what we pay him. By the time we are ready to compete his career will have reached his twilight.
Some of you keep praising this guy for being mediocre by saying “he is making smart decisions”, “he isn’t forcing the ball”…blah blah. Bottom line is we pay him 16 million this year and might win 4 games. Do you think the Colts would have been in position to draft Luck this year if Manning played last season….H to the no. They would have made it to the playoffs, so don’t tell me a QB can’t succeed with a poor team around him. The other some of you keep saying is “he’s been our best player this year”….so what that’s like saying I was the skinniest kid at fat camp last year or some dude is the nicest murderer you’ve ever met. Get real. If you guys think Palmer is the best choice for this team at QB for the next few years, then prepare for no playoffs and years of .500 or below .500 football.
Some of you guys are complete homers and seem to know little about football. You guys base your assessments off of the way you feel about a guy. He will always be average. You guys are entitled to your opinion, even though it isn’t clear or doesn’t make sense. You guys like Palmer now and think we’ll win with him now? We won’t. Do you think this team will make a tremendous turn next year, we won’t. What I say reigns true….by the time this team is rebuilt and ready to really compete he will be headed down is his career, which is sad to say because right now he isn’t great, nor is he very good, he is just average. Comparable to Kerry Collins’ Raiders days.
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Burgesskills wrote:
Actually I’m not off base on these things. I’ve watched each game more than once. Your basing your assessment off of 4 games? Mind you we are 1-3 and while he has made some decent decisions he hasn’t been special. He actually has thrown four interceptions, but luckily for him the defenders dropped the ball. He has overthrown guys, underthrown, gotten receivers killed, lollygagged to the line, has been indecisive with the ball leading to sacks.
I don’t hate him, I think he is the best QB we’ve had since Gannon, but he is not special and surely isn’t worth what we pay him. By the time we are ready to compete his career will have reached his twilight.
Some of you keep praising this guy for being mediocre by saying “he is making smart decisions”, “he isn’t forcing the ball”…blah blah. Bottom line is we pay him 16 million this year and might win 4 games. Do you think the Colts would have been in position to draft Luck this year if Manning played last season….H to the no. They would have made it to the playoffs, so don’t tell me a QB can’t succeed with a poor team around him. The other some of you keep saying is “he’s been our best player this year”….so what that’s like saying I was the skinniest kid at fat camp last year or some dude is the nicest murderer you’ve ever met. Get real. If you guys think Palmer is the best choice for this team at QB for the next few years, then prepare for no playoffs and years of .500 or below .500 football.
Some of you guys are complete homers and seem to know little about football. You guys base your assessments off of the way you feel about a guy. He will always be average. You guys are entitled to your opinion, even though it isn’t clear or doesn’t make sense. You guys like Palmer now and think we’ll win with him now? We won’t. Do you think this team will make a tremendous turn next year, we won’t. What I say reigns true….by the time this team is rebuilt and ready to really compete he will be headed down is his career, which is sad to say because right now he isn’t great, nor is he very good, he is just average. Comparable to Kerry Collins’ Raiders days.


This is one of the best posts I've ever read here for numerous reasons that aren't "ethical".....

Thanks, man!!
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