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Mark Dominik: Has he really been that good?
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ravishingone


Joined: 07 Jan 2007
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Location: Leola
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I blame the organizational plan after the firing of Gruden. Dom was a part of the plan, but I highly doubt the sole architect. The assembling of the original staff beyond bad. To make matters worse, take your first time head coach at any level and allow him to assume two responsibilities - head coach and defensive coordinator. Whoever made that decision needed to be fired.

I don't get into hits or misses on drafting because all teams will not draft perfectly. However, the ineptitude of the previous coaching staff has clearly stunted some of the development of previous draftees over the last three years.
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YoungBucs15


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get that Dom is to blame for some of the moves. But do we think it's a coincidence that we look at the this draft to be more of a solid draft in regards to the later round. To me that would reflect more on Schiano and actually know how to evaluate talent. Rah was never asked to look at players and grade their talent, yeah he knew what it took to be a CB but in honesty he failed at that as well. To me the poor draft are 50% Rah and 50% Dom. Dom is no Jerry Jones and takes whoever he wants.

When it looks like his handcuffs were off for FA did he not go out and get the players that we all said would be best for our team, Wright is still questionable but still fit our needs.

I don't think you also grade a GM on would've/could've, just the most annoying argument in football. If that's the case all GM's fail. What the GM for the Jets and Redskins are what i considered fail for the longest time. Draft is a crap shoot. But when you are trading for Tebow while your supposed Franchise QB is there is a Fail. Constantly all your cap space on any FA on the market, setting your team up for Cap Hell is a Fail and last time I checked we are in neither. The players that were listed that were horrible signings or extensions, isn't it a coincidence that we took next to 0% cap hit on any of those players. Essentially giving them a prove it contract that wouldn't hurt the club and when they failed they were out. Just like Black's contract, i believe if he flopped after this year we would cost us nothing if he was release. Same with Trueblood's contract.

Dom is far from failing but hasn't exactly stood out as well. Dom is but one voice when it comes to draft day so to blame it solely on him is a little ridiculous. Last i checked we blame Gaines Adams on Gruden and Allen, not just Allen.
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REDandPEWTER


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3-13 , 10-6 , 4-12. Sure part of it is the staff but the failure to perform on the field is also part of the problem. Usually when you clean house on the coaching staff you normally fire the gm too.

It's the way it goes in the nfl. Pioli in KC is on the hotseat bc he screwed up on the Matt Cassell project.
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bucstopshere


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

man I had this all typed out, great response and I left my work computer and it reset...But I think I remember almost everything word for word so here we go again (deep breath lol)

Let me play devils advocate on alot of these things. First lets start with draft picks. I agree with what alot of people say, you cant play the man we should have picked him, or him. There's a big reason why the NFL has a lot of paradoy to it and it's because no one is perfect. There is a turnover of playoff teams every year, and besides the teams that have outstanding GM's or should I say QB's that doesnt change.

Without getting into an entire debate about Freeman, as I still think he's the right guy, Dominik's entire career will be judged off of Free. After 2010 he looked like a pure genuis. Remember that it was rumored that Min, Den and another unnamed team was ready to take Freeman at the 17th spot. He moved up, secured our franchise for a late round pick.

Take a step back and think about what team actually sat at 17 and what they did to go get their franchise, who frankly has maybe had one or two better performances than Freeman. The Jets gave up a BOATLOAD and now you see the effects. They haven't been able to effectively draft good depth on that team and it's hurt them the past two years.

So with that in mind think about what he did to give the Buccaneers something they have NEVER had....Like I said, I think Free will end up working out, I blame a lot on him trying to be something he's not. If they can get him on the move I think we'll see the guy that we fell in love with. It's weird but his accuracy is almost better when he's on the move. So like I said without getting into the Freeman debate in here, it was the right move to do.

The one pick that I have had a problem with and could never justify was Brian Price. He wasnt fit to ever play the nose tackle position, and while I wish him the best I never liked the pick. I even looked back at my posts from here on that pick and I was very upset we didn't go with Dunlap. We had nothing at the end position and still didnt when the draft was over.

Dunlap would have been an impact player on the edge and maybe changed the draft of 2011 when we doubled up on the end position. Still even with Dunlap i wouldnt have changed a thing about the 2011 draft. Dominck really hit it right with the first three picks. Sadly we have been struck by the injury bug, but I think Clayborn, Bowers and Foster will be big parts of this defense in 2013 and much much further.

Than look at this past year, he manueved around the draft like someone playing madden. While we portrayed that Claiborne was going to be our pick, no one expected Barron and he has been great so far. We add in Martin, who has been hurt by play calling, been an everydown back that has shown everything we could want in a back. The best thing he did was go and get Lavonte David.

I know he was one of those guys that everyone around here saw and thought he'd be a rock star here. When we made the move and drafted him, it might have been the happeist I've ever been as a Bucs fan on draft day. He was the guy before the draft that I thought fit us perfect and so far he has.

Think about our drafts the past two years and how we feel when they are finished. I feel like we've made the right moves for the majority.

Next lets move to free agency....

To me the only "bust" signing of Dom's career was Ward. We latched on to something desperate because of the Caddy situation. I didnt think we needed to, as I thought Graham was always underapreciated by the coaching staff. Clayton hurt but we actually didnt give him that much money. His hands were kind of tied, because as we know how the Glazers tied his hands with what they actually give.

Which brings me to my next point on how fantastic he did this past offseason. The one thing I think alot of you forget is how much of a genius he is when it comes to contracts and numbers. Step back and think about this, the Glazers NEVER give any money for signing bonuses, so when he's pitching to free agents he's already down on his cards. While we do counter back by giving more guarenteed money across the contract, most atheletes want to be rewarded NOW for their play. I mean did any of you truly think we would honestly land Vincent Jackson and Carl Nicks? I mean we all dreamed sure, but still thinking about it now, and doing it WITHOUT a single dollar on the day of the signing?

Mind Blowing....

Then the next thing I want you guys to consider is the rest of the division and how he stacks up...

First we'll start with the New Orleans Saints. First rounders havent been "busts" but have far from lived up to their potential, especially former heisman Mark Ingram. I think Ingram will have a good career when he LEAVES new orleans, but is a running back that needs to be fed the ball so he can find his grove, something that doesnt even remotely match the Saints philoshophy. Next think about who they have drafted that are big time contributors on the team RIGHT now. Marcus Colston, an absolute steal (and someone Raheem jumped on the table for tampa for back then as a lowly db coach) and Jimmy Graham, well you know....But besides that do you feel like they have out drafted us? Because I dont...Minus them falling into the greatest scenario and Drew Brees selecting New Orleans over Miami they haven't blown you away with signings either.

Next think about the Falcons and who they have drafted. Sure they hit homeruns on the outside, figuratively and literally. Roddy has been a stud and Julio looks to be the next Megatron. Ryan has developed into a top qb so credit due there. But outside of those 3 picks? It gets real iffy. The best thing they did was trade away all those picks for Julio so they cant have more draft misses. He has had some good late round finds, but in the spot where you need to hit homeruns he's been better off trading those picks to bolster one, or get Tony Gonzalez. Misses bad on early lineman hurt too much too me, but still they are 5-0 for the first time ever, so give credit where its due, and that's for taking Matt Ryan and rebulding this franchise.

Finally Carolina...Hurney has been pretty good for the most part on hitting on first round picks but after that...it gets bad. For our terrible pick of Dexter Jackson, they have Armanti Edwards, who costed them a 3rd and future second. What about Jimmy Clausen and Everette Brown. That big time trade up for Otah? Yes he played great for about a season and a half, but is no not even on an NFL roster. Cam looked great last year, but this year looks selfish and self centered. They have drafted OK, but still, havent had one of those drafts that blew me away like 2012 and 2011 did w/me for the bucs


what im trying to say, and I hope you stayed with me through this is that he really is one of the better GM's in the league. We have been a budget squad for years and he scrapped and found young, cheap talent. For now his fate rests on Freeman, but even if he doesnt pan out, I still think Dominik has done a fantastic job with the cards he's been dealt.
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bucstopshere


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i write that, and nothing from any of you?! Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad
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5nick5


Joined: 25 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucstopshere wrote:
i write that, and nothing from any of you?! Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad


I'll give you some feedback! I never at looked at Dominik in that light before. I never thought he was a bad GM, just unlucky. But now I think of him as a pretty good GM. He's had to work around the Glazers restrictions to bring in top-end talent, and hasn't done too bad.
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YoungBucs15


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucstopshere wrote:
i write that, and nothing from any of you?! Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad


I'm on the same page as you.
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bucstopshere


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YoungBucs15 wrote:
bucstopshere wrote:
i write that, and nothing from any of you?! Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad


I'm on the same page as you.


So many people want to jump on the wrongs without looking at the bigger picture....I hope some more of the board reads that post
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RB4TampaBay


Joined: 17 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BSH,

On some of these things I agree with you. On some others.....I don't know, I'm still thinking. Confused And if this goes on too long...it starts to hurt. Laughing
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REDandPEWTER


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucstopshere,

You make valid points yes. But you can't just look at the 2012 off-season and say he's done a very good job. Sure, drafting a QB in the first round is a good move. I liked Freeman coming out, but then again, I'm only a fan. Many scouts and analysts had grades ranging from mid first to 3rd round on him due to inconsistancy (apparently, still has carried over).

Look at his past drafts:
2009: Freeman: Had a good year in 2010, but beat up on weaker teams. Struggled against good defenses. The rest explains for itself. Huge question mark.
-Kellen Winslow trade: Ehh it could go either way. Not a great move at all, nor good. But also not horrible. Grade it 5/10.
-Roy Miller: Showing decent play now, but Dominik still gets the question about passing on Mike Wallace and him and scouts said he reminded them of Dexter Jackson. Apparently, that didn't work out.
- Kyle Moore: Bust. Out of the league.
- Xavier Fulton: Out of the league.
- EJ Biggers: Not very good, somehow still is on our roster.
- Sammie Stroughter: Solid Spec. Teams contributor, but is never healthy.

2010:
- McCoy: Beast, ELITE DT when he's on the field. Needs to finish a full season but his best pick possibly so far.
- Price: Bust. Out of the league.
- Benn: Bust. Barely sees the field.
- Lewis: Bust. 6 CB. Probably should have been cut.
- Mike Williams: Good Pick. Very good #1 WR. Nice find. Give him credit for that.
- Brent Bowden: Bust out of the league.
-Cody Grimm: Not very good. Solid Special teams guy. Thats it.
- Dekota Watson: Solid backup and great special teams player. Could eventually start at SLB.
- Erik Lorig: Converted to FB, but hasn't been that good. Not his position.

2011:
-Clayborn: Love his motor, but still haven't seen the truely consistant pass rusher out of him that I wanted to see. Great in the run defense.
-Bowers: Showed flashes, but injuries have outdone his production/playing time.
-Foster: Steal. Good pick. Great pick.
-Stocker: we traded for him and he's been a bust so far.
-Ahmad Black: Undersized but has good ball skills. Still don't know if he can be a starter but def. solid 3rd Safety.
- Allen Bradford: Bust. Out of the league.
-Anthony Gaitor: ?????? Hasn't really played in an NFL game.
-Daniel Hardy: Out of the league.

Lets not forget the failure in FA all 3 of those years, especially in 2009 when no signing really worked out.

He did a great job in adding Nicks and Jackson. Couild have gotten Wright at a better deal, but Wright is a solid contributor, but our secondary is still last in the NFL.

So, I rate this here: 2009 and 2010 are not very good, conisdering 2010, you had 4 picks in the top 67. And you missed on 3 of them.

2011 is still suspect and 2012 draft class is one I really like, but still too soon to judge, but David and Barron look like studs.
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YoungBucs15


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So i thought i would run through some other info out there. I would guess that most would have Newsome-Ravens, Thompson-Packers, Reese-Giants and Colbert-Steelers in their say top 5 of the best GM's. So I went through their drafts as well. Here's going back to 2009 since that's when we back on ours.

Ravens 21 Total Picks

2009
Ladarius Webb
2010
Terrence Cody
Ed Dickson
Dennis Pitta
2011
Jimmy Smith
Torrey Smith
Pernell McPhee

Giants 24 Total Picks

2009
Hakeem Nicks
Andre Brown
2010
Jason Pierre-Paul
Linval Joesph
2011

Steelers 26 Total Picks

2009
Mike Wallace
2010
Maurkice Pouncey
Antonio Brown
2011

Packers 25 Total Picks

2009
BJ Raji
Clay Matthews
2010
Morgan Burnett
2011
Randall Cobb

Those would just be the ones that stand out to me. I understand these top clubs have their Franchise QB except maybe the Raven's. But it looks like they do. I don't see any of these teams claiming that their GM is to blame for anything right now. I just see that when we start losing we try to look at things and try to blame it on certain people. To me even though this team is still losing, people are actually competitive, which we were not last year. This is year 1 in our rebuilding effort as far as i'm concerned. If you go look in the General thread on who the least talented team is, we didn't get a single mention last time i checked.

Most could look at our front 7 and see that have the potential to become one of the best in the league and last time i checked Dom brought in all of that outside Black. I just think people enjoy being negative and don't look at the whole picture.
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deuces22wild


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YoungBucs15 wrote:
So i thought i would run through some other info out there. I would guess that most would have Newsome-Ravens, Thompson-Packers, Reese-Giants and Colbert-Steelers in their say top 5 of the best GM's. So I went through their drafts as well. Here's going back to 2009 since that's when we back on ours.

Ravens 21 Total Picks

2009
Ladarius Webb
2010
Terrence Cody
Ed Dickson
Dennis Pitta
2011
Jimmy Smith
Torrey Smith
Pernell McPhee

Giants 24 Total Picks

2009
Hakeem Nicks
Andre Brown
2010
Jason Pierre-Paul
Linval Joesph
2011

Steelers 26 Total Picks

2009
Mike Wallace
2010
Maurkice Pouncey
Antonio Brown
2011

Packers 25 Total Picks

2009
BJ Raji
Clay Matthews
2010
Morgan Burnett
2011
Randall Cobb

Those would just be the ones that stand out to me. I understand these top clubs have their Franchise QB except maybe the Raven's. But it looks like they do. I don't see any of these teams claiming that their GM is to blame for anything right now. I just see that when we start losing we try to look at things and try to blame it on certain people. To me even though this team is still losing, people are actually competitive, which we were not last year. This is year 1 in our rebuilding effort as far as i'm concerned. If you go look in the General thread on who the least talented team is, we didn't get a single mention last time i checked.

Most could look at our front 7 and see that have the potential to become one of the best in the league and last time i checked Dom brought in all of that outside Black. I just think people enjoy being negative and don't look at the whole picture.


Nice post!
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REDandPEWTER


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Difference: those 3 teams are consistantly picking at the end of each round and finding talent. What about the bucs picking at te top?
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ravishingone


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucstopshere wrote:
i write that, and nothing from any of you?! Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad


I agree with most of what you wrote earlier, good job. I would just like to add as much as organizations look for the franchise QB, really I think finding a great HC is almost as important. The charter navigated after Gruden was fired was terrible. Rah wasn't ready and his coaching staff outside of a very few assistants (Mangurian, Lake, Stukes, and Millard) were extremely under qualified. I'm not sure how anyone can believe an inadequate coaching staff can maximize the talent on a roster. With that being said, I do believe there is talent on this roster that we are starting to see improve with Coach Schiano and his staff.

Dom and the Glazers failed miserably on the hiring of Rah and his coaching staff.
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YoungBucs15


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

REDandPEWTER wrote:
Difference: those 3 teams are consistantly picking at the end of each round and finding talent. What about the bucs picking at te top?


bucs
09 - 17th - Josh Freeman
10 - 3rd - Gerald McCoy
11 - 20th - Adrian Clayborn

ravens
09 - 23rd - Michael Oher
10 - no first - Sergio Kindle
11 - 27th - Jimmy Smith

steelers
09 - 32nd - Cam Heyward
10 - 18th - Maurkice Pouncey
11 - 31st - Evander Hood

giants
09 - 29th - Prince Amukamara
10 - 15th - Jason Pierre-Paul
11 - 19th - Hakeem Nicks

packers
09 - 9th - BJ Raji
10 - 23rd - Bryan Bulaga
11 - 32nd - Derek Sherrod

Outside thhe Giants it looks like even those teams are not hiding in the 1st all to often either. The Steelers are really the only team on here that hasn't had a pick earlier than the middle of the 1st.

If anyone believed that such players like Mike Wallace, Antonio Brown, Ladarius Webb were going to be great players they wouldn't have lasted past the 1st. There will always be the few elite college players that translate to the pro's and the few that don't and there will be those few late round picks that were overlooked by everyone. At that point you cannot single out a GM as every single one overlooked that player and that single one took a chance on him and it paid off.

Essentially you are blaming someone for not winning at the lottery. Makes sense to me.
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