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Who is the starting QB 2013?
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Who will be our starter 2013?
Blaine Gabbert
37%
 37%  [ 6 ]
Chad Henne
12%
 12%  [ 2 ]
Rookie
50%
 50%  [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 16

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Its A Sabotage


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
Why would I teach a man with no legs how to kick a football?


BUT U CAHNT DISPROVE WITH FACTS!

Shows facts.

BUT WUD BOUT DIZ. - brings up something nonsensical.

Argues and shows further proof and facts.

NAH BUT THIS HAPPENED. SHOW ME HOW IT DIDN'T.

Then it becomes an unwinable argument because whatever you say doesn't fit personal agenda and can be thrown out because it isn't the exact terrible proof he wants. --- See all Tebow threads, and Iggles in the When Did you stop believing thread in TAST.
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Jaguarfan


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:
Adrenaline_Flux wrote:

Hey. I gave advanced warning that arguing with him would be completely pointless. Laughing


It does seem to be a futile endeavor when I'm going up against people who can't actually quantify arguments with facts and the closest thing they have is a fabrication

"Blaine Gabbert has more potential than Vick just because he's younger"

The same logic that could be used to say any young 4th string QB could have more potential than any vet.

*Head explodes*
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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its A Sabotage wrote:
Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
Why would I teach a man with no legs how to kick a football?


BUT U CAHNT DISPROVE WITH FACTS!

Shows facts.

BUT WUD BOUT DIZ. - brings up something nonsensical.

Argues and shows further proof and facts.

NAH BUT THIS HAPPENED. SHOW ME HOW IT DIDN'T.

Then it becomes an unwinable argument because whatever you say doesn't fit personal agenda and can be thrown out because it isn't the exact terrible proof he wants. --- See all Tebow threads, and Iggles in the When Did you stop believing thread in TAST.


I mean, I put it into just one sentence and was cute with it, but this is also an adequate way of putting it.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:


Here's the argument.

Vick has never been a good QB. At this point, it's a given that he will continue to not be a good QB. He also has no chance of sticking around for any long period of time.

Gabbert probably won't, but there's at least a chance he will develop into something good and stick around for a while.


I applaud at least the effort in making an argument albeit how vague.

So now the argument is about what you say quantifies someone as being a good QB. I understand the argument that Vick hasn't played elite or great. But not Good?

Vick was top 10 in the league in producing yards and touchdowns even in 3 of his 4 years in Atlanta with a JaMarcus Russell level work ethic.

Was Vick not a good QB in 2002, 2010, etc? He was closer to great than not being even good for all intents and purposes.

Vick is a 4 time pro bowler because of acknowledgement of his peers of the contribution he's made to his teams over the years.

There is a reason why Falcons went 3-12 without Vick and the Eagles 4-10

I understand you are basing the Gabbert argument off of the fact that he could technically become great just because he has enough time left in his career to become great. But what has he shown to make it a reasonable assertion that he could produce at a higher level than Vick over the next 4 years?
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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reasonable assertion is that Vick sucks and is injury prone and has been that way every year except for one in his career.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vick has 10 more INTs+fumbles than total TDs.


Here is Michael Vick's career numbers as a passer
1607/2856 56.3% 20,077yards 122TDs 81INTs 80.7QB Rating

Here is the stats of another player if his stats were extrapolated across 120 games (the same as Vick's)
1851/3145 58.9% 20,746 126TDs 88INTs 80.4 QB Rating

This QB will also likely be a Free Agent this offseason and is younger than Vick. Is he worth signing?
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Its A Sabotage


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Vick has 10 more INTs+fumbles than total TDs.


Here is Michael Vick's career numbers as a passer
1607/2856 56.3% 20,077yards 122TDs 81INTs 80.7QB Rating

Here is the stats of another player if his stats were extrapolated across 120 games (the same as Vick's)
1851/3145 58.9% 20,746 126TDs 88INTs 80.4 QB Rating

This QB will also likely be a Free Agent this offseason and is younger than Vick. Is he worth signing?


David Garrard? That has to be David Garrard.
Send me a PM.
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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David Garrard's numbers were much better. He and Flacco have comparable numbers.

I know who it is. Not saying doe.
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Jaguarfan


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its A Sabotage wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Vick has 10 more INTs+fumbles than total TDs.


Here is Michael Vick's career numbers as a passer
1607/2856 56.3% 20,077yards 122TDs 81INTs 80.7QB Rating

Here is the stats of another player if his stats were extrapolated across 120 games (the same as Vick's)
1851/3145 58.9% 20,746 126TDs 88INTs 80.4 QB Rating

This QB will also likely be a Free Agent this offseason and is younger than Vick. Is he worth signing?


David Garrard? That has to be David Garrard.
Send me a PM.

Garrard is older than Vick.
But I'm curious as to who it is, too.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Vick has 10 more INTs+fumbles than total TDs.


Here is Michael Vick's career numbers as a passer
1607/2856 56.3% 20,077yards 122TDs 81INTs 80.7QB Rating

Here is the stats of another player if his stats were extrapolated across 120 games (the same as Vick's)
1851/3145 58.9% 20,746 126TDs 88INTs 80.4 QB Rating

This QB will also likely be a Free Agent this offseason and is younger than Vick. Is he worth signing?


fumbles are not a turnover stat. Lost fumbles are. Otherwise there would be QBs who are even considered borderline elite who would be in trouble of having more turnovers than TDs most notably Eli Manning.

Big Ben also has a ton of fumbles in his career.


And you can conveniently leave out Vick's rushing TDs that were a major factor in why teams that were 3-12 without him in Atlanta and 4-10 without him in Philly were always at least a threat to make the post-season with him.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaguarfan wrote:
Its A Sabotage wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Vick has 10 more INTs+fumbles than total TDs.


Here is Michael Vick's career numbers as a passer
1607/2856 56.3% 20,077yards 122TDs 81INTs 80.7QB Rating

Here is the stats of another player if his stats were extrapolated across 120 games (the same as Vick's)
1851/3145 58.9% 20,746 126TDs 88INTs 80.4 QB Rating

This QB will also likely be a Free Agent this offseason and is younger than Vick. Is he worth signing?


David Garrard? That has to be David Garrard.
Send me a PM.

Garrard is older than Vick.
But I'm curious as to who it is, too.


Out of curiosity I had to look it up. It's Matt Cassel judging by the completion percentage and passer rating

Matt Cassel is a perfect example of my point about how important coaching is

Some players could look elite in most schemes. But many players need certain schemes to succeed and most if not all need certain schemes to maximize their potential. Cassel looked great in New England with McDaniels and company and in KC with Charlie Weis

But without that type of coaching he doesn't look worthy of being a starter

Vick's never looked as poor as Cassel without the most ideal scheme, but it's a perfect example of how Vick could look significantly better with the right scheme fit


As much as I bashed Mularkey on the Falcons even his offense would fit Vick more than the offense he's been stuck in for most of his career in the WCO of Knapp and Reid
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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best scheme for Michael Vick is the option offense of sitting on a couch or sitting in a chair watching actual good QBs play on television.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
The best scheme for Michael Vick is the option offense of sitting on a couch or sitting in a chair watching actual good QBs play on television.


I think that's the scheme that many people want to see Vick in which is why they can't objectively evaluate his level of play.

I may be biased in favor of Vick but not nearly as biased as many people are against Vick

For instance, to match some of the bias that some people have against Vick would be the equivalent of me saying Vick is the GOAT.

That would be the opposite of the other extreme of the spectrum of people who say Vick isn't even clear cut better than QBs who have to produce something in the future to avoid being some of the biggest busts in NFL history (like Blaine Gabbert)
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:
fumbles are not a turnover stat. Lost fumbles are.
I don't think I called them turnovers, but okay. A fumble is a fumble. Just because someone from your own team falls on it doesn't mean you don't have a fumbling issue.

Quote:
Otherwise there would be QBs who are even considered borderline elite who would be in trouble of having more turnovers than TDs most notably Eli Manning.
Yeah, he does. And for a long time in his career, it was a serious problem. He's only started to get it cleaned up. Everyone knows this and would tell you his propensity to turn the ball over was one of the biggest reasons they were so down on him for so long.

Quote:
Big Ben also has a ton of fumbles in his career.
He's +34 on the Total TD - Fumbles

Quote:
And you can conveniently leave out Vick's rushing TDs that were a
And you think that a 33-35 year old Michael Vick will be as productive on the ground with those old legs?

Quote:
major factor in why teams that were 3-12 without him in Atlanta and 4-10 without him in Philly were always at least a threat to make the post-season with him.
The Eagles were 3-6 with him this year. What a difference maker!

Most teams suck without their QBs. Backups aren't supposed to carry their teams for any length of time. I mean take a look at who replaced him. That tells you more about what those records mean than anything else.
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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:
Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
The best scheme for Michael Vick is the option offense of sitting on a couch or sitting in a chair watching actual good QBs play on television.


I think that's the scheme that many people want to see Vick in which is why they can't objectively evaluate his level of play.

I may be biased in favor of Vick but not nearly as biased as many people are against Vick

For instance, to match some of the bias that some people have against Vick would be the equivalent of me saying Vick is the GOAT.

That would be the opposite of the other extreme of the spectrum of people who say Vick isn't even clear cut better than QBs who have to produce something in the future to avoid being some of the biggest busts in NFL history (like Blaine Gabbert)


I'm not biased against Vick. I don't think he's a good NFL QB and isn't worth signing when we already have a bad QB who is younger and still at least has potential.
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