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what will it take to fix the line?
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SuperFlyTNT


Joined: 07 Feb 2011
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Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
I don't see a reason to not keep Daryn Colledge. He's a perfectly capable NFL starter.


I like Daryn in our system also - more when he's got capable guys around him. Lyle has been decent, but not stellar.

I think it would be ideal need-wise if they drafted a guard and a tackle with a couple of high picks - but who knows where the value is going to be. If I were betting on how many OL we choose with our top three picks next year I would bet on one - but zero is a perfectly legit possibility again.
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JohnnyV


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pro Football Focus‏@PFF

The Buffalo O-line has allowed a league best 31 total pressures (sk, hits, hurries). AZ league worst at a mind-bending 112 already
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DirtyDez


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy how good Buffalo's OL has performed. It starts at the top.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
Crazy how good Buffalo's OL has performed. It starts at the top.


While true, I do feel the need to point out the elephant in the room. They won 6 games last year, we won 8. They have 3 wins, we have 4. And the "NFC West sucks" thing doesn't play anymore.

I'd love to have that line, Levitre and Wood in particular. That said, I'd bet good money they'd love to have our D. We allowed 18 points to the Patriots at a game played IN New England. The Bills just recently allowed 52 points to the Patriots, at a game played in Buffalo. It's all relative.
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JohnnyV


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Crazy how good Buffalo's OL has performed. It starts at the top.


While true, I do feel the need to point out the elephant in the room. They won 6 games last year, we won 8. They have 3 wins, we have 4. And the "NFC West sucks" thing doesn't play anymore.

I'd love to have that line, Levitre and Wood in particular. That said, I'd bet good money they'd love to have our D. We allowed 18 points to the Patriots at a game played IN New England. The Bills just recently allowed 52 points to the Patriots, at a game played in Buffalo. It's all relative.


There's a team that has done a real nice job drafting interior linemen early that have panned out and taking guys like Jason Peters and Demetrius Bell in LATE (like 6th and 7th late) and making them into Pro Bowl type talent.

Looks like they were on a simliar track with Cordy Glenn, although he was a second rounder.

Leaves hope that we don't need to take a Top 5 OT to have a quality LT/RT.

Very impressive Buffalo. None of those guys were top 25 picks.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnnyV wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Crazy how good Buffalo's OL has performed. It starts at the top.


While true, I do feel the need to point out the elephant in the room. They won 6 games last year, we won 8. They have 3 wins, we have 4. And the "NFC West sucks" thing doesn't play anymore.

I'd love to have that line, Levitre and Wood in particular. That said, I'd bet good money they'd love to have our D. We allowed 18 points to the Patriots at a game played IN New England. The Bills just recently allowed 52 points to the Patriots, at a game played in Buffalo. It's all relative.


There's a team that has done a real nice job drafting interior linemen early that have panned out and taking guys like Jason Peters and Demetrius Bell in LATE (like 6th and 7th late) and making them into Pro Bowl type talent.

Looks like they were on a simliar track with Cordy Glenn, although he was a second rounder.

Leaves hope that we don't need to take a Top 5 OT to have a quality LT/RT.

Very impressive Buffalo. None of those guys were top 25 picks.


Eric Wood went 28th. He's pretty damn good, at least I think he is. Levitre and Urbik (Even though Urbik was actually drafted by the Steelers and subsequently released) went in the 2nd and 3rd rounds respectively. Buffalo's doing what Khodder has talked about doing here. Building their interior line with prime talent. If you can build a strong interior, your tackles don't even have to be that good in all reality. If they're beat off the edge it doesn't matter in a lot of cases. Your interior players will have won their battles and all your QB has to do is step up in the pocket and avoid the edge.

That's arguably the biggest reason we're on this pace, a pace we weren't on last year. Snyder has been awful and Lyle's regressed. If/when the Buffalo tackles get beat, Fitzpatrick slides up in the pocket and avoids the rush. If/when Batiste or Massie get beat, Kolb and Skelton have nowhere to go and take the sacks.
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JohnnyV


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
JohnnyV wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Crazy how good Buffalo's OL has performed. It starts at the top.


While true, I do feel the need to point out the elephant in the room. They won 6 games last year, we won 8. They have 3 wins, we have 4. And the "NFC West sucks" thing doesn't play anymore.

I'd love to have that line, Levitre and Wood in particular. That said, I'd bet good money they'd love to have our D. We allowed 18 points to the Patriots at a game played IN New England. The Bills just recently allowed 52 points to the Patriots, at a game played in Buffalo. It's all relative.


There's a team that has done a real nice job drafting interior linemen early that have panned out and taking guys like Jason Peters and Demetrius Bell in LATE (like 6th and 7th late) and making them into Pro Bowl type talent.

Looks like they were on a simliar track with Cordy Glenn, although he was a second rounder.

Leaves hope that we don't need to take a Top 5 OT to have a quality LT/RT.

Very impressive Buffalo. None of those guys were top 25 picks.


Eric Wood went 28th. He's pretty damn good, at least I think he is. Levitre and Urbik (Even though Urbik was actually drafted by the Steelers and subsequently released) went in the 2nd and 3rd rounds respectively. Buffalo's doing what Khodder has talked about doing here. Building their interior line with prime talent. If you can build a strong interior, your tackles don't even have to be that good in all reality. If they're beat off the edge it doesn't matter in a lot of cases. Your interior players will have won their battles and all your QB has to do is step up in the pocket and avoid the edge.

That's arguably the biggest reason we're on this pace, a pace we weren't on last year. Snyder has been awful and Lyle's regressed. If/when the Buffalo tackles get beat, Fitzpatrick slides up in the pocket and avoids the rush. If/when Batiste or Massie get beat, Kolb and Skelton have nowhere to go and take the sacks.


Good stuff Champ. I'm all for improving the interrior line and fully wanted David DeCastro over a lesser talent like Reiff last April.

Now I think I'd have either over Floyd. Nothing against Michael, he could break loose and have a terrific career but he's hampered by our poor offense and honestly I think Byrd could have had the same impact Floyd has had thus far.

Again, VERY small sample size but with Roberts coming along, I think WR could have been put off another year.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Roberts had played last year the way he is currently playing this year, I'd have been irrate with us taking Floyd over Reiff and DDC. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. We had trouble at WR last year (Early was an UFA last offseason and we were shaky on bringing him back remember) and we had trouble on the OL. We could only pick 1 player at 13 and we went with the WR. I can't fault our guys for that. The OL is terrible and it's hurting us but if we didn't take a WR last year (And Roberts didn't improve) we'd all be talking about taking 1 this year.

You said it best in all honesty (Although your point was about the OL whereas mine pertains to the offense as a whole), this fix is gonna likely take 2 more offseasons and a lot more new players. If Floyd develops the way I think he can, that'll be 1 more position we can check off the list.
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Yibbyl


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Crazy how good Buffalo's OL has performed. It starts at the top.


While true, I do feel the need to point out the elephant in the room. They won 6 games last year, we won 8. They have 3 wins, we have 4. And the "NFC West sucks" thing doesn't play anymore.

I'd love to have that line, Levitre and Wood in particular. That said, I'd bet good money they'd love to have our D. We allowed 18 points to the Patriots at a game played IN New England. The Bills just recently allowed 52 points to the Patriots, at a game played in Buffalo. It's all relative.

Elephant was result of 2 things: 1) because the Cards' defense was a better D than the Bills offense was an O and 2) we were decimated by injuries and it exposed our lack of depth in several key positions. Still, it's true that no Bills fan would take that bet, cuz you'd win every single day and twice on Sundays! Most would probably want Horton to come along with the players though...a lot a bad feelings towards Wannstedt right now. I was one of them. Your comments in another thread about stepping back and looking at all the possible problems instead of fixating on blaming one individual had an effect on me. I'm now interested in seeing what Wannstedt's D would look like if we could upgrade the SLB & MLB positions. We all thought that fixing the DL was all we needed to do to improve last year's terrible D, but it turns out the whole front 7 was seriously lacking.

Though I'm definitely giving him another chance, I'm still a little leery of Wanny, because he frustrated me by refusing to get away from the nickel vs. NE for the 1st 3 qtrs. He feared Gronk & Welker working over the intermediate zones and tried to cover them. BB took those repeated opportunities to run the ball down our throat. It was humiliating. I couldn't figure out why he didn't go to the base 4-3 earlier or at least move Barnett to the weak side and bring in Moats or Bradham on the strong in the nickel. That would have shortened up those running plays. He didn't change a thing until the 4th, when BB was just going to sit on the huge lead and run time off the clock anyway...suddenly we play the 4-3! Rolling Eyes Drives me nuts when a coach doesn't adapt the things that aren't working! Same beef I've had with some of the Cards' offensive playcalling this season.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually think the Bills are a pretty good example of the "You, you're the problem" mentality. I saw a LOT of Bills fans who said, "Now that we've got Mario, everything will change". You guys had/have deeply rooted problems on defense. 1 player, no matter how good, wasn't going to change that.

Mario's a start. He's a heullva start actually but just a start nonetheless. You gotta keep forward, keep adding talented, keep adjusting, keep evaluating ways to keep better. That's what you guys need to do defensively and that's what we need to do offensively. 1-2 OL isn't going to fix our deeply rooted problems. It's just a start (Or in our case, Floyd is a start).
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DirtyDez


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
If Roberts had played last year the way he is currently playing this year, I'd have been irrate with us taking Floyd over Reiff and DDC. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. We had trouble at WR last year (Early was an UFA last offseason and we were shaky on bringing him back remember) and we had trouble on the OL. We could only pick 1 player at 13 and we went with the WR. I can't fault our guys for that. The OL is terrible and it's hurting us but if we didn't take a WR last year (And Roberts didn't improve) we'd all be talking about taking 1 this year.


Kinda OT but do you think Roberts would have been as impressive this year if we didn't take Floyd? Obviously citing he could have been motivated by the selection. Or maybe he's just developing and getting comfortable... Id.k
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khodder


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two things I have to say here;

1 - I beleive it used to be in the signature of veteran Dolphins poster Mercury22 and it was something to the effect of;

Quote:
To accurately gauge the ability and impact of any one player on the football field you must first account for the actions and abilities of the other 21 players on the field.


2 - The sum of the peices is always greater than any individual.

Offensive Line play and with reference to Bufflao, defensive play in football are all about how the unit performs, not each individual.

On the OL you can have four players make perfect blocks, but if the fifth misses you can end up with a QB in the dirt. Same thing on defense, you can have 10 players do their job to perfection, but if the 11th misses you end up with a big play.

No one individual was ever going to solve the defensive woes of Buffalo, just like no one offensive lineman is going to improve our entire OL. We need to upgrade across the board except for possibly LG and C (Hopefully putting better talent around Lyle means he elvates back to the level he has played at in the past). We can acheive two with development of Massie and the arrival back from injury of Levi Brown.

To me that speaks to RG as the biggest issue in front of use right now. From then we can look at the LT position going forward.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
If Roberts had played last year the way he is currently playing this year, I'd have been irrate with us taking Floyd over Reiff and DDC. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. We had trouble at WR last year (Early was an UFA last offseason and we were shaky on bringing him back remember) and we had trouble on the OL. We could only pick 1 player at 13 and we went with the WR. I can't fault our guys for that. The OL is terrible and it's hurting us but if we didn't take a WR last year (And Roberts didn't improve) we'd all be talking about taking 1 this year.


Kinda OT but do you think Roberts would have been as impressive this year if we didn't take Floyd? Obviously citing he could have been motivated by the selection. Or maybe he's just developing and getting comfortable... Id.k


Good question. Couldn't really say either way but it wouldn't surprise me if it gave Andre a little extra push.
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DirtyDez


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FA's after this season... Anyone who could play a solid LT?

Will Svitek - ATL
Ramon Harewood BAL (R)
Bryant McKinney BAL
Colin Brown BUF (R)
Cornell Green BUF
Jeff Otah - CAR
Patrick Mannelly CHI
Frank Omiyale CHI
Chris Williams CHI
Tony Pashos CLE
Ryan Clady DEN
Gosder Cherilus DET
Jason Fox DET (R)
Chad Clifton GB
Rashad Butler HOU
Jeff Linkenbach IND (R)
Eben Britton JAC
Kevin Haslam JAC (R)
Brandon Albert KC
Jake Long MIA
Phil Loadholt MIN
Sebastian Vollmer NE
Jermon Bushrod NO

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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

5-6 legitimate LT's there. Question is whether or not any of them ACTUALLY hit the open market.
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