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Will AJ Green surpass Megatron
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nixa37


Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 2961
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheGreatDebater wrote:
AJ Green is NOT better than CJ/AJ/Fitz and arguably Nicks,White,Mike Wallace and Greg Jennings are better

1.CJ
2.Fitz
3.AJ
4.White
5.Green

If you're going to make 3 posts in the thread, it would be nice if you actually added your reasoning at some point. Is there something beyond having been in the league longer that really separates those guys? I don't think anyone disagrees that those guys are more proven and have been better in the past, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're better right now and going forward. It's not like the Bengals have a lot of talent surrounding Green (seriously, their other 2 primary WRs right now are Armon Binns and Andrew Hawkins) on offense, yet since he joined the team they've been pretty good.


Last edited by nixa37 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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johndeere1707


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheGreatDebater wrote:
AJ Green is NOT better than CJ/AJ/Fitz and arguably Nicks,White,Mike Wallace and Greg Jennings are better

1.CJ
2.Fitz
3.AJ
4.White
5.Green


Are you kidding. Have you seen AJ Green play?
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onepostlegend


Joined: 04 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never quite understood or appreciated "X has been doing it for years, how could you POSSIBLY say Y is better than X" arguments. One would certainly be remiss to deny the accomplishments of an established veteran, but that in itself shouldn't preclude thoughtful analysis. Let me illustrate my point with a hypothetical:

If Calvin Johnson's 2011 season--1681 yards, 16 TDs, etc.--were his ROOKIE season, what about his being a rookie would have made that season any different from his 2011-as-fifth-season season? Why wouldn't he be the unanimous top receiver after a year like that as a rookie? Because Andre Johnson has been "doing it longer?" No, that's senseless. It's clear that a receiver like Greg Jennings--not to pick on Jennings--belongs nowhere near AJ Green in a comparison of top receivers in the league--that Jennings has been "doing it longer" is no consolation for his having an inferior skill set (especially since Green is outplaying him this season).

Furthermore, it could be the case that AJ Green's 2012 mirrors--or approaches--Calvin Johnson's 2011. But AJ Green at Week 17 won't be much--if at all--better than AJ Green at Week 5 (the largest improvements to a player's skill set are made in the offseason). So, if somebody says they need to "wait and see" whether a player produces at the rate at which he has been producing--especially when this hypothetical person in question is simply waiting until the end of the season--they aren't providing any helpful analysis about the player, they are simply non-committal on an issue in which they probably already have enough evidence to make a committed argument either way.

Arguments like "Calvin Johnson is stronger, faster and better after the catch than AJ Green, therefore he is a better player" could be wrong, but at least it is a valid assessment that takes the skills of each player into consideration as opposed to dismissing one player on the strength of his competitor's resume. Mike Wallace isn't even close to the caliber of receiver AJ Green is. Why are they in the same tier?

What does being in the league a long time allow you to do? Learn how to take care of your body and get away with cheating (basically, that's about it). Neither of those things have a bearing on how we evaluate players (sure, players who take care of their bodies tend to be more durable, but nobody was making an argument about durability in the first place). Granted, being in the league for a long time allows players to hone their skills, as well, but AJ Green's skills are ALREADY comparable to every other elite receiver in the league.

I forgot about the "mental aspect" of the game. One might suggest that a more experienced player has a more cerebral approach to the game than younger players. First, that probably applies less to Wide Receivers than just about any other position, and, second, that has the potential to be fine analysis, but nobody has explained why/how Calvin's experience has given him a mental edge over Green.

With all of that said, Green is not better than Calvin Johnson. I think he can improve and surpass him, though, at some point.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nixa37 wrote:
bigboi wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
Bohlmann20 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
In my opinion, his lack of size and the fact that he's no where near as good after the catch as Megatron is an automatic no. Megatron is probably faster too. and stronger.


An automatic no? Jerry Rice has a lack of size and is not really close to CJ after the catch either. Megatron is obviously faster and stronger than Jerry as well.

What say you?


You're completely and entirely wrong.


I lol'd when I saw that. Rice is arguably the best of all time when it comes to RAC.

Well, I don't think R2B was really referring to the type of YAC ability that Rice had. Rice's ability came largely from setting up defenders on the route, catching it in stride, and busting it. I think Green could turn into a great YAC WR in that same mold. CJ is just a different sort of animal though with his ability to shrug off defenders, but I think he lags behind Rice (and potentially Green) in the other sense.

Green has shown a pretty sick stiff arm in the past too. For all the talk about how skinny he is, he has good upper body strength (more bench reps than Julio for example) and his freakishly long arms (an inch longer than CJ) certainly help with the stiff arm as well.


No, it didn't. Rice's YAC ability came from him breaking tackles and making people miss in space along with what you mentioned.

Bohlmann20 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
Bohlmann20 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
In my opinion, his lack of size and the fact that he's no where near as good after the catch as Megatron is an automatic no. Megatron is probably faster too. and stronger.


An automatic no? Jerry Rice has a lack of size and is not really close to CJ after the catch either. Megatron is obviously faster and stronger than Jerry as well.

What say you?


You're completely and entirely wrong.


I'd rather have CJ if I needed to break a screen for a big gain.


Well, you're just flat out wrong.
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TheVillain112


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will be interesting to see how AJ Green does this Sunday against Sean Smith. One of his major flaws last season was beating the jam against physical corners. We'll see how far he's come route running and physicality wise this game.

Green supposedly put on 10 lbs. of muscle and worked out with Megatron in the offseason. We'll see if it paid off...
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skywindO2 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Should see some Orlovsky vs Manziel this week in the battle of "who's less aware of their surroundings"

Orlovsky has too much experience here. Manziel doesn't stand a chance.
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Bohlmann20


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:

Bohlmann20 wrote:

I'd rather have CJ if I needed to break a screen for a big gain.


Well, you're just flat out wrong.


Well, if that's the case, I'd rather be wrong than right. Very Happy
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Supersuavesky


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What? Of course Green will be better. What kind of thread is this.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

onepostlegend wrote:
I've never quite understood or appreciated "X has been doing it for years, how could you POSSIBLY say Y is better than X" arguments. One would certainly be remiss to deny the accomplishments of an established veteran, but that in itself shouldn't preclude thoughtful analysis. Let me illustrate my point with a hypothetical:

If Calvin Johnson's 2011 season--1681 yards, 16 TDs, etc.--were his ROOKIE season, what about his being a rookie would have made that season any different from his 2011-as-fifth-season season? Why wouldn't he be the unanimous top receiver after a year like that as a rookie? Because Andre Johnson has been "doing it longer?" No, that's senseless. It's clear that a receiver like Greg Jennings--not to pick on Jennings--belongs nowhere near AJ Green in a comparison of top receivers in the league--that Jennings has been "doing it longer" is no consolation for his having an inferior skill set (especially since Green is outplaying him this season).

Furthermore, it could be the case that AJ Green's 2012 mirrors--or approaches--Calvin Johnson's 2011. But AJ Green at Week 17 won't be much--if at all--better than AJ Green at Week 5 (the largest improvements to a player's skill set are made in the offseason). So, if somebody says they need to "wait and see" whether a player produces at the rate at which he has been producing--especially when this hypothetical person in question is simply waiting until the end of the season--they aren't providing any helpful analysis about the player, they are simply non-committal on an issue in which they probably already have enough evidence to make a committed argument either way.

Arguments like "Calvin Johnson is stronger, faster and better after the catch than AJ Green, therefore he is a better player" could be wrong, but at least it is a valid assessment that takes the skills of each player into consideration as opposed to dismissing one player on the strength of his competitor's resume. Mike Wallace isn't even close to the caliber of receiver AJ Green is. Why are they in the same tier?

What does being in the league a long time allow you to do? Learn how to take care of your body and get away with cheating (basically, that's about it). Neither of those things have a bearing on how we evaluate players (sure, players who take care of their bodies tend to be more durable, but nobody was making an argument about durability in the first place). Granted, being in the league for a long time allows players to hone their skills, as well, but AJ Green's skills are ALREADY comparable to every other elite receiver in the league.

I forgot about the "mental aspect" of the game. One might suggest that a more experienced player has a more cerebral approach to the game than younger players. First, that probably applies less to Wide Receivers than just about any other position, and, second, that has the potential to be fine analysis, but nobody has explained why/how Calvin's experience has given him a mental edge over Green.

With all of that said, Green is not better than Calvin Johnson. I think he can improve and surpass him, though, at some point.

This just might be one of the top 10 posts I've seen on this forum and I completely agree. It's like JJ Watt, why wait to elevate him over guys, if he's been dominating at an unbelievable level.

Now to answer the OP, I wouldn't put AJ Green over Megatron simply because I don't believe- at this point- he's as good with beating the press, I don't think he has the same vertical ability, and I think his ability to break tackles has some room for improvement. At this point, I'd put AJ Green in the discussion with Fitz and AJ. I can't confidently put Green over either guy until I can see how he does against a lockdown corner with physicality. I'm confident that CJ can dominate against any corner. Revis might be the best at slowing him down, but with good QB play, I don't think there is any corner that can guard him man2man. Even with Fitz, with good QB play I'm not sure if anyone can guard him 1on1 (which he doesn't have). Right now I have Green as my #4 WR behind those three but before Roddy White. I'll wait to see how he proves his skill set against a variety of corner talents to see if their isn't some element that he's still weak in.

I don't need a full season to know that Green is an elite WR though, he's easily better than Jennings and Mike Wallace at this point- and I don't think any AFCN poster who knows his stuff would argue otherwise (moreso regarding the Wallace point). I think he's right there with AJ, but I'll wait to see if some other weakness of his is exploited that I haven't seen.

That said, while he doesn't have the same vertical as CJ, I think his catch radius reaction level (some scientific mumbo jumbo I just came up with to describe Green's ability) is better than Megatron's. While he may not have as LARGE a catch radius because of a lesser vertical ability and a smaller frame, his longer arms and his better quickness allows him to separate and close in on balls faster than CJ can- that's an awesome ability to have at Green's size. He's not a tank like Andre Johnson or a physical freak like Megatron, but AJ Green is simply going to produce and has few weaknesses to his game along the lines of a Fitz/Rice type of receiver. When it's all said and done because of his style of play, I think AJ Green goes down as the more prolific receiver than all three of those guys.

Green has a young QB that relies on him to be his go-to receiver... so he's going to get a lot of targets. Green has the ability and his style of play should see him take less hits and be injured less than a Calvin Johnson. Consider that AJ Green has the work ethic you look for as well and he has the best chance of anyone to surpass Randy Moss as the second best WR in NFL history. Just my 2 cents on this issue.
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Jakuvious


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

onepostlegend wrote:
I've never quite understood or appreciated "X has been doing it for years, how could you POSSIBLY say Y is better than X" arguments. One would certainly be remiss to deny the accomplishments of an established veteran, but that in itself shouldn't preclude thoughtful analysis. Let me illustrate my point with a hypothetical:

If Calvin Johnson's 2011 season--1681 yards, 16 TDs, etc.--were his ROOKIE season, what about his being a rookie would have made that season any different from his 2011-as-fifth-season season? Why wouldn't he be the unanimous top receiver after a year like that as a rookie? Because Andre Johnson has been "doing it longer?" No, that's senseless. It's clear that a receiver like Greg Jennings--not to pick on Jennings--belongs nowhere near AJ Green in a comparison of top receivers in the league--that Jennings has been "doing it longer" is no consolation for his having an inferior skill set (especially since Green is outplaying him this season).

Furthermore, it could be the case that AJ Green's 2012 mirrors--or approaches--Calvin Johnson's 2011. But AJ Green at Week 17 won't be much--if at all--better than AJ Green at Week 5 (the largest improvements to a player's skill set are made in the offseason). So, if somebody says they need to "wait and see" whether a player produces at the rate at which he has been producing--especially when this hypothetical person in question is simply waiting until the end of the season--they aren't providing any helpful analysis about the player, they are simply non-committal on an issue in which they probably already have enough evidence to make a committed argument either way.

Arguments like "Calvin Johnson is stronger, faster and better after the catch than AJ Green, therefore he is a better player" could be wrong, but at least it is a valid assessment that takes the skills of each player into consideration as opposed to dismissing one player on the strength of his competitor's resume. Mike Wallace isn't even close to the caliber of receiver AJ Green is. Why are they in the same tier?

What does being in the league a long time allow you to do? Learn how to take care of your body and get away with cheating (basically, that's about it). Neither of those things have a bearing on how we evaluate players (sure, players who take care of their bodies tend to be more durable, but nobody was making an argument about durability in the first place). Granted, being in the league for a long time allows players to hone their skills, as well, but AJ Green's skills are ALREADY comparable to every other elite receiver in the league.

I forgot about the "mental aspect" of the game. One might suggest that a more experienced player has a more cerebral approach to the game than younger players. First, that probably applies less to Wide Receivers than just about any other position, and, second, that has the potential to be fine analysis, but nobody has explained why/how Calvin's experience has given him a mental edge over Green.

With all of that said, Green is not better than Calvin Johnson. I think he can improve and surpass him, though, at some point.


In response to this, I give you examples:
http://www.nfl.com/player/drewbennett/2504418/profile
http://www.nfl.com/player/davidboston/2499719/profile
http://www.nfl.com/player/tommyo'connell/2522365/profile
http://www.nfl.com/player/donmajkowski/2501847/profile
http://www.nfl.com/player/marcusrobinson/2502705/profile
http://www.nfl.com/player/lioneljames/2517380/profile
http://www.nfl.com/player/steveslaton/945/profile

I assume you get the picture. It has less to do with the experienced receiver having done it for so long, and more to do with Green not having done it for very long. Green has had impressive numbers over the first four games of this season. But he hasn't done it over a long enough period of time for us to confidently say that this is how Green is typically going to play over his career. Because the common assumption that young players will improve is just false optimism by fans. Green could post 110 catches, 1600 yards, and 15 TDs this season, and never hit those numbers again over the rest of his career. So while he doesn't need to do it for a long time, there needs to be a larger sample size so we can try to balance out at what level AJ Green actually plays, on average. If he hit those numbers this year, and next year dropped back down to 65 catches, 1000 yards, and 7 TDs, odds are, his general ranking and production would fall somewhere between those two.
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Russell2Bailey


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nixa37 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
In my opinion, his lack of size and the fact that he's no where near as good after the catch as Megatron is an automatic no. Megatron is probably faster too. and stronger.


After this season, Megatron would probably be 1 of very very few receivers I would take over Green however.

In that case I assume you think Megatron is better than Rice ever was too, right? He wasn't nearly as big or fast as Megatron either, so according to you that makes him an automatic no too.

The thing is, there is a lot more to being a great WR than being big and fast in a straight line. Green does quite a few of those things better than CJ. I don't think it is at all crazy to think Green might surpass Calvin. There's a reason he was a consensus top 5 pick (and that the Bengals wouldn't give him up for the offer the Browns accepted from the Falcons.
Obviously you didn't read the rest of my posts after this one.

No. I don't believe Megatron is better than Rice ever was. But by the time he retires, he could put up better numbers as long as he stays healthy and someone like Stafford or better is throwing him the ball. Read all my posts next time.


What makes Jerry Rice better than Megatron is he did everything at an elite level. He didn't the size and speed. Green doesn't do everything at the elite level of Jerry Rice. Jerry Rice never had timed speed but he sure as hell had game speed. For all we know, as long as Megatron stays healthy, the only thing that might/could/possibly seperate Megatron and Rice are Rings by the time Megatron retires. I'm NOT saying it will happen. I'm saying it's possible. Rice was actually very good after the catch because his routes were so disgustingly great that he could make himself more open than any receiver and he had unbelievable moves and game speed. Don't pick out parts for your argument.

The only thing Green MIGHT have over Megatron are hands and that is very very debateable.


The comparasion was about Green and Megatron. And on top of the things I said, Megatron does just about everything else better too.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:

In response to this, I give you examples:
http://www.nfl.com/player/drewbennett/2504418/profile
http://www.nfl.com/player/davidboston/2499719/profile
http://www.nfl.com/player/tommyo'connell/2522365/profile
http://www.nfl.com/player/donmajkowski/2501847/profile
http://www.nfl.com/player/marcusrobinson/2502705/profile
http://www.nfl.com/player/lioneljames/2517380/profile
http://www.nfl.com/player/steveslaton/945/profile

I assume you get the picture. It has less to do with the experienced receiver having done it for so long, and more to do with Green not having done it for very long. Green has had impressive numbers over the first four games of this season. But he hasn't done it over a long enough period of time for us to confidently say that this is how Green is typically going to play over his career. Because the common assumption that young players will improve is just false optimism by fans. Green could post 110 catches, 1600 yards, and 15 TDs this season, and never hit those numbers again over the rest of his career. So while he doesn't need to do it for a long time, there needs to be a larger sample size so we can try to balance out at what level AJ Green actually plays, on average. If he hit those numbers this year, and next year dropped back down to 65 catches, 1000 yards, and 7 TDs, odds are, his general ranking and production would fall somewhere between those two.

I'm not going to say this post is wrong, but it's not right. The names you mentioned.. ALL of them outside of David Boston (I'll talk about him later) are of guys who were one hit wonders. Now if you're simply arguing his first point about a rookie who puts up 1600 yards being considered the greatest WR... well then that's different. But even then it'd be foolish to not place such a receiver.. if he displayed elite ability on the field.. over guys who aren't elite players. AJ Green displayed elite talent as a rookie and has only proven to have gotten BETTER this season. He's not some one hit wonder that we should pause over and not take seriously. His ability over the past 19 games should clearly be enough to put him over the other non-elite WRs in the game at the very least. Greg Jennings is not better than AJ Green because he has a larger sample size.

Now sure, it's too soon to elevate Green over a Megatron, Fitz, or AJ... but I don't think he was necessarily arguing that. He seemed to be arguing putting AJ Green in the elite conversation shouldn't need to wait "x" amount of years... as if we have to wait two years to say he's top 10, another two years before we say he can be elite, and then another 2 years before he's the best WR in the game... tbh people keep inferior talents over many players in rankings for far too long, they wait until it becomes BLATANTLY obvious most of the time, as opposed to judging off of ability and impact.

Also wrong with some of the statistics you've found are the guys like Drew Bennett were already in the league for awhile... weren't productive... then had a HUGE season... that's something you take with a grain of salt. Green dominated in college, dominated as a rookie, and is dominating this season... I don't think he's in a similar situation as a Bennett at all.

Now the comparison to David Boston, I can agree. But Boston WAS a beast back then, there was no doubt about it. He was a dominating WR and could've become one of the greats if not for his durability issues and roid problem. So until we see AJ Green's veins have veins that have muscles... I think its safe to say that after 19 games of a sample, Green is an elite WR that we shouldn't need to wait until AFTER the season to put him there.
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terbo559


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way AJ Green is playing now and how productive and skilled he is at his level, I see him as a top 5 lock at receiver for years to come. Also because he is playing with a good young quarterback that already developed good chemistry with him, and they are only going to get better for years to come.
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RoeKG


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never understood saying, "But Player A is bigger/faster than player B!"

No one thought Matt Jones was a great WR. It's really the same thinking that creates high picks from the Combine.

Rate him for what he is as a WR, and right now he looks as good as anyone. I wouldn't put him ahead of CJ yet due to CJ's body of work, but if Green and CJ keep it up I could see it happening by the end of the year.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bohlmann20 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:

Bohlmann20 wrote:

I'd rather have CJ if I needed to break a screen for a big gain.


Well, you're just flat out wrong.


Well, if that's the case, I'd rather be wrong than right. Very Happy


Well, that's your right but many who saw Rice would argue he's the GOAT YAC WR. He had the ability to bounce off tacklers, run through arm tackles, make guys miss, stay on his feet with contact and run away from defenses.

He was on a whole another level from CJ. CJ's not even one of the elite YAC WRs in today's game imo. Rice was sooooooo much more dangerous with the ball in his hands.
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c0insnap


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larry Fitz and Andre Johnson are better than Calvin Johnson... I'm tired of those two not getting the credit they deserve because Calvin looks better in uniform and had an outstanding year.
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