Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Bickley-Injuries/lack of draft development to blame for line
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Arizona Cardinals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
JohnnyV


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 2205
Location: Chicago, Illinois
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:12 am    Post subject: Bickley-Injuries/lack of draft development to blame for line Reply with quote

Offensive linemen are shock absorbers. You don’t notice their quality until the road gets rough.

The Cardinals have been ignoring them for years.

Thumpety, thump, thump.

Ever see a first-place football team with its hazard lights on? Welcome to Arizona, where the Cardinals are on the side of the road, looking for a quick fix. They’re also coping with a stunning change in perception.

At 4-0, they were a source of pride and wonder. National media showered them with love. Quarterback Kevin Kolb publicly mentioned a ring, implying that the Cardinals were good enough to win the Super Bowl.

One road loss in a short week later, and the reaction has been severe. National: How did they go 4-0 with that offensive line? Local: Fire Russ Grimm immediately. The guy stinks.

“Look, 17 sacks in two games is unacceptable,” Cardinals coach Ken Whisenhunt said. “And I think Russ has been in the business long enough to know that criticism is going to come when you give up that many. That (criticism) is an important part of our sport. Our fans are interested, and that’s why this is the Number 1 sport in the country.

“But Russ isn’t doing anything different than he did when we gave up five sacks in three games against three very good football teams.”

That’s not exactly a ringing endorsement, but Whisenhunt understands what he’s dealing with here. Grimm might not be the solution, but he’s certainly not the problem.

The Cardinals began the season with a pair of starting tackles who had never taken a snap at that position in their NFL careers (journeyman D’Anthony Batiste and rookie Bobby Massie). That’s unheard of.

One reputable rating service just ranked two Cardinals linemen (Batiste, Adam Snyder) as the worst at their position in the NFL. Another (Massie) was second-worst.

Meanwhile, the Washington Post reported that Batiste once lost $80 on a failed Canadian Football League tryout. Undrafted out of college, he once worked as a sheriff’s deputy in Louisiana and served during Hurricane Katrina. Alas, great stories don’t always make great linemen.

Clearly, this sounds like a talent problem, not a coaching problem. And when the foundation of the offensive line is shaken by the loss of a mediocre player (the injured Levi Brown), it’s the sign of an organization that hasn’t planned well.

“Guys are going to have bad games,” Whisenhunt said. “Bobby Massie, in a hostile environment, had a bad game. D’Anthony had a bad game. Can we get back to the way we were the first three weeks, when we did it against three good defenses? Yeah. That line can be good enough to win.”

Given the circumstances, Whisenhunt’s approach is the only way out: steady, emphasizing technique, scheming to hide his own weaknesses on offense. Though he intimated that Grimm and others had underperformed against the Rams — “When you get into a game with edge rushers and all that noise, we have to be a little better in how we approach things” — he reminds us that no conclusion has staying power in the NFL.

With a full week of preparation and a new set of circumstances, the Cardinals’ offensive line might be perfectly satisfactory in Week 6.

“Just because we gave up nine sacks last week doesn’t mean it’s going to happen again,” Whisenhunt said. “What’s crazy to me is, we’ve won 11 of the last 14 games. But that’s the nature of the NFL. Russ is a high-profile coach. He’s going to feel the heat.”

Maybe you can trace the root of this ongoing problem to the haunting selection of Brown over Adrian Peterson in 2007. Since then, they Cardinals always have erred on the side of the skill player, such as choosing Ryan Williams in the second round in 2011 (even thought they had Beanie Wells), such as selecting Michael Floyd with the 13th overall pick in 2012 (even though Andre Roberts was a rising star at No. 2 receiver). Such as a gambler chasing lost money, the Cardinals keep paying for the same mistake.

Or maybe the problem is deeper. Elite offensive linemen disappear early in the draft, and in recent years the Cardinals have opted to fill holes on defense that arose when the team decided not to pay Antonio Smith, Karlos Dansby and Antrel Rolle.

But it seems as if this has been going on forever, from the days when Josh McCown was treated like a side of beef in “Rocky,” from the time the franchise allowed Dennis Green to cut Pete Kendall on the eve of training camp, just to send a message.

Now the message has changed, and the Cardinals need to pay attention:

If you want a smooth ride in the fast lane, those shock absorbers are pretty important.


Geez, that's a pretty disturbing backstory on Batiste. Nothing being stated here that hasn't already been stated on this forumn, none the less I thought it was worth sharing.

Gotta invest those high picks in some bluechippers. We haven't.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stchamp98


Most Valuable Poster (3rd Ballot)

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52981
Location: Havre, Montana
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Gotta invest those high picks in some bluechippers. We haven't."

My thoughts exactly. Pretty easy for casual fans to complain about the lack of development when they're not the ones being asked to make winners out of college players taken on day 3 of the NFL Draft. We've drafted 1 offensive lineman (The 8th best run blocking OT in the league, currently on IR) before round 4....in 6 years. That's fact. Look at the defense. Borderline elite. Multiple 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks. Take Calais Campbell, Dan Williams, Darnell Dockett, Daryl Washington, Patrick Peterson and Adrian Wilson off this defense and replace them with 3rd day picks and then try and tell me with a straight face that Ray Horton's defense will look as good as it does now.

I said it before, I'll say it again, if Russ Grimm goes he goes but if we continue to draft bottom day 3 OL there's isn't an OL coach in the world who could come in here and do any better in Whiz's scheme. Grimm's sinply the fans scapegoat to allow them to ignore the real problem.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JohnnyV


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 2205
Location: Chicago, Illinois
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did a little research going back to the 2008 draft, the year after we took Levi. Say Levi had panned out into a Pro Bowl OT and Adrian Peterson would have busted due to injury…would we have turned as cautious in regards to taking talent over need when it came to the offensive line? (Specifically dealing with the first three rounds)

2008 Draft Class
1st Round Pick - #16 - Dominique Rodgers Cromartie
Offensive linemen taken after …
Gosder Cherilus
Jeff Otah
Sam Baker
Duane Brown
2nd Round Pick - #50 - Calais Campbell
Offensive linemen taken after …
NONE
3rd Round Pick - #81 - Early Doucet
Offensive linemen taken after…
Chad Rinehart
Oniel Cousins

2009 Draft Class (Because we picked second to last in each round, I looked at the guys taken after, so we started in round two)
1st Round Pick - #31 - Chris "Beanie" Wells
Offensive linemen taken after (round two)
Eben Britton
Max Unger
Phil Loadholt
Sebastian Vollmer
William Beatty
2nd Round Pick - #63 - Cody Brown
Offensive linemen taken after (round three)
Robert Brewster
3rd Round Pick - #95 - Rashad Johnson
Offensive linemen taken after (round four)
T. J. Lang
Seth Olsen
Troy Kropog

2010 Draft Class
1st Round Pick - #26 - Dan Williams
Offensive linemen taken after
NONE (Although Roger Staffold was 1st pick in 2nd)
2nd Round Pick - #47 - Daryl Washington
Offensive linemen taken after
Vladimir Ducasse
Charles Brown
3rd Round Pick - #88 - Andre Roberts
Offensive linemen taken after
Shawn Lauvao
Mike Johnson

2011 Draft Class
1st Round Pick - #5 - Patrick Peterson
Offensive linemen taken after
Tyron Smith
Nate Solder
Anthony Castonzo
James Carpenter
Gabe Carimi
Derek Sherrod
2nd Round Pick - #38 - Ryan Williams
Offensive linemen taken after
Orlando Franklin
Ben Ijalana
Rodney Hudson
Marcus Gilbert
3rd Round Pick - #69 - Rob Housler
Offensive linemen taken after
John Moffit
Will Rackley
Jah Reid
Joseph Barksdale

2012 Draft Class
1st Round Pick - #13 - Michael Floyd
Offensive linemen taken after
Riley Reiff
David DeCastro
Kevin Zeitler
2nd Round Pick - NONE
Round Two Offensive linemen
Cordy Glenn
Jonathan Martin
Jeff Allen
Peter Konz
Mike Adams
Kelechi Osemele
3rd Round Pick - #80 - Jamell Fleming
Offensive linemen taken after
Lamar Holmes
Tony Bergstrom

Hindsight, other than DRC in 2008 and losing a 2nd round pick this year, there aren't a great amount of missed oppurtunities, at least at first glance. And we needed a corner in the worst way in 2008, not to mention we needed a QB in 2011. Kind of ironic.

But all in all, are you really going to tell me you'd rather have Tyron Smith over Patrick Peterson? Or Roger Staffold over Dan Williams or Daryl Washington?

2008 was the year to grab an OT in the first round but we had needs much larger not to mention we took one a year before. DRC helped us get to a Super Bowl, while Calais Campbell is a force of nature.

Please let me know if I left anyone off.
_________________


Last edited by JohnnyV on Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JohnnyV


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 2205
Location: Chicago, Illinois
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose we could have gotten aggressive and traded up at some point...
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stchamp98


Most Valuable Poster (3rd Ballot)

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52981
Location: Havre, Montana
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hindsight is also 20-20 but wow, that is an incredibly mediocre list of OL names aside from Tyron Smith and Nate Solder. Frankly I wouldn't trade Peterson for both of those players, let alone one of them.

Guess I need to cut Graves a little slack. Just a little though.,
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JohnnyV


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 2205
Location: Chicago, Illinois
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
Hindsight is also 20-20 but wow, that is an incredibly mediocre list of OL names aside from Tyron Smith and Nate Solder. Frankly I wouldn't trade Peterson for both of those players, let alone one of them.

Guess I need to cut Graves a little slack. Just a little though.,


The 2009 Class in general was just rotten.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DDOCKETT90


Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 702
Location: GILBERT, AZ
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was good fas we could have signed!
_________________

matthouston91 made it!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DirtyDez


Joined: 15 Oct 2010
Posts: 12772
Location: the Arizona desert
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ Grimm will never be fired. Some people are immune to being held accountable. If our OL coach was just a regular no name guy he would've been canned long ago but Grimm was a HOF player and came from the vaunted Steeler organization.
_________________

The Rebuild Has Begun...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
#1CARDSFAN


Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 23284
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't agree that taking players such as Michael Floyd was a bad pick. We won't know that for 3 years possibly less. Even Ryan Williams although everyone hated the pick at the time wasn't really a terrible pick.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stchamp98


Most Valuable Poster (3rd Ballot)

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52981
Location: Havre, Montana
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

#1CARDSFAN wrote:
I don't agree that taking players such as Michael Floyd was a bad pick. We won't know that for 3 years possibly less. Even Ryan Williams although everyone hated the pick at the time wasn't really a terrible pick.


Who said taking Floyd was a bad pick? I wouldn't agree with that either.

I also don't agree with Bickley's assessment of Roberts as a "rising star" pre-2012 draft. It's painfully obvious Mr. Bickley is thinking in the now with that statement and completely ignoring Roberts horribly mediocre 2011 play.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
iRobot


Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 789
Location: Mesa, AZ
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
#1CARDSFAN wrote:
I don't agree that taking players such as Michael Floyd was a bad pick. We won't know that for 3 years possibly less. Even Ryan Williams although everyone hated the pick at the time wasn't really a terrible pick.


Who said taking Floyd was a bad pick? I wouldn't agree with that either.

I also don't agree with Bickley's assessment of Roberts as a "rising star" pre-2012 draft. It's painfully obvious Mr. Bickley is thinking in the now with that statement and completely ignoring Roberts horribly mediocre 2011 play.


I think Bickley sees part of Andre's rise from the tail of 2011, but, I wouldn't of personally said a rising star, more of a budding WR to watch.

Everyone in the world said we needed to pick an OT at 13 or WR like Floyd. We had "no number 2 WR to take pressure off Fitz"... was the common statement. Going into the draft, we had an improved Levi Brown at LT. Acquired Snyder (controversial) and were starting Bridges at RT, which some saw as an upgrade over Keith and still had questions though at RT.

Reiff, who was commonly projected at 13 is struggling. Some say we should have traded back to grab Glenn later and get more picks. Well, finding a partner to trade back to Glenn may not have happened. Value may not of been there.

I think we took the best option presented to us at 13 and there's nothing wrong with it.

Sure, NOW, people want to say we should of without a doubt done everything possible to acquire an OT in the early rounds. A ton of people said, aw man I wanted an OT but I like the Floyd pick too.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stchamp98


Most Valuable Poster (3rd Ballot)

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52981
Location: Havre, Montana
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really can't even say "budding receiver to watch". Not that that he wasn't a possible building block but he simply didn't show anything that would lead me to assume he was capable of handling a #2 role in a pass heavy offense.

As far as draft day trades go, I have no idea what was offered but Graves himself said he did get calls to move back. I'll post the link if I can re-find it.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JohnnyV


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 2205
Location: Chicago, Illinois
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the way our pass protection finished last season, combined with Whiz openly saying that our receivers couldn't seperate last year...

Everyone on the board wanted a #2 WR and since we had little spending money in free agency there was only one other place to turn.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stchamp98


Most Valuable Poster (3rd Ballot)

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52981
Location: Havre, Montana
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnnyV wrote:
With the way our pass protection finished last season, combined with Whiz openly saying that our receivers couldn't seperate last year...

Everyone on the board wanted a #2 WR and since we had little spending money in free agency there was only one other place to turn.


Well give Whiz credit, that is a true statement. Aside from Larry, our receivers couldn't separate last year on a consistent basis.

Let's face it, we were a bad team last season despite an 8-8 record. We had lots of holes to fill, not a lot of money to fill them, lots of internal guys we needed to pay (Calais and D-Wash) and only 2 picks on the first 2 days of the NFL Draft. They same Rome wasn't built in a day, maybe we're seeing that play out right now.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
apollo14000


Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Posts: 4221
Location: PA
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't blame Graves/Whiz one bit for the drafts, aside from their first draft together. We've done really well there getting the BPA. Most of the picks that didn't work out or work out yet was because of injuries. See Cody Brown, Wells, Williams, etc. I do blame them for their [inappropriate/removed] poor free agency offenisve signings. Edge, Faneca, Gandy, Bridges, Snyder are guys they signed to play big roles and they didn't come through. Just think, if we didn't Snyder then DDC would have still been in play at #13.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Arizona Cardinals All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group