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what will it take to fix the line?
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khodder


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
I know you guys are anti-Blockbuster but what's the most you'd give Miami before the trade deadline if he'd agree to sign a 5/60 extension here? Long is only 27 and a top 3 player at his position... If he hits the market we'll likely get outbid. We could play poker if Miami chooses to tag n' trade him but there's no guarantee we'd be favorites to land him if we wait. Strike while the iron's hot says this frustrated fan.


Nothing. I don't buy into the hype that is the LT positon, and I certainly do not want to pay one 12M a year.

Long is NOT a top 3 player at his position, he has been routinely beat this season from what I have seen. Is he a huge upgrade from what we have now, yeah, but his impact this season is going to be little based on the fact he is going to learn the offense, learn all the audibles, learn all the protection calls, learn the tendencies of the other players on the line, learn how to play as a unit. Trading for a offensive lineman right now is not something to do. Especially when you look at the offense we ran weeks one to three and how that was able to succeed without great protection.

Off the top of my head, LT's I would take over Long;

Thomas, Roos, Whitworth, D.Brown, Ferguson and then you have a few guys like Munroe et al on the same level.

Bottom Line - Do we need an upgrade, of course we do. Do we need to pay an elite player, heck no, Left Tackle is not a position that is crucial to winning football in the NFL, as long as you have solid play from that position you are going to be able to have success. I beleive Levi can give us that solid play and the benefits he provides in the running game are huge.

What we need to do is really put some energy into creating a top notch interior OL, you do that and the tackles will have success.
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DirtyDez


Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
I know you guys are anti-Blockbuster but what's the most you'd give Miami before the trade deadline if he'd agree to sign a 5/60 extension here? Long is only 27 and a top 3 player at his position... If he hits the market we'll likely get outbid. We could play poker if Miami chooses to tag n' trade him but there's no guarantee we'd be favorites to land him if we wait. Strike while the iron's hot says this frustrated fan.


Nothing. I don't buy into the hype that is the LT positon, and I certainly do not want to pay one 12M a year.

Long is NOT a top 3 player at his position, he has been routinely beat this season from what I have seen. Is he a huge upgrade from what we have now, yeah, but his impact this season is going to be little based on the fact he is going to learn the offense, learn all the audibles, learn all the protection calls, learn the tendencies of the other players on the line, learn how to play as a unit. Trading for a offensive lineman right now is not something to do. Especially when you look at the offense we ran weeks one to three and how that was able to succeed without great protection.

Off the top of my head, LT's I would take over Long;

Thomas, Roos, Whitworth, D.Brown, Ferguson and then you have a few guys like Munroe et al on the same level.

Bottom Line - Do we need an upgrade, of course we do. Do we need to pay an elite player, heck no, Left Tackle is not a position that is crucial to winning football in the NFL, as long as you have solid play from that position you are going to be able to have success. I beleive Levi can give us that solid play and the benefits he provides in the running game are huge.

What we need to do is really put some energy into creating a top notch interior OL, you do that and the tackles will have success.


Long has struggled because he's a bad fit with Miami's scheme. You don't buy into the hype that is LT. Well watch our LT and realize how important the position is. He IS in fact an elite player. 1st all pro in 2010 and a 4 time Pro Bowler. If something isn't done soon our QB's will be permanently gun-shy or injured. It is not fair to them and when the system fails year after year some drastic needs to happen. There's a 95% chance any tackle we draft will never be as good as Jake Long.
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SuperFlyTNT


Joined: 06 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sure wish Deuce had made the most of his potential - we're paying for him not doing that now Razz.

My question is - Snyder's contract is 5 years with a 5 million signing bonus - can he be cut easily after this season, or maybe we can have enough leverage to force him into a backup role at a reduced salary?

I expected him to be better as a full-time guard even though I didn't like the signing and would have rather they taken DDC or Cordy Glenn in the draft.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
Long has struggled because he's a bad fit with Miami's scheme. You don't buy into the hype that is LT. Well watch our LT and realize how important the position is. He IS in fact an elite player. 1st all pro in 2010 and a 4 time Pro Bowler. If something isn't done soon our QB's will be permanently gun-shy or injured. It is not fair to them and when the system fails year after year some drastic needs to happen. There's a 95% chance any tackle we draft will never be as good as Jake Long.


I don't buy the hype that is elite LT's. How good are the Browns for having Joe Thomas? How good does Michael Roos make the Titans? How great are the Bengals with Whitworth, how great are the Dolphins for having Long.

The LT for the Saints is Jermon Bushrod. The LT for the Giants last year was David Deihl. We got to the Superbowl with Mike Gandy at LT, the Steelers won the Superbowl with Max Starks at LT.

You don't need an elite LT to have an elite passing game or an elite offense and you sure as heck don't need to go out and pay a guy $12M a year to play the position.

You trot a guy out with the below par ability of Batiste at any position on the field he is going to be shown up. I said we need to improve the play at that spot, but the best way to build an offensive line is follow the Saints model, from the inside out.
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DirtyDez


Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Long has struggled because he's a bad fit with Miami's scheme. You don't buy into the hype that is LT. Well watch our LT and realize how important the position is. He IS in fact an elite player. 1st all pro in 2010 and a 4 time Pro Bowler. If something isn't done soon our QB's will be permanently gun-shy or injured. It is not fair to them and when the system fails year after year some drastic needs to happen. There's a 95% chance any tackle we draft will never be as good as Jake Long.


I don't buy the hype that is elite LT's. How good are the Browns for having Joe Thomas? How good does Michael Roos make the Titans? How great are the Bengals with Whitworth, how great are the Dolphins for having Long.

The LT for the Saints is Jermon Bushrod. The LT for the Giants last year was David Deihl. We got to the Superbowl with Mike Gandy at LT, the Steelers won the Superbowl with Max Starks at LT.

You don't need an elite LT to have an elite passing game or an elite offense and you sure as heck don't need to go out and pay a guy $12M a year to play the position.

You trot a guy out with the below par ability of Batiste at any position on the field he is going to be shown up. I said we need to improve the play at that spot, but the best way to build an offensive line is follow the Saints model, from the inside out.


All valid points until the end. We've never drafted OL well, developed OL well or signed OL well. So instead of trading for a legit player we're going to build an offensive line based on what exactly? If a new coaching staff is running the team by that time then i wouldn't have as many doubts. Just hoping this franchise will stumble upon a miracle is getting your hopes up. How many times has this regime said "We're committing to the OL"? Too many!
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shawn


Joined: 02 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Long has struggled because he's a bad fit with Miami's scheme. You don't buy into the hype that is LT. Well watch our LT and realize how important the position is. He IS in fact an elite player. 1st all pro in 2010 and a 4 time Pro Bowler. If something isn't done soon our QB's will be permanently gun-shy or injured. It is not fair to them and when the system fails year after year some drastic needs to happen. There's a 95% chance any tackle we draft will never be as good as Jake Long.


I don't buy the hype that is elite LT's. How good are the Browns for having Joe Thomas? How good does Michael Roos make the Titans? How great are the Bengals with Whitworth, how great are the Dolphins for having Long.

The LT for the Saints is Jermon Bushrod. The LT for the Giants last year was David Deihl. We got to the Superbowl with Mike Gandy at LT, the Steelers won the Superbowl with Max Starks at LT.

You don't need an elite LT to have an elite passing game or an elite offense and you sure as heck don't need to go out and pay a guy $12M a year to play the position.

You trot a guy out with the below par ability of Batiste at any position on the field he is going to be shown up. I said we need to improve the play at that spot, but the best way to build an offensive line is follow the Saints model, from the inside out.


and whats their record?

just kidding, I know what point you were trying to make.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
All valid points until the end. We've never drafted OL well, developed OL well or signed OL well. So instead of trading for a legit player we're going to build an offensive line based on what exactly? If a new coaching staff is running the team by that time then i wouldn't have as many doubts. Just hoping this franchise will stumble upon a miracle is getting your hopes up. How many times has this regime said "We're committing to the OL"? Too many!


We have never drafted OL at all, outside Levi and then this year when we went heavy late. So you cannot really say we have not drafted well, we have just not drafted at all. We have tried to go the veteran FA route and that has been nothing but a failure for us so we need to try another route and it looks like it started this year with the heavy third day.

These are the guys that Grimm needs to prove his worth with, Kelemete and Massie, but even if they don't succeed you can never put all the blame on one person, especially a coach.

I think the way forward in the NFL is the inside out method. Even if your tackles get beaten off the edge you have a pocket to step into. That pocket to step into is the key and you can have two all world tackles, the best LT and best RT to ever play in the league, but if you are giving up interior pressure your QB is going to be running all over the place.
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Yibbyl


Joined: 21 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
We have never drafted OL at all, outside Levi and then this year when we went heavy late. So you cannot really say we have not drafted well, we have just not drafted at all. We have tried to go the veteran FA route and that has been nothing but a failure for us so we need to try another route and it looks like it started this year with the heavy third day.

These are the guys that Grimm needs to prove his worth with, Kelemete and Massie, but even if they don't succeed you can never put all the blame on one person, especially a coach.

I think the way forward in the NFL is the inside out method. Even if your tackles get beaten off the edge you have a pocket to step into. That pocket to step into is the key and you can have two all world tackles, the best LT and best RT to ever play in the league, but if you are giving up interior pressure your QB is going to be running all over the place.

Been thinking about this inside-out method of building a quality OL and decided to look at the Bills, since they had experienced a relatively quick turnaround in their OL play.

Between 2003-2008, the Bills only drafted OL during rounds 5-7, except 2007, where not one single lineman was taken! We did hire a good OL coach, Sean Kugler, in 2007 who took the rag-tag bunch and made them somewhat respectable, I guess. At the very least, they improved their play after he arrived. Nevertheless, he could only do so much with that level of talent and had to get creative. He turned UFA Jason Peters into a Pro Bowl LT after Peters failed to make an impact as a TE. Later, he coached up former 7th round pick Demetrius Bell into a pretty decent starting LT as well.

In 2009, the team decided to get serious about helping their OL coach out and making the OL a true strength of the team. That year, they spent 2 early picks on the OL...1st - #28 for C Eric Wood and 2nd - #51 for LG Andy Levitre. Notice the inside location of those draft targets? Peters was gone after the `08 season, leaving a huge hole at LT (Bell hadn't emerged yet) and they still went inside! I'm now positive that was no accident. Tackles who were still available at the time of our picks (1-11, 1-28, 2-42, & 2-51) and drafted in the 1st 2 rounds included: Michael Oher, Eben Britton, Max Unger, Phil Loadholt, Sebastian Vollmer, and William Beatty. Regardless how you may feel about those guys now, back then they were talked about in positive terms.

The Steelers hired Kugler away before the 2010 season and we brought in another quality OL coach, Joe D’Alessandris. Our right side of the OL was still not very strong and since we couldn't realistically fill all of our OL with high round draft picks due to so many critical needs elsewhere, we signed who we could. We got former Steelers 3rd round pick RG Kraig Urbik off waivers and former Broncos UFA RT Erik Pears. These 2 responded well to D’Alessandris' coaching and have proven to be solid players on the OL.

Our starting OL for the 2011 season was:

LT Bell (7th round pick) - LG Levitre (2nd) - C Wood (1st) - RG Urbik (3rd) - RT Pears (UFA).

It was our 1st year with a truly standout OL. It took us until the start of the 3rd season to reach that level of play after that initial early round splash in `09, so some patience is obviously needed. However, this may add some meat to the theory of targeting the interior early and letting decent fringe players handle the outside.

For the curious, the Bills OL you guys faced yesterday still was predominantly high draft picks even with the injuries we've had this year...

LT Hairston (4th) - LG Levitre (2nd) - C Wood (1st) - RG Rinehart (3rd) - RT Pears (UFA).

I think the Cards' FO must start investing some early round picks on the OL for Grimm and I think at this point, how can they not?!? I mean, I can't imagine you can go anywhere in the valley and not hear about how much this OL is struggling. It certainly can't be a surprise anymore. With an inside-out focus on developing the OL and after watching some vids, I'd go after Barret Jones or Chance Warmack...both if I thought we could pull it off! Laughing
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DJ_Fka


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trade up or down could happen

Really we need to go OL first 3 rounds, wont happen but should

We need depth and talent infusion
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JohnnyV


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What will it take to fix this line?

About two more off seasons of drafts and free agency...

After this season, I'd do a complete overhaul other than Massie. Goes a rookie and he's improving according to Whiz.

Somers made the point in his most recent chat that Levi would be back next year. That sounds terrible.

Regardless, the interrior oline could use three knew starts IMO.
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Yibbyl


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnnyV wrote:
What will it take to fix this line?

About two more off seasons of drafts and free agency...

After this season, I'd do a complete overhaul other than Massie. Goes a rookie and he's improving according to Whiz.

Somers made the point in his most recent chat that Levi would be back next year. That sounds terrible.

Regardless, the interrior oline could use three knew starts IMO.

I don't know that I agree with you about Levi. I think he has enough skills to keep, though I'd probably give serious consideration to moving him inside.
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SuperFlyTNT


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnnyV wrote:
What will it take to fix this line?

About two more off seasons of drafts and free agency...

After this season, I'd do a complete overhaul other than Massie. Goes a rookie and he's improving according to Whiz.

Somers made the point in his most recent chat that Levi would be back next year. That sounds terrible.

Regardless, the interrior oline could use three knew starts IMO.


Whoa there - you just can't go doing wholesale replacement of any big group like the line on a football team and expect it to get better soon. Plus money wise that just doesn't work. Three players were drafted this year, I hope more will be drafted next year - a couple of high picks on the interior line sounds great if the value is there. If the current players can't compete they will be gone when better players beat them out. I'm personally hoping someone beats Adam Snyder out very soon because he's been terrible and even worse is a terrible value for the price of his contract.

Now, if the players aren't developing like they should - or it looks like competition isn't putting the best players on the field then I think a coaching change is necessary. I just can't tell if that's the case with this unit given the lack of talent invested.

Also, you're worried about Levi coming back? It just amazes me that anyone would say that at this point with how badly we're missing him - he was never a great pass-blocking tackle, but serviceable / better than Batiste. However, he was a solid run-blocking tackle - and that's showing more now than ever.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see a reason to not keep Daryn Colledge. He's a perfectly capable NFL starter.
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DJ_Fka


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bears released Chris Williams today

He has to be better than our current LT

Do we sign him?
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DJ_Fka wrote:
Bears released Chris Williams today

He has to be better than our current LT

Do we sign him?


I'm sure he's better but he's definitely not good. Pretty bad bust over there.

I'd bring him for a tryout, see what he's got.
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