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GDT 14: The Revenge of Chad Henne/The Return of CSIII
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Who Wins?
Phins
66%
 66%  [ 6 ]
Chad Henne
11%
 11%  [ 1 ]
The Jaguars' hopes at the number 1 pick
22%
 22%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 9

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KhanYouDigIt


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henne Lockon was in full effect today. Does he ever look off his receivers?

Aside from the Texans game, hes been worse than Gabbert.
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Jaguarfan


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we are capable of being a successful football team with Henne at QB, but improvements are needed on Defense and obviously O line. Henne hung onto the ball too long a few times. There was pressure every play. Henne had like 20 rush yards, that tells you how bad the line is. With a top 10 D and a serviceable O line, I absolutely think we are capable of being an above-average team with Henne. Obviously though, with a better QB we wouldn't need all those things.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaguarfan wrote:
The QB isn't even close to being the biggest problem.


I can maybe agree with this. But the QB position is clearly a problem, and upgrading that position offers, by far, the largest potential gains to this team. This team doesn't need to spend a first round pick on the o-line, as LT is the only position worthy of a top two pick and the rest of the spots can be fixed in FA/later rounds. Fix those two problems and MJD comes back healthy, and this team will be able to hang with most everybody.
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Jaguarfan


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KhanYouDigIt wrote:
Henne Lockon was in full effect today. Does he ever look off his receivers?

Aside from the Texans game, hes been worse than Gabbert.

That's not even remotely true. Firstly, the Texans game isn't even Henne's best game.
Secondly, I can half agree maybe if you're saying Henne's recent games aren't as good as Gabbert's best game. But Henne's Buffalo game and today's game are better than an average Gabbert game.
I love how people are having selective memory on how bad Gabbert was when Henne struggles.
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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Texans game was the best game of Henne's career and even then most of his yards were YAC.

Selective memory? I was saying this stuff when Henne was doing well in that Texans game lol
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Jaguarfan


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
The Texans game was the best game of Henne's career and even then most of his yards were YAC.

No it wasn't. See week 1, 2011.

Quote:
Selective memory? I was saying this stuff when Henne was doing well in that Texans game lol
.......The selective memory comment wasn't directed at you.......
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaguarfan wrote:
Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
The Texans game was the best game of Henne's career and even then most of his yards were YAC.

No it wasn't. See week 1, 2011.
2 TDs compared to 4. 1 INT compared to 0. 9.49 yards per attempt compared to 10.73. 13.86 yards per completion compared to 22.125.

He had more 62 yards, but that was because he threw 16 more passes. To get to that, Henne would have had to throw 3.875 yards per attempt on those 16 passes. He had a significantly higher completion percentage, but it doesn't make up for the fact that his stats everywhere else were so much worse.

Statistically, the Houston game was far and away his best game, even with the low completion percentage.
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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaguarfan wrote:
Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
The Texans game was the best game of Henne's career and even then most of his yards were YAC.

No it wasn't. See week 1, 2011.

Quote:
Selective memory? I was saying this stuff when Henne was doing well in that Texans game lol
.......The selective memory comment wasn't directed at you.......


I'm not people?
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Jaguarfan


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
Jaguarfan wrote:
Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
The Texans game was the best game of Henne's career and even then most of his yards were YAC.

No it wasn't. See week 1, 2011.

Quote:
Selective memory? I was saying this stuff when Henne was doing well in that Texans game lol
.......The selective memory comment wasn't directed at you.......


I'm not people?

I meant some people. Sorry. I said it wasn't directed at you. Because it wasn't.
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KhanYouDigIt


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chad's last 3 games:


57/119, 47% completion, 608 yards, 5.1 YPA, 1 TD, 3 INT's.

QB Rating in each game: 57.8, 41.3, 73.3


Then we take into account the garbage time yards in the Bills/Phins games.


And we are averaging 10 PPG the last 3 games.



He's so good.
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Jaguarfan


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KhanYouDigIt wrote:
Chad's last 3 games:


57/119, 47% completion, 608 yards, 5.1 YPA, 1 TD, 3 INT's.

QB Rating in each game: 57.8, 41.3, 73.3


Then we take into account the garbage time yards in the Bills/Phins games.


And we are averaging 10 PPG the last 3 games.



He's so good.

Nobody said he was so good.
But stats lie. That's well known. I've watched the games.
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KhanYouDigIt


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaguarfan wrote:
KhanYouDigIt wrote:
Chad's last 3 games:


57/119, 47% completion, 608 yards, 5.1 YPA, 1 TD, 3 INT's.

QB Rating in each game: 57.8, 41.3, 73.3


Then we take into account the garbage time yards in the Bills/Phins games.


And we are averaging 10 PPG the last 3 games.



He's so good.

Nobody said he was so good.
But stats lie. That's well known. I've watched the games.


I've watched them too, he's horrible.


You saw him compile 100 passing yards in the 4th quarter against the Bills when we were down 24 points? Or the 78 yards he threw for in our final drive today when we were down 24-3?

Other than those garbage time stats, he's thrown for 430 yards in 10 quarters. 0 TD"s

He sucks. We need a new QB.
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Tugboat


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaguarfan wrote:
I think we are capable of being a successful football team with Henne at QB, but improvements are needed on Defense and obviously O line. Henne hung onto the ball too long a few times. There was pressure every play. Henne had like 20 rush yards, that tells you how bad the line is. With a top 10 D and a serviceable O line, I absolutely think we are capable of being an above-average team with Henne. Obviously though, with a better QB we wouldn't need all those things.


I agree in large part. Yes, at times, Henne holds on to the ball too long. Doesn't quite have that internal clock set right...

But at the same time, 'too long' with this terrible O-Line isn't very long at all. Build a rock solid Offensive Line, and you can put all kinds of QBs back there with some measure of success. See: 49ers w/Alex Smith. I think we have some good pieces for our O-Line, but with the kind of play we saw from that unit today...even getting ourselves a shiny new 1st round QB prospect is going to be spinning our wheels and going nowhere really fast.

We really need a new immediate starter quality Center, and a RT. I think Rackley could be the solution at LG, but expecting an inexperienced guy, basically out of football for a year to come in and be the saviour in anchoring the interior of our line...is just throwing up a hail mary really. Brewster looks like solid depth, but he's not a starter at this point and i wouldn't expect him to be a quality starter next year either. Same goes for Bradfield. It's not that he's a bad player or can't continue to develop...but if every team with a decent pass rush off the right side is going to walk right around the edge unimpeded, we're not going to get a whole lot done, with whoever is under center.

I don't really agree that we can be an 'above average team' with Henne at the helm...but i'd prefer to build up lasting parts of our team for the future...and stumble our way through another season with wildly inconsistent and consistently unimpressive QB play, than spend a top-2 pick on a QB...just because we don't have the right guy in place.

iPwn wrote:
Jaguarfan wrote:
The QB isn't even close to being the biggest problem.


I can maybe agree with this. But the QB position is clearly a problem, and upgrading that position offers, by far, the largest potential gains to this team. This team doesn't need to spend a first round pick on the o-line, as LT is the only position worthy of a top two pick and the rest of the spots can be fixed in FA/later rounds. Fix those two problems and MJD comes back healthy, and this team will be able to hang with most everybody.


QB is clearly a problem...and it's a glaring one because it is the most important position. But i completely disagree that it offers (by far) the largest potential gains to this team...long term. Sure in the immediate term, an upgrade on Henne/Gabbert might look good...but i'd much rather fix some of the widespread problems with this team as a whole, and find ourselves a QB next year or something. Or realistically...Gabbert/Henne have been unimpressive enough that it isn't even hard to see a 2nd/3rd/4th round rookie stepping in and blowing them both out of the water in the interim.

Put Geno at the helm here, and even if you think he's going to be 'Elite', which i'm not sold on...Think Patriots. Even with Geno, our offense is still not even close to what the Pats can put on the field...and honestly, our defense is probably less talented overall as well, for all the flack their defense takes. They've got guys who provide a better pash rush, usually a better run defense up front, a better LB corps than our injury depleted replacement crew, 2 CBs who are better than anyone we can field (aside from the odd days where Cox is 'feelin' it'), and depth beyond that. I'd honestly trade our defensive personnel for theirs at this point...

This just really isn't a good team right now. We need more talent everywhere. And i'm of the mind that you don't build a team to 'sneak into the playoffs'...you build a team to win it all. Big picture stuff...it's the sort of thing the 49ers have done for example. And turned it around in a really big hurry there...following the mold of building a team first.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tugboat wrote:
QB is clearly a problem...and it's a glaring one because it is the most important position. But i completely disagree that it offers (by far) the largest potential gains to this team...long term. Sure in the immediate term, an upgrade on Henne/Gabbert might look good...but i'd much rather fix some of the widespread problems with this team as a whole, and find ourselves a QB next year or something. Or realistically...Gabbert/Henne have been unimpressive enough that it isn't even hard to see a 2nd/3rd/4th round rookie stepping in and blowing them both out of the water in the interim.

Put Geno at the helm here, and even if you think he's going to be 'Elite', which i'm not sold on...Think Patriots. Even with Geno, our offense is still not even close to what the Pats can put on the field...and honestly, our defense is probably less talented overall as well, for all the flack their defense takes. They've got guys who provide a better pash rush, usually a better run defense up front, a better LB corps than our injury depleted replacement crew, 2 CBs who are better than anyone we can field (aside from the odd days where Cox is 'feelin' it'), and depth beyond that. I'd honestly trade our defensive personnel for theirs at this point...

This just really isn't a good team right now. We need more talent everywhere. And i'm of the mind that you don't build a team to 'sneak into the playoffs'...you build a team to win it all. Big picture stuff...it's the sort of thing the 49ers have done for example. And turned it around in a really big hurry there...following the mold of building a team first.


I'm kinda confused with what you're saying here..

Drafting Geno doesn't preclude us from being able to address other issues with our other picks. It simply means that we are without one player somewhere else that could have been the first round pick. The QB position will give better returns than any other position we could draft there, assuming that they're both able to have the same same success relative to their position.

And if you believe that QB is elite, you take him because you might not get another chance to draft an elite superstar QB. Every year (barring a year like this where there isn't many "great prospects"), you can move around and land an elite prospect at almost every position in the 9-12 range if you target the right guy, ans the cost to move up is going to be a 4th or maybe a second. It is going to be basically impossible to get an elite QB prospect outside of the top 5 anymore. And to trade into there, you're going to give up a lot to do it. What the Redskins gave up, and to move from 6th to 2nd, is going to be the norm.

The odds that we'll be this bad next year (under the assumption that you believe we would be drafting quality players), will be quite low. If we pick 6th next year, do we trade the farm for a QB then and ultimately put ourselves behind if we drafted a the superstar now? Or do we keep middling around without a Franchise guy and hope one falls into our lap? Sure drafting the QB might make it so come next time we draft, we're at 16 instead of 6 and hurt our chances at getting [player X], but moving up to 6th overall from 16th will be a whole lot cheaper than moving from 6th to 2nd or 3rd to get a QB.

And if you're building a team to win the Super Bowl, you make sure you get your QB when you have a chance.




All of that said, if Geno isn't the guy, then you don't draft him.

To kinda sum all of this up...
Ending up with Cam Newton and Tamba Hali > Von Miller and Ryan Tannehill > Ryan Leaf and JJ Watt

I picked players that explained the point, based on general perceptions and should be value at the expected picks rather than to make a statement about certain players. So save it!
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Tugboat


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Tugboat wrote:
QB is clearly a problem...and it's a glaring one because it is the most important position. But i completely disagree that it offers (by far) the largest potential gains to this team...long term. Sure in the immediate term, an upgrade on Henne/Gabbert might look good...but i'd much rather fix some of the widespread problems with this team as a whole, and find ourselves a QB next year or something. Or realistically...Gabbert/Henne have been unimpressive enough that it isn't even hard to see a 2nd/3rd/4th round rookie stepping in and blowing them both out of the water in the interim.

Put Geno at the helm here, and even if you think he's going to be 'Elite', which i'm not sold on...Think Patriots. Even with Geno, our offense is still not even close to what the Pats can put on the field...and honestly, our defense is probably less talented overall as well, for all the flack their defense takes. They've got guys who provide a better pash rush, usually a better run defense up front, a better LB corps than our injury depleted replacement crew, 2 CBs who are better than anyone we can field (aside from the odd days where Cox is 'feelin' it'), and depth beyond that. I'd honestly trade our defensive personnel for theirs at this point...

This just really isn't a good team right now. We need more talent everywhere. And i'm of the mind that you don't build a team to 'sneak into the playoffs'...you build a team to win it all. Big picture stuff...it's the sort of thing the 49ers have done for example. And turned it around in a really big hurry there...following the mold of building a team first.


I'm kinda confused with what you're saying here..

Drafting Geno doesn't preclude us from being able to address other issues with our other picks. It simply means that we are without one player somewhere else that could have been the first round pick. The QB position will give better returns than any other position we could draft there, assuming that they're both able to have the same same success relative to their position.

And if you believe that QB is elite, you take him because you might not get another chance to draft an elite superstar QB. Every year (barring a year like this where there isn't many "great prospects"), you can move around and land an elite prospect at almost every position in the 9-12 range if you target the right guy, ans the cost to move up is going to be a 4th or maybe a second. It is going to be basically impossible to get an elite QB prospect outside of the top 5 anymore. And to trade into there, you're going to give up a lot to do it. What the Redskins gave up, and to move from 6th to 2nd, is going to be the norm.

The odds that we'll be this bad next year (under the assumption that you believe we would be drafting quality players), will be quite low. If we pick 6th next year, do we trade the farm for a QB then and ultimately put ourselves behind if we drafted a the superstar now? Or do we keep middling around without a Franchise guy and hope one falls into our lap? Sure drafting the QB might make it so come next time we draft, we're at 16 instead of 6 and hurt our chances at getting [player X], but moving up to 6th overall from 16th will be a whole lot cheaper than moving from 6th to 2nd or 3rd to get a QB.

And if you're building a team to win the Super Bowl, you make sure you get your QB when you have a chance.




All of that said, if Geno isn't the guy, then you don't draft him.

To kinda sum all of this up...
Ending up with Cam Newton and Tamba Hali > Von Miller and Ryan Tannehill > Ryan Leaf and JJ Watt

I picked players that explained the point, based on general perceptions and should be value at the expected picks rather than to make a statement about certain players. So save it!


It's largely a reference to your claim that the problems with this team can be fixed with FA/later rounds...with the result that 'this team will be able to hang with most everybody'.

I just don't think that's true. Put Geno in at QB, sign a FA or later round guy to try to patch our O-Line...our team is still a wreck as a whole. Our defense isn't going to stop anybody, and we aren't even going to generate turnovers. And even offensively, i don't see our group with Geno at the helm as being near as intimidating as the league leading-type offense it would take to balance out our terrible defense.

I guess it does partially come back to whether or not Geno Smith is a true 'franchise QB', which to me, is a consistent top-10 QB. Personally, i fear he tops out as a Flacco/Freeman type who is very mediocre...but flashes just enough to cause a team to hang on for years and years. Not elite, but not sucky enough to ditch right away. As a best case...worst case...it's another 1st round bust.

But regardless of that...even IF i'm wrong and he is somehow an 'elite' QB in the NFL...the talent on this team just isn't there to be a true title contender. Our defense is honestly a joke. Our O-Line is pathetic. Our running game leans on a guy who has maybe a year or two left at high level, and while our passing game isn't anything to brag about...it's improving.

I'd still much rather spend top picks on guys who will shore up the other huge holes in our team for the long-term...and try for a hail mary on a mid-round sort of QB and/or Henne/Gabbert improving somehow. The way i see it...either we strike gold and it's all smiles and rainbows, or it's a dead end and being the QB driven league this is...we're still bad enough next year that we're right back in the running for a Bridgewater/Smith/Fales/etc.

There's a reason people are constantly echoing the sentiment that this is a terrible year for a QB-starved team to have the #1 pick.
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