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The question of Jake Long...
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ProudDolphan47


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't see the need to replace John Jerry...at least at this point! He's actually progressed quite nicely and has lost 35 pounds since the start of camp. He moves well and his strength seems to have finally caught up to his build.

I'd like to think I'd agree with Doc that Martin can easily make the switch to LT in Long's absence, but only if we sign a veteran to cover RT duties. A rookie behind him? Sure. But I was really hoping Lydon Murtha worked out because he'd have been a HELL of a 3rd tackle for us.
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dolphinologist


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProudDolphan47 wrote:
I really don't see the need to replace John Jerry...at least at this point! He's actually progressed quite nicely and has lost 35 pounds since the start of camp. He moves well and his strength seems to have finally caught up to his build.

I'd like to think I'd agree with Dolphinologist that Martin can easily make the switch to LT in Long's absence, but only if we sign a veteran to cover RT duties. A rookie behind him? Sure. But I was really hoping Lydon Murtha worked out because he'd have been a HELL of a 3rd tackle for us.


I know it's confusing at times.
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ProudDolphan47


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
ProudDolphan47 wrote:
I really don't see the need to replace John Jerry...at least at this point! He's actually progressed quite nicely and has lost 35 pounds since the start of camp. He moves well and his strength seems to have finally caught up to his build.

I'd like to think I'd agree with Dolphinologist that Martin can easily make the switch to LT in Long's absence, but only if we sign a veteran to cover RT duties. A rookie behind him? Sure. But I was really hoping Lydon Murtha worked out because he'd have been a HELL of a 3rd tackle for us.


I know it's confusing at times.


Lol...good look Doc. Good look.
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dolphinologist


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProudDolphan47 wrote:
dolphinologist wrote:
ProudDolphan47 wrote:
I really don't see the need to replace John Jerry...at least at this point! He's actually progressed quite nicely and has lost 35 pounds since the start of camp. He moves well and his strength seems to have finally caught up to his build.

I'd like to think I'd agree with Dolphinologist that Martin can easily make the switch to LT in Long's absence, but only if we sign a veteran to cover RT duties. A rookie behind him? Sure. But I was really hoping Lydon Murtha worked out because he'd have been a HELL of a 3rd tackle for us.


I know it's confusing at times.


Lol...good look Doc. Good look.


Laughing Laughing Laughing
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bpastermack


Joined: 17 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProudDolphan47 wrote:
Clutch wrote:
These PFF rankings have Bess (#8WR or #11, I believe) and Hartline below him. Now I have never been a Hartline guy, but seriously??

They also have Reshad Jones as a top 2 safety.

Pouncey is the #2 Center, behind SF's center.

Now I am not sure what the categories are for grading a player. I think Pouncey has done a great job to this point. But Jones as a top 3 safety is a little questionable, and Bess over Hartline is very confusing.

I have heard this PFF ranking system for a while now. Is this the new norm?

Two things: If line play is so important, and ours seems to be doing well. Is it a coincidence that Hartline and Smith are having great years?

Smith used to be a Forum Whipping Boy candidate and now the tune has changed. Is it him or is it the pressure we are getting. Hartline is now due a raise after 5 games? And how much should he get?


A lot of good questions in this post. I'm working from my iPhone at work so I can't post too in depth but I can explain the PFF scoring for you Clutch. PFF gets the all 22 coaches film from every game and grades out every player on every snap of every team on a weekly basis. If you are highly successful at your responsibility on a given a plus. If you miss your assignment, you get a minus. Having no effect on a play yields no score. So after each game they tally your pluses and minuses and you get an overall composite score for the game.


Which means it is more based on being technically sound than actual physical ability. Of course sometimes physical ability can make up for a mistake on a play or two. That's why a guy like Bess is ranked as a top 10 receiver. They aren't saying they would take that guy on their team over all the guys below him. They are simply saying he grades out better. considering he runs precise routes and works very hard, that doesn't surprise me.
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bpastermack


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for Long, my stance is and always has been this...

We as a team are not good enough at any position to not keep a guy if he isn't asking for more than he is worth. We don't yet know what Long's value will be on the open market. We can speculate all we want, but if he continues to struggle this year, he may only be able to get 9 or 10 mil a season. If we could get him for that, then is he worth it? In my opinion, as with any other free agent we have, if he is willing to play for Miami for what we see as his worth, then he should be brought back. If not, then he shouldn't. It's really that simple.
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
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Location: South Carolina
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
ProudDolphan47 wrote:
dolphinologist wrote:
ProudDolphan47 wrote:
I really don't see the need to replace John Jerry...at least at this point! He's actually progressed quite nicely and has lost 35 pounds since the start of camp. He moves well and his strength seems to have finally caught up to his build.

I'd like to think I'd agree with Dolphinologist that Martin can easily make the switch to LT in Long's absence, but only if we sign a veteran to cover RT duties. A rookie behind him? Sure. But I was really hoping Lydon Murtha worked out because he'd have been a HELL of a 3rd tackle for us.


I know it's confusing at times.


Lol...good look Doc. Good look.


Laughing Laughing Laughing


If we replace Incognito with something better, preferably a developmental rookie, and we're able to survive with Martin at LT and another body at RT I'll be happy and won't argue. I don't like putting a rookie out there but it might work if they play well enough. I hate bringing more FA trash just to hold us over.

Jerry is not the liability he once was but it's been his inability to stay in shape and keep up his level of play that's been the problem, not a stretch of a few nice games. He's shown that before. I have no issue bringing him back next year if we're getting a guy who can play 16 games as he has these last 3. He's been solid. But he's still a huge question mark in that regard.

Maybe this coaching staff can keep Jerry in shape. I hope so, it would make this line a lot better not having to replace him immediately if at all.

So...

Martin - Rookie - Pouncey - Jerry - A&M Rookie

I could live with it if the A&M Rookie RT plays the way Martin has thus far.

Smile


Last edited by phinmun on Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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ViolentMonk71


Joined: 06 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bpastermack wrote:
As for Long, my stance is and always has been this...

We as a team are not good enough at any position to not keep a guy if he isn't asking for more than he is worth. We don't yet know what Long's value will be on the open market. We can speculate all we want, but if he continues to struggle this year, he may only be able to get 9 or 10 mil a season. If we could get him for that, then is he worth it? In my opinion, as with any other free agent we have, if he is willing to play for Miami for what we see as his worth, then he should be brought back. If not, then he shouldn't. It's really that simple.


I'm going to agree with this....I'm on the keep Jake Long front (as long as he is paid for his actual production and not his past accolades).

Jake Long is still an elite talent on the O-line...he's stuck with this team (not asked for a trade) even when he was the only one preforming at a high level. While his specific play doesn't perfectly fit the Zone Blocking Scheme the Phins now have in place he's still going to be more productive and have more ability then 95% of the guys we can draft or sign whose physical tools are suited for this scheme. I am also under the belief that Jake Long's work ethic and leadership should be considered. It's not easy to find guys who are leaders, who are willing to speak on behalf of the players to the head coach. The Dolphins will continue to have an influx of youth over the next few years as this team fills needs. Having a respected vet can only help their development....

I do want to reiterate....I don't want the Phins to get into a bidding war with another team for Long's services....he will be great for the team at the right price....if he wants to move on to a team willing to drop some significant coin for him then I bid him farewell and look to address the tackle issue in the draft or free agency.
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ViolentMonk71 wrote:
bpastermack wrote:
As for Long, my stance is and always has been this...

We as a team are not good enough at any position to not keep a guy if he isn't asking for more than he is worth. We don't yet know what Long's value will be on the open market. We can speculate all we want, but if he continues to struggle this year, he may only be able to get 9 or 10 mil a season. If we could get him for that, then is he worth it? In my opinion, as with any other free agent we have, if he is willing to play for Miami for what we see as his worth, then he should be brought back. If not, then he shouldn't. It's really that simple.


I'm going to agree with this....I'm on the keep Jake Long front (as long as he is paid for his actual production and not his past accolades).

Jake Long is still an elite talent on the O-line...he's stuck with this team (not asked for a trade) even when he was the only one preforming at a high level. While his specific play doesn't perfectly fit the Zone Blocking Scheme the Phins now have in place he's still going to be more productive and have more ability then 95% of the guys we can draft or sign whose physical tools are suited for this scheme. I am also under the belief that Jake Long's work ethic and leadership should be considered. It's not easy to find guys who are leaders, who are willing to speak on behalf of the players to the head coach. The Dolphins will continue to have an influx of youth over the next few years as this team fills needs. Having a respected vet can only help their development....

I do want to reiterate....I don't want the Phins to get into a bidding war with another team for Long's services....he will be great for the team at the right price....if he wants to move on to a team willing to drop some significant coin for him then I bid him farewell and look to address the tackle issue in the draft or free agency.



Jake Long will get top-dollar from someone, bank on it happening guys. There are enough teams that need Tackle's that a 4-time Pro Bowl selection in the prime of his career, a former #1 overall pick who's lived up to the hype, won't take a dime less than what he wants.

There are several teams that run the perfect scheme for Jake Long that really need Tackle help. It's whether or not those teams want to drop the coin that's the question. Somebody will though, there's little doubt about that. It could be us or it could be someone else, but it'll be somebody.

Now, we could retain him and finish building the O-line within 1 year which is the argument for us. The other side is that we lose him and try to recover from it. Whatever happens, Jake's going to get paid for what he's proven to be in the NFL.
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bpastermack


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
ViolentMonk71 wrote:
bpastermack wrote:
As for Long, my stance is and always has been this...

We as a team are not good enough at any position to not keep a guy if he isn't asking for more than he is worth. We don't yet know what Long's value will be on the open market. We can speculate all we want, but if he continues to struggle this year, he may only be able to get 9 or 10 mil a season. If we could get him for that, then is he worth it? In my opinion, as with any other free agent we have, if he is willing to play for Miami for what we see as his worth, then he should be brought back. If not, then he shouldn't. It's really that simple.


I'm going to agree with this....I'm on the keep Jake Long front (as long as he is paid for his actual production and not his past accolades).

Jake Long is still an elite talent on the O-line...he's stuck with this team (not asked for a trade) even when he was the only one preforming at a high level. While his specific play doesn't perfectly fit the Zone Blocking Scheme the Phins now have in place he's still going to be more productive and have more ability then 95% of the guys we can draft or sign whose physical tools are suited for this scheme. I am also under the belief that Jake Long's work ethic and leadership should be considered. It's not easy to find guys who are leaders, who are willing to speak on behalf of the players to the head coach. The Dolphins will continue to have an influx of youth over the next few years as this team fills needs. Having a respected vet can only help their development....

I do want to reiterate....I don't want the Phins to get into a bidding war with another team for Long's services....he will be great for the team at the right price....if he wants to move on to a team willing to drop some significant coin for him then I bid him farewell and look to address the tackle issue in the draft or free agency.



Jake Long will get top-dollar from someone, bank on it happening guys. There are enough teams that need Tackle's that a 4-time Pro Bowl selection in the prime of his career, a former #1 overall pick who's lived up to the hype, won't take a dime less than what he wants.

There are several teams that run the perfect scheme for Jake Long that really need Tackle help. It's whether or not those teams want to drop the coin that's the question. Somebody will though, there's little doubt about that. It could be us or it could be someone else, but it'll be somebody.

Now, we could retain him and finish building the O-line within 1 year which is the argument for us. The other side is that we lose him and try to recover from it. Whatever happens, Jake's going to get paid for what he's proven to be in the NFL.


Remember how Scrabble was going to make 17 mil a season and finally after all the fanfare he took the best offer of 12 mil? I think teams know they can't pay Long 15 or 16 mil a season when his injury history is piling up and it's really starting to affect his performance on the field.

I never understood why we let Long keep playing out the rest of a useless season both last year and the year before when he had clear injuries that he was playing through. We should have shut him down for the season, and placed him on IR. In a perfect world this brings down his value to the 12 mil a season range and then he gets fully healthy again during the offseason and plays at the hall of fame level the rest of his contract. But it would be a GIGANTIC risk for a team to plop down any more than 11 or 12 mil on the guy unless he shows a lot of improvement as the season progresses.

I can tell you this much. It won't be the Jets unless they drastically reshape their roster next year, and even then they will have a lot of dead weight. Plus I can't imagine Long going to a clearly rebuilding Jets team with no QB just cause they offer him 15 mil instead of the 12 mil we offer a season. If Pitt has the cap space then maybe I could see it, but they have a rep for being pretty financially savy. Possibly Washington, but they run a ZBS a lot like ours. Chicago? But they have all that money committed to Peppers and Marshall among others.
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xXxHOUSEDxXx


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Jake Long hate has officially gone too far. There was a thread in the general forum asking fans to list the ten best players on their team. Two Dolphins fans both didn't include Jake Long inside their top ten best Dolphins. I don't care if you think he should be traded or not, but leaving him outside your top ten best Dolphins is insane.

Here's the post I just made in that thread so you can see what I'm talking about:

dolphan9954 wrote:
Dolphins:

1. Cameron Wake
2. Mike Pouncey
3. Randy Starks
4. Karlos Dansby
5. Sean Smith
6. Reshad Jones
7. Brian Hartline
8. Devone Bess
9. Reggie Bush
10. Ryan Tannehill

JUST missed:
Paul Soliai, Kevin Burnett, Chris Clemons, Jorvorskie Lane, Jake Long, Anthony Fasano

The last 3 on that list could have gone to any of those players on the just missed list. We don't have much elite talent, but we have a lot of good solid player. That was surprisingly tough.


WaterBear56 wrote:
1. DE Cameron Wake
2. C Mike Pouncey
3. DT Randy Starks
4. LB Karlos Dansby
5. RB Reggie Bush

6. WR Brian Hartline
7. S Reshad Jones
8. CB Sean Smith
9. QB Ryan Tannehill
10. WR Davone Bess


xXxHOUSEDxXx wrote:
Ok, the Jake Long has has officially gone too far. This is insane that you don't even put him in the top ten on the freakin' Miami Dolphins talent depleted roster. You guys are nuts. Unbelievable.

Please allow me to list the real ten best Dolphins, in no particular order.

1. Jake Long
2. Cameron Wake
3. Brandon Fields
4. Sean Smith
5. Davonne Bess
6. Reggie Bush
7. Randy Starks
8. Ryan Tannehill
9. Sean Smith
10. Karlos Dansby

If I were to include an 11th guy it would be John Denney. And yes I'm serious.

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mountainpd


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xXxHOUSEDxXx wrote:
The Jake Long hate has officially gone too far. There was a thread in the general forum asking fans to list the ten best players on their team. Two Dolphins fans both didn't include Jake Long inside their top ten best Dolphins. I don't care if you think he should be traded or not, but leaving him outside your top ten best Dolphins is insane.

Here's the post I just made in that thread so you can see what I'm talking about:

dolphan9954 wrote:
Dolphins:

1. Cameron Wake
2. Mike Pouncey
3. Randy Starks
4. Karlos Dansby
5. Sean Smith
6. Reshad Jones
7. Brian Hartline
8. Devone Bess
9. Reggie Bush
10. Ryan Tannehill

JUST missed:
Paul Soliai, Kevin Burnett, Chris Clemons, Jorvorskie Lane, Jake Long, Anthony Fasano

The last 3 on that list could have gone to any of those players on the just missed list. We don't have much elite talent, but we have a lot of good solid player. That was surprisingly tough.


WaterBear56 wrote:
1. DE Cameron Wake
2. C Mike Pouncey
3. DT Randy Starks
4. LB Karlos Dansby
5. RB Reggie Bush

6. WR Brian Hartline
7. S Reshad Jones
8. CB Sean Smith
9. QB Ryan Tannehill
10. WR Davone Bess


xXxHOUSEDxXx wrote:
Ok, the Jake Long has has officially gone too far. This is insane that you don't even put him in the top ten on the freakin' Miami Dolphins talent depleted roster. You guys are nuts. Unbelievable.

Please allow me to list the real ten best Dolphins, in no particular order.

1. Jake Long
2. Cameron Wake
3. Brandon Fields
4. Sean Smith
5. Davonne Bess
6. Reggie Bush
7. Randy Starks
8. Ryan Tannehill
9. Sean Smith
10. Karlos Dansby

If I were to include an 11th guy it would be John Denney. And yes I'm serious.


I think Paul Soliai needs some more love. and for what its worth my list would be

C Wake
J Long
R Bush
M Pouncey
K Dansby
P Soliai
R Starks
B Fields
S Smith
D Bess

yes RT would hopefully soon make the list but im looking at guys who would be starters at some of the top teams for their respective positions.

Edited without two bushes.
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ProudDolphan47


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reggie Bush must be hella good to get on your list twice Wink
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jake Long's "injury history" will magically disappear when a contract offer from a team who runs MBS becomes available. Jonathan Martin is our LT of the future.
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mountainpd


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProudDolphan47 wrote:
Reggie Bush must be hella good to get on your list twice Wink


Good spot that man. Shows what I know. Long day.
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