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DirtyDez


Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

love2theOLINE wrote:
If Horton leaves maybe we can finally get Kieth Butler


So we're letting the guy who controls the strongest part of our team go?
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Boise&cards Fan


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

love2theOLINE wrote:
If Horton leaves maybe we can finally get Kieth Butler


Still don't think the Steelers would let him leave.
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love2theOLINE


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
love2theOLINE wrote:
If Horton leaves maybe we can finally get Kieth Butler


So we're letting the guy who controls the strongest part of our team go?


Not intentionally but if Horton becomes a HC
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x0x


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
x0x wrote:
Oh hell, is it that hard for you guys to give the man credit?.


Nobody regrets the Whiz signing but two seasons in 08-09' doesn't get him a pass for terrible results since then. Another 6-10 season next year and will you still defend him?



I'd probably be neutral at that point.

I strongly believe in rewarding a guy who's gotten you something big in the past.

Multiple playoff wins, as low as it may seem, is very valuable to this franchise. I remember the win against the Boys in 98 very well for example.


But to fire him this season would be moronic and shameful. The man has had to deal without a QB for three seasons.

It's not like Kurt Warner was replaced by a Carson Palmer, let alone all the other players I mentioned that left after 2009.


So Whiz has been a good coach at worst, maybe not great but good enough to deserve at least another season.
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SuperFlyTNT


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Whiz got exposed when Kurt left. Poor results, poor drafting and the inability to evaluate/develop quarterbacks along with the Offensive Line. If we stick with him we'll be in the same exact place in 2 years, NFL Purgatory.

Glad he came here but he needs to go... Loyalty is overrated, results aren't.


His coaching ability has not been exposed. His roster management and his ability to hire a coaching staff have, but as a pure head football coach he has not been exposed.

Not many head coaches can continue to hold their team and continue to have them motivated to play ball after 6 and 7 game losing streaks.


That is a major part of coaching! So he doesn't get held accountable for his mistakes?


khodder wrote:
How many coaches have the ability to turn 1-6 to 8-8?


How many coaches have the ability to turn 4-0 to 4-9? Just one because it's only happened 1 time in NFL history.


First off Whiz has made some great and some bad choices on his staff - not all lousy or all great. The player personnel decisions have been his weak point - recent drafts have gone better than the earlier ones though.

So - held accountable - there's different levels of that and IMO you've got to evaluate the entire body of work. He hasn't been great on player personnel decisions - but if you've got a chance to make someone else like Steve Keim the man there and you have Whiz address the offensive staff the way he did the defense when firing Billy Davis and hiring Ray Horton, I'd like to take that chance for one more year.

We're not far away from being a pretty good team - O-Line improvement (in addition to what we've seen this year) and mostly improved QB play and we are contenders.
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DirtyDez


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperFlyTNT wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Whiz got exposed when Kurt left. Poor results, poor drafting and the inability to evaluate/develop quarterbacks along with the Offensive Line. If we stick with him we'll be in the same exact place in 2 years, NFL Purgatory.

Glad he came here but he needs to go... Loyalty is overrated, results aren't.


His coaching ability has not been exposed. His roster management and his ability to hire a coaching staff have, but as a pure head football coach he has not been exposed.

Not many head coaches can continue to hold their team and continue to have them motivated to play ball after 6 and 7 game losing streaks.


That is a major part of coaching! So he doesn't get held accountable for his mistakes?


khodder wrote:
How many coaches have the ability to turn 1-6 to 8-8?


How many coaches have the ability to turn 4-0 to 4-9? Just one because it's only happened 1 time in NFL history.


First off Whiz has made some great and some bad choices on his staff - not all lousy or all great. The player personnel decisions have been his weak point - recent drafts have gone better than the earlier ones though.

So - held accountable - there's different levels of that and IMO you've got to evaluate the entire body of work. He hasn't been great on player personnel decisions - but if you've got a chance to make someone else like Steve Keim the man there and you have Whiz address the offensive staff the way he did the defense when firing Billy Davis and hiring Ray Horton, I'd like to take that chance for one more year.

We're not far away from being a pretty good team - O-Line improvement (in addition to what we've seen this year) and mostly improved QB play and we are contenders.


Steve Keim won't change much. Whiz still has final say on just about everything. I don't like Graves but he'll be the fall guy plus he's a cheaper buyout.

Regarding the "not far away part" well sure but we all said the same thing after last season.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
love2theOLINE wrote:
If Horton leaves maybe we can finally get Kieth Butler


So we're letting the guy who controls the strongest part of our team go?


How do we know Horton does anything as a Head Coach? How did Dick Lebeau go? What about Mike Nolan?

Two of the better defensive coordinators in the league, both complete failures as Head Coaches.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Whiz got exposed when Kurt left. Poor results, poor drafting and the inability to evaluate/develop quarterbacks along with the Offensive Line. If we stick with him we'll be in the same exact place in 2 years, NFL Purgatory.

Glad he came here but he needs to go... Loyalty is overrated, results aren't.


His coaching ability has not been exposed. His roster management and his ability to hire a coaching staff have, but as a pure head football coach he has not been exposed.

Not many head coaches can continue to hold their team and continue to have them motivated to play ball after 6 and 7 game losing streaks.


That is a major part of coaching! So he doesn't get held accountable for his mistakes?


khodder wrote:
How many coaches have the ability to turn 1-6 to 8-8?


How many coaches have the ability to turn 4-0 to 4-9? Just one because it's only happened 1 time in NFL history.


1 - Roster Management and Subordinate Coaching Staff hires are often completely handled by the Front Office. He is not a core part of coaching at all, in fact in some NFL circles it is completely separate to the duties of the Head Coach.

2 - It is a lot easier to go downhill than it is to take a team stumbling over their own feet, keep them playing hard, quality football and finish a season without much reward 7-2 over their final 9. I am not letting him off the fact that this team has taken a slide this season, but I put that much, much more on the mishandling of the quarterback position (Roster Management issue) than his coaching ability.
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apollo14000


Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Posts: 4222
Location: PA
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Whiz got exposed when Kurt left. Poor results, poor drafting and the inability to evaluate/develop quarterbacks along with the Offensive Line. If we stick with him we'll be in the same exact place in 2 years, NFL Purgatory.

Glad he came here but he needs to go... Loyalty is overrated, results aren't.


His coaching ability has not been exposed. His roster management and his ability to hire a coaching staff have, but as a pure head football coach he has not been exposed.

Not many head coaches can continue to hold their team and continue to have them motivated to play ball after 6 and 7 game losing streaks.


That is a major part of coaching! So he doesn't get held accountable for his mistakes?


khodder wrote:
How many coaches have the ability to turn 1-6 to 8-8?


How many coaches have the ability to turn 4-0 to 4-9? Just one because it's only happened 1 time in NFL history.


1 - Roster Management and Subordinate Coaching Staff hires are often completely handled by the Front Office. He is not a core part of coaching at all, in fact in some NFL circles it is completely separate to the duties of the Head Coach.

2 - It is a lot easier to go downhill than it is to take a team stumbling over their own feet, keep them playing hard, quality football and finish a season without much reward 7-2 over their final 9. I am not letting him off the fact that this team has taken a slide this season, but I put that much, much more on the mishandling of the quarterback position (Roster Management issue) than his coaching ability.


I'd be willing to let Whiz stay if he relinquishes some control over this team. Get a new OC to call plays and not be Whiz's puppet like Horton as DC. Hire Keim and give him more control over the draft process. Whiz is a good coach, a good motivator, the players love him, but the guys needs to do some serious delegating.
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DirtyDez


Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
love2theOLINE wrote:
If Horton leaves maybe we can finally get Kieth Butler


So we're letting the guy who controls the strongest part of our team go?


How do we know Horton does anything as a Head Coach? How did Dick Lebeau go? What about Mike Nolan?

Two of the better defensive coordinators in the league, both complete failures as Head Coaches.


We don't... But we do know what we have now and it's not working especially on offense. That's on Whiz, his background is offense. If we have another crappy year does he get a pass again based on excuses of the coaches around him?
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#1CARDSFAN


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperFlyTNT wrote:
#1CARDSFAN wrote:
SuperFlyTNT wrote:
Whiz doesn't get enough credit for what he did with Kurt here - Kurt had issues in NY, came here and Denny benched him for Matt Leinart. Yeah, he had a great QB, but Whiz deserves a decent amount of credit for the team management that allowed that great player to perform like he did.

It's not blind loyalty to stick with a smart coach that's had that sort of success for one more season. Especially not if some of the changes that are being talked about are made - Steve Keim made a true GM and significant changes on the offensive coaching staff.

I will say it for the 1000th time. Matt played one half and Kurt played the other multiple times. Kurt Warner was finally able to grip the ball proper with mangled fingers after experimenting with gloves. After he got used to wearing the gloves and the feel of the ball he played better then Leinart and was the starter.


OK - so what you're saying is because Kurt improved his play by being able to use gloves means Whiz deserves no credit for how he and the offense performed the years he was here?

I am saying that doesn't give a man a job for life. Plus it isn't some Kenny the Whiz miracle that Kurt Warner felt comfortable wearing gloves while he had trouble gripping the ball without them in NY with the Giants. Kurt Warner refused to give up and needed time to grow used to them and when he did he was back to his old Rams days. I don't remember old Whiz putting his neck on the line starting Kurt and benching leinart against the owners wishes.
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#1CARDSFAN


Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Whiz got exposed when Kurt left. Poor results, poor drafting and the inability to evaluate/develop quarterbacks along with the Offensive Line. If we stick with him we'll be in the same exact place in 2 years, NFL Purgatory.

Glad he came here but he needs to go... Loyalty is overrated, results aren't.


His coaching ability has not been exposed. His roster management and his ability to hire a coaching staff have, but as a pure head football coach he has not been exposed.

Not many head coaches can continue to hold their team and continue to have them motivated to play ball after 6 and 7 game losing streaks.


That is a major part of coaching! So he doesn't get held accountable for his mistakes?


khodder wrote:
How many coaches have the ability to turn 1-6 to 8-8?


How many coaches have the ability to turn 4-0 to 4-9? Just one because it's only happened 1 time in NFL history.

Good point and the long losing streaks are beginning to be the norm. How many of Whiz's wins have been against winning teams playing in the sad sack West? Anyhow I don't mind if Whiz stays but history says he will ignore QB and O line high in the draft and that cannot continue.
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#1CARDSFAN


Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 23284
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

x0x wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
x0x wrote:
Oh hell, is it that hard for you guys to give the man credit?.


Nobody regrets the Whiz signing but two seasons in 08-09' doesn't get him a pass for terrible results since then. Another 6-10 season next year and will you still defend him?



I'd probably be neutral at that point.

I strongly believe in rewarding a guy who's gotten you something big in the past.

Multiple playoff wins, as low as it may seem, is very valuable to this franchise. I remember the win against the Boys in 98 very well for example.


But to fire him this season would be moronic and shameful. The man has had to deal without a QB for three seasons.

It's not like Kurt Warner was replaced by a Carson Palmer, let alone all the other players I mentioned that left after 2009.


So Whiz has been a good coach at worst, maybe not great but good enough to deserve at least another season.


All of WHIZ's QB's have been serious busts with the exception of Kolb who is always injured. Brian ST. Pierre,Max Hall,Ryan Lindley, John Skelton. The list goes on and on.
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#1CARDSFAN


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DA has been erased officially from my memory. At least from now on. It's too painful to talk about.
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SuperFlyTNT


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:

Steve Keim won't change much. Whiz still has final say on just about everything. I don't like Graves but he'll be the fall guy plus he's a cheaper buyout.

Regarding the "not far away part" well sure but we all said the same thing after last season.


But what I said is if Steve Keim becomes a real GM - AKA "the man" on player personnel decisions. If that's the case then Whiz won't have the final say on that - he'll have input of course, but it'll be Steve Keim's butt on the line making those decisions and he'll be able to concentrate entirely on making the right ones.

I honestly think we're closer going into next year than we were this year despite the record - due mostly to modest O-Line development and improved coverage in the secondary.

No closer in QB development unfortunately - you can ask a lot of teams about how hard it is to address that though, but clearly our situation hasn't been handled well (I wonder what would have happened if Peyton would have signed with us). We can take a stab at trying to keep Kolb healthy with a better O-Line though - it's worth a shot if Kolb takes less money. Outside of that, regardless of who the coach is, Keim is going to have to identify talent to bring in at that position.
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