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Will AJ Green surpass Megatron
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nixa37


Joined: 14 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reckless123 wrote:
What if AJ Green just stinks it up for the rest of season from this sunday. Is he still top 5?

Okay, but what if Green keeps this up the rest of the season? That will mean that in retrospect that he was clearly one of the 5 best WR in the league right now, but you refused to admit until after it was obvious to everybody.
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johndeere1707


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reckless123 wrote:
johndeere1707 wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
johndeere1707 wrote:
Ok besides the obvious haters in the room ^^^ i think we can all agree that Green is top 5


Speak for yourself.

I'm a hater? I actually love AJ Green and i can envision him being top 5 in the very near future but hes not right now. Youre a bengals fan, so there is hardly going to be any objectivity coming from you.



I am actually very objective. But to say that AJ Green isn't top 5, or even top 10 for that matter is absurd. Sorry just saying


Right now, AJ Green is playing like a top 5 WR but the season isnt finish. What if AJ Green just stinks it up for the rest of season from this sunday. Is he still top 5?


Well while highly unlikely, something must have gone terribly wrong like an injury to Dalton or to Green himself. He is a top 5 talent and is a top 5 receiver right now, if not higher and has produced as such. Go look at his first 20 games as a player vs any receiver you want and see who is better
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Jakuvious


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nixa37 wrote:

Why would you ever decide how good a season is based purely off of raw stats without any consideration for surrounding talent, opportunities, or situations? This also completely ignores the fact that Green drew the most DPI's of any receiver for the second most yardage.


I didn't. I was only replying to the statement that his numbers were great.

Also, you're using stats here, so isn't that kind of hypocritical? The number of DPI's and penalty yards is a stat.
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reckless123


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nixa37 wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
What if AJ Green just stinks it up for the rest of season from this sunday. Is he still top 5?

Okay, but what if Green keeps this up the rest of the season? That will mean that in retrospect that he was clearly one of the 5 best WR in the league right now, but you refused to admit until after it was obvious to everybody.


Exactly, if he continues his level of play then you will have more of an argument imo. Because only 4 games have been played, not even half but a mere 4 games. Some of the more experienced guys can just explode and play elite for the rest of the season.
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reckless123


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johndeere1707 wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
johndeere1707 wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
johndeere1707 wrote:
Ok besides the obvious haters in the room ^^^ i think we can all agree that Green is top 5


Speak for yourself.

I'm a hater? I actually love AJ Green and i can envision him being top 5 in the very near future but hes not right now. Youre a bengals fan, so there is hardly going to be any objectivity coming from you.



I am actually very objective. But to say that AJ Green isn't top 5, or even top 10 for that matter is absurd. Sorry just saying


Right now, AJ Green is playing like a top 5 WR but the season isnt finish. What if AJ Green just stinks it up for the rest of season from this sunday. Is he still top 5?


Well while highly unlikely, something must have gone terribly wrong like an injury to Dalton or to Green himself. He is a top 5 talent and is a top 5 receiver right now, if not higher and has produced as such. Go look at his first 20 games as a player vs any receiver you want and see who is better


Its probably unlikely because of his talent. But its not impossible and at the same time, youre under the assumption that AJ Green will continue his level of play, while the other receivers in the league will keep up their current level of play.

Is saying that he is playing like a top 5 WR right now not good enough?
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nixa37


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:
nixa37 wrote:

Why would you ever decide how good a season is based purely off of raw stats without any consideration for surrounding talent, opportunities, or situations? This also completely ignores the fact that Green drew the most DPI's of any receiver for the second most yardage.


I didn't. I was only replying to the statement that his numbers were great.

Also, you're using stats here, so isn't that kind of hypocritical? The number of DPI's and penalty yards is a stat.

I was adding something that your analysis ignored. I don't make assessments based on raw stats. I try to combine the eye test with stats, while also considering things like surrounding talent, opportunities, etc. I would make the argument that his numbers are great once you consider things like surrounding talent, opportunities, etc. Green's performance last season looks a lot better than if you just compare him to the rest of the league solely on yards and TDs, which is what you were doing.
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reckless123


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nixa37 wrote:

You're right, it was clearly better than Anquan Boldin's rookie season considering that Green had 50 fewer balls thrown his way, yet was close to Q in bulk stats. This is of course leaving aside the fact that the Bengals were actually in close games, so Green didn't get to pile up yardage late after games were pretty much decided like Boldin did.


He was close?

Anquan Boldin: 101 receptions, 1377 yards, 6 plays of over 40 yards+ and 20 plays of over 20+. And his QB was Jeff Blake.

AJ Green: 65 receptions, 1058 yards, 7 TDs, 19 plays of 20+ and 7 plays of 40+ and he has Andy Dalton. 8 TDs.

Its not far apart but its not close either.
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nixa37


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reckless123 wrote:
nixa37 wrote:

You're right, it was clearly better than Anquan Boldin's rookie season considering that Green had 50 fewer balls thrown his way, yet was close to Q in bulk stats. This is of course leaving aside the fact that the Bengals were actually in close games, so Green didn't get to pile up yardage late after games were pretty much decided like Boldin did.


He was close?

Anquan Boldin: 101 receptions, 1377 yards, 6 plays of over 40 yards+ and 20 plays of over 20+. And his QB was Jeff Blake.

AJ Green: 65 receptions, 1058 yards, 7 TDs, 19 plays of 20+ and 7 plays of 40+ and he has Andy Dalton. 8 TDs.

Its not far apart but its not close either.

I think it's pretty close once you consider the fact that Green gained an extra 116 yards from DPI relative to Boldin (you're free to ignore that) and played 1 fewer game.

Besides, like I said, Boldin was able to pad his stats in losses because his team was so awful. Just look at his splits. He averaged just 51.5 yards in their 4 wins compared to 97.6 in their 12 losses. By way of comparison, Green averaged 77.3 yards in wins and just 60.2 yards in losses (because unlike Boldin, he was actually integral to his team's success).

If you're really more impressed by a guy racking up numbers because he gets thrown the ball 10 times a game on a terrible team that's always losing than a guy who is integral to the success of a playoff team with slightly lesser numbers, then I just don't think you understand the game.
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reckless123


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nixa37 wrote:

I think it's pretty close once you consider the fact that Green gained an extra 116 yards from DPI relative to Boldin (you're free to ignore that) and played 1 fewer game.

Besides, like I said, Boldin was able to pad his stats in losses because his team was so awful. Just look at his splits. He averaged just 51.5 yards in their 4 wins compared to 97.6 in their 12 losses. By way of comparison, Green averaged 77.3 yards in wins and just 60.2 yards in losses (because unlike Boldin, he was actually integral to his team's success).

If you're really more impressed by a guy racking up numbers because he gets thrown the ball 10 times a game on a terrible team that's always losing than a guy who is integral to the success of a playoff team with slightly lesser numbers, then I just don't think you understand the game.


Of course im ignoring the PI stats.

I didnt say i was more impressed, i said he had a better year at least statistically.

Do you think AJ Green is the reason why the bengals went 9-7? He may have been an important part but did you ever consider the fact that AJ Green played on a better team? Was Calvin Johnson stat padding all those years prior to 2011? What about andre johnson? Andre Johnson was widely considered the best WR in football before he got injured last season.
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Mattwaukee


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes
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baconrad3


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nixa37 wrote:
Jakuvious wrote:
baconrad3 wrote:
Jakuvious wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:

It's funny how people are simply discounting AJ Green's rookie season as if it were simply nothing special and done all the time. Green was only the 8th WR in NFL history to have over 1000 yds receiving in his rookie season... and he missed 1.5 games.

So sure, Brian Hartline is putting up numbers that are not to be trusted at this point. But AJ Green after having about as elite a rookie season you can have for a WR while playing with a rookie QB (it's not like he was playing with Tom Brady/Peyton Manning) is playing at an elite level for the quarter pole of this season. Based on all of the information we have at our disposal... how can he not be considered to be an elite level WR?

Are we to withhold ranking ANY rookie until at least two seasons in the league? And if we make it two, why not make it three? Or four? As far as I'm concerned, Green did it one year and is doing it again. Until he isn't 'doing it' I see no reason to hold his lack of playing years in the NFL against him.


You're confusing a great season FOR a rookie and a great season. Just because 1000 yards is uncommon for a rookie, doesn't mean it was an elite season when you're comparing him against guys who aren't rookies.


Did you watch Green play last year? He played at an elite level. He looked like a WR that had been in the league for 3+ years. He constantly required double coverage and was the sole focus of defenses....and he still put up 1000 yds and 7 tds despite missing 1.5 games and playing with a rookie at QB and with no run game.

His numbers were great, but the eye test easily screams elite to me. He amazed me every single time I watched him.


Those numbers aren't great, they were great for a rookie. 13 players last year had more receiving yards AND receiving TDs. Two others topped 1000 yards and 7 TDs, but were just below Green in yardage.

That means 16 guys last year topped 1000 yards and 7 TDs. That's not great. That's good, or above average. His rookie year is getting greatly overrated because of how he has performed this season. It was great for a rookie, but it was not great, and yes, I watched him play.

Why would you ever decide how good a season is based purely off of raw stats without any consideration for surrounding talent, opportunities, or situations? This also completely ignores the fact that Green drew the most DPI's of any receiver for the second most yardage.


Didn't you know that it's all about who puts up the best stats and who has done it the longest? Duh Laughing


Reckless and Jakuvious...You guys really do continue to ignore other variables that come into play with Green. This is just like the Green vs Jones thread......Jones supporters just argued that Julio put up similar numbers in less games....

Green DID have a great season last year. If you wanna just look at his yardage and TD numbers and say he didn't, that's cool. But you're being completely ignorant when doing so.

Nixa, there is no point. Some people choose to base their opinions purely off of raw stats and longevity. Not everyone takes actual existing and important variables into account like we do.

Reckless....how can you just sit there and say "Yeah I'm ignoring his DPI stats"... That's ludicrous! How can you ignore that? Oh right because it just further illustrates truly how dominating Green has been since he's entered the league.

That's another thing....Green has pretty much played at a high-to elite level since day 1 in the NFL. It took Megatron a couple years until he started playing at the elite level he is now. That is pretty scary.....There hasn't really been receivers this dominating in their first 19 games in the league since Boldin and Moss...
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baconrad3


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nixa37 wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
nixa37 wrote:

You're right, it was clearly better than Anquan Boldin's rookie season considering that Green had 50 fewer balls thrown his way, yet was close to Q in bulk stats. This is of course leaving aside the fact that the Bengals were actually in close games, so Green didn't get to pile up yardage late after games were pretty much decided like Boldin did.


He was close?

Anquan Boldin: 101 receptions, 1377 yards, 6 plays of over 40 yards+ and 20 plays of over 20+. And his QB was Jeff Blake.

AJ Green: 65 receptions, 1058 yards, 7 TDs, 19 plays of 20+ and 7 plays of 40+ and he has Andy Dalton. 8 TDs.

Its not far apart but its not close either.

I think it's pretty close once you consider the fact that Green gained an extra 116 yards from DPI relative to Boldin (you're free to ignore that) and played 1 fewer game.

Besides, like I said, Boldin was able to pad his stats in losses because his team was so awful. Just look at his splits. He averaged just 51.5 yards in their 4 wins compared to 97.6 in their 12 losses. By way of comparison, Green averaged 77.3 yards in wins and just 60.2 yards in losses (because unlike Boldin, he was actually integral to his team's success).

If you're really more impressed by a guy racking up numbers because he gets thrown the ball 10 times a game on a terrible team that's always losing than a guy who is integral to the success of a playoff team with slightly lesser numbers, then I just don't think you understand the game.



Missed this post.....But had to comment on it because it is a great one.

Bravo. You've pretty much held down the entire debate for Green by yourself this thread and you have been damn convincing. If there was a rep button, I'd be pressing it. Applause
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nixa37


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reckless123 wrote:
nixa37 wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
What if AJ Green just stinks it up for the rest of season from this sunday. Is he still top 5?

Okay, but what if Green keeps this up the rest of the season? That will mean that in retrospect that he was clearly one of the 5 best WR in the league right now, but you refused to admit until after it was obvious to everybody.


Exactly, if he continues his level of play then you will have more of an argument imo. Because only 4 games have been played, not even half but a mere 4 games. Some of the more experienced guys can just explode and play elite for the rest of the season.

What do you mean explode if you don't mean stats? Do you mean someone suddenly gets a lot better at football in the middle of the season? I'm guessing not. Like I said, I don't rank players based on stats. What I've seen has convinced me Green is a top 5 WR. Someone I think is worse just putting up big stats is meaningless unless it comes along with an actual increase in their skill level.
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reckless123


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

baconrad3 wrote:


Didn't you know that it's all about who puts up the best stats and who has done it the longest? Duh Laughing


Reckless and Jakuvious...You guys really do continue to ignore other variables that come into play with Green. This is just like the Green vs Jones thread......Jones supporters just argued that Julio put up similar numbers in less games....

Green DID have a great season last year. If you wanna just look at his yardage and TD numbers and say he didn't, that's cool. But you're being completely ignorant when doing so.

Nixa, there is no point. Some people choose to base their opinions purely off of raw stats and longevity. Not everyone takes actual existing and important variables into account like we do.

Reckless....how can you just sit there and say "Yeah I'm ignoring his DPI stats"... That's ludicrous! How can you ignore that? Oh right because it just further illustrates truly how dominating Green has been since he's entered the league.

That's another thing....Green has pretty much played at a high-to elite level since day 1 in the NFL. It took Megatron a couple years until he started playing at the elite level he is now. That is pretty scary.....There hasn't really been receivers this dominating in their first 19 games in the league since Boldin and Moss...


He had a great rookie season but lets not act like he had an elite season. It was a great season for a rookie, just to make you happy i will say he had an elite season for a rookie but by no means was it a Great season if you compare it to other WRs. It was a good season in a vacuum.

Of course im discrediting PI stats because it is stupid if you ask me. Because first of all PI calls are subjective (which ive said on numerous occasions), all games are officiated differently. There is a reason why head coaches remind players of the stats that a particular official or set of officials of certain calls. Also just because you throw a pass, it doesnt mean youre going to catch the ball. What if a QB inaccurately throws a ball that the WR had no chance of getting it but the official still calls a PI then how is that fair. Youre using it to buffer up AJ Green. We dont normally do it, so why do it now?

Why are people ignoring what i am saying. I said he is playing at a top 5 level but that doesnt automatically put him in my top 5.
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baconrad3


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reckless123 wrote:
baconrad3 wrote:


Didn't you know that it's all about who puts up the best stats and who has done it the longest? Duh Laughing


Reckless and Jakuvious...You guys really do continue to ignore other variables that come into play with Green. This is just like the Green vs Jones thread......Jones supporters just argued that Julio put up similar numbers in less games....

Green DID have a great season last year. If you wanna just look at his yardage and TD numbers and say he didn't, that's cool. But you're being completely ignorant when doing so.

Nixa, there is no point. Some people choose to base their opinions purely off of raw stats and longevity. Not everyone takes actual existing and important variables into account like we do.

Reckless....how can you just sit there and say "Yeah I'm ignoring his DPI stats"... That's ludicrous! How can you ignore that? Oh right because it just further illustrates truly how dominating Green has been since he's entered the league.

That's another thing....Green has pretty much played at a high-to elite level since day 1 in the NFL. It took Megatron a couple years until he started playing at the elite level he is now. That is pretty scary.....There hasn't really been receivers this dominating in their first 19 games in the league since Boldin and Moss...


He had a great rookie season but lets not act like he had an elite season. It was a great season for a rookie, just to make you happy i will say he had an elite season for a rookie but by no means was it a Great season if you compare it to other WRs. It was a good season in a vacuum.

Of course im discrediting PI stats because it is stupid if you ask me. Because first of all PI calls are subjective (which ive said on numerous occasions), all games are officiated differently. There is a reason why head coaches remind players of the stats that a particular official or set of officials of certain calls. Also just because you throw a pass, it doesnt mean youre going to catch the ball. What if a QB inaccurately throws a ball that the WR had no chance of getting it but the official still calls a PI then how is that fair. Youre using it to buffer up AJ Green. We dont normally do it, so why do it now?

Why are people ignoring what i am saying. I said he is playing at a top 5 level but that doesnt automatically put him in my top 5.


I think it's pretty clear that he's top 5.....Really what I want to see is how long it takes him to become the best in the game. Because I have a feeling it's going to be very soon.
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