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khodder


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the thing with Ken, people talk about how we should have drafted a QB or OL higher so that we could develop offensively.

But it is not always as simple as it seems on the surface.

2007 - First Whis draft, had a second year QB in Matt Leainrt and Kurt Warner there as a backup too. Desperately needed offensive line and had our big time Free Agent acquisition Edgerrin James coming off an 1100+ yard season.

We went our there and we got out Left Tackle, QB was never in the picture in this draft. It just so happens that 2007 is one of the weaker first rounds in a while. There were some elite players (Thomas, Johnson, Peterson), but ~50% of that first round were/are flat busts.

2008 - Coming off an 8-8 year and the amazing finish Kurt had coming down the stretch after the Leinart injury we were looking in a solid position offensively. The OL had played pretty well our team sack percentage was good for 7th equal in the league. Edge James had another 1200 yards (Albeit at 3.8 YPC) big issue was our terrible, terrible pass defense. We still had a third year QB on the roster at this stage as our backup plan for Kurt.

A lot of us wanted Mendenhall at 16, but we went with the Cornerback to help us with out terrible pass defense, we then drafted a talented pass rusher in the second round, again the held our terrible pass defense. Nobody was too worried about our explosive offense that was putting up big points.

2009 - Coming off a Superbowl berth and another stellar Kurt Warner system QB was a bit off the radar, however this could have been a good time to bring in a QB if Ken and staff we not big on Matt (As it turned out they weren't) our running game flailed its way to just over 1100 yards total. Edge James hit a wall, Tim Hightower was not great and JJ Arrington was the third string guy. Interior offensive line might have been a goer. Our offensive line was 7th in the NFL in sack percantage (Levi Brown and Mike Gandy playing OK-Good ball at the tackle spots) where they were so often put on an island.

Back end of the first round we picked up a "falling" Beanie Wells. With the poor performance of our running game this was understanable, but what could we have done to maybe help the interior OL, or find a future QB and ride Tim Hightower on the ground.

So who could we have gone for. Next few QB's drafted - Pat White (2) Stephen McGee (4), we could have looked at Andy Levitre (2) as a Guard, but really overall most of us were quite Happy with the Wells selection.

We then picked up Busty McBusterson Cody Brown in the second round and coming off a season with 31 sacks with nobody over 5 we needed some pass rush. We could argue till the cows come home whether Cody was the right pick (Over the next two DE's selected Michael Johnson and Matt Shaughnessy) but the bototm line is I think everyone liked the pass rusher pick at the time. We then went on to pick two Guards in the last three rounds, neither stuck, but wer realised we needed to put some more bodies in the mix on the interior of the OL

2010 - Coming off a huge playoff win and then a deflating loss with Leinart playing much of the game the following week. Kurt's retirement put us in the spot to either go with Matt or draft a replacement. Defense was still a huge issue (with the 80+ points given up in the playoffs) We ranked 25th in YPA allowed on the ground and were 11th in NY/A allowed in the pasing game, I.E our 2008 investment in a CB and pass rusher in the top two rounds was paying off, but our run D was still suffering. Our Running offense however for the first time in a long time was looking very efficient and functioning well with the Wells/Hightower combination. 800 yards at 4.5 from Wells, 600 yards at 4.2 from Hightower interior OL of Wells/Sendlein/Lutui looked damn good.

**Note this is the offseason our OL plans went kaput, we lost out two best offensive linemen this season (Wells and Gandy) all in the anme of moving Levi to LT and bringing in Alan Faneca, who was behind these moves I don't know, I would assume Ken had a large part to do with it, but this was still around the time Russ had significant voice in personnel decisions**

**Note we also lost both Anquan Boldin and Karlos Dansby this offseason, but we had a solid WR corps with Early Doucet ready to step up**

So heading into the draft we could have used upgrades at one tackle spot (Gandy injury) Quarterback (Leinart uncertainty) Run defense (Nose Tackle, Inside Linebacker)

We went out and drafted Dan Williams at the nose (Which everyone loved), OT's available at that spot. Roger Saffold, who was thought of as a guard Zane Beadles, Vlad Ducasse, a whole heaping helping of crap. What QB's were there? Next QB drafted was Jimmy Clausen in the 2nd round, Colt McCoy in the third round, Mike Kafka in the 4th and then JOHN SKELTON in the 5th. Skelton was the fourth QB picked after the 1st round and the 6th in the entire draft. We knew we needed a QB to fight for a spot, but there was none really available at our picks (Same story as the year previous)

We the traded up to get Daryl Washington (Who dislikes that now) in the 2nd round.

Some would says that was a great first two rounds for us, we got two impact players on our defense and di not pass on any talent at the QB/OT spots that we wanted to fill.

2011 - We know what happened, onto the draft. We needed QB help, we needed OL help. We picked Patrick Peterson at 5th overall. Would you rather we drafted Locker, Gabbert or Ponder? Nate Solder at 5? Tyron Smith at 5? This is the biggest example yet of us going BPA in the draft. A huge shift from our thought process in 2007. Oh yeah...WE TRADED FOR KEVIN KOLB.

RB in the 2nd round confounded most of us, but who at QB or OT could we have gone after there? Ben Ijalan or Orlando Franklin at OT? Ryan Mallett and his issues at QB, Ricky Stanzi at QB? We really did not have a wealth of options there for us to pick a QB/OT outside of maybe the first round, and really how many of us are disappointed at the Peterson pick?

2012 - Riley Reiff, yes there is no doubt the argument there. It is again the Talent>Need argument. Same argument there with DeCastro. Osweiler or Russell Wilson were the next options at QB (We all know I loved Russ, but you have to look at system fit and Russ was not a good system fit here at all, and to adjust your entire offense for him puts a lot of stress on the rest of the offense around him, and then there is no guarantee he starts) We had Kolb on the roster going into his second year.

Bottom Line, we have not had the chance to draft an elite QB or even pick one up in FA or via a trade (Outside of Kolb) nor have we had the chance to make a big time pick on the offensive line. How can we begin to say that Whis has ignored QB and not drafted a QB early like he should have when in reality Whis has never actually had the chance to pull the trigger on an elite QB in the draft. He has never had the chance to pull the trigger on an elite OT in the draft outside of Levi Brown which he did do.

TL;DR - Why are we punishing Whis for not doing something he has never had the chance to do?
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a very strong argument for the people who use those as criticisms of Ken Whisenhunt, absolutely. However, it doesn't address my main criticism of Ken Whisenhunt: Using what we acquire in April in September, October, November, December and January. You don't like the QBs in the draft? Fine. You like Beanie Wells, you like Ryan Williams (I have links quoting Whiz telling BOTH players before the draft that he was going to take them), you like Anthony Sherman? Great, fantastic even. You've got up and down QB play and 2 high round, high talent RBs plus a pure run blocking FB. Our offensive gameplan based on that personnel should be a slam dunk....right? Right? Well, we all know the answer to that unfortunately.

That's Ken Whisenhunt's problem.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
That's a very strong argument for the people who use those as criticisms of Ken Whisenhunt, absolutely. However, it doesn't address my main criticism of Ken Whisenhunt: Using what we acquire in April in September, October, November, December and January. You don't like the QBs in the draft? Fine. You like Beanie Wells, you like Ryan Williams (I have links quoting Whiz telling BOTH players before the draft that he was going to take them), you like Anthony Sherman? Great, fantastic even. You've got up and down QB play and 2 high round, high talent RBs plus a pure run blocking FB. Our offensive gameplan based on that personnel should be a slam dunk....right? Right? Well, we all know the answer to that unfortunately.

That's Ken Whisenhunt's problem.


And an issue it is, schematically Ken wants to throw the ball to set up the run. He wants to force the safeties deep and then run it down the throat of a 7 man front.

It is a scheme that can and has worked in the past, but you need a passing game to be able to force the 8th man to not come downhill.

I don't think the issue is so much in the personnel not fitting what he wants to do schematically it is the he is not flexible enough to change his schematic beliefs so when your passing game is not operating to a point where the 8th man has to respect the pass, your running game is going nowhere fast too.

It does not seem like the best offensive gameplan or schematic approach, but it seems to be the one Ken favors.

I want to be on the record again saying that I am OK if Ken stays, I an OK if he is fired, however if he does stay we need to make a FO change. I am not a Ken "apologist" I am just pointing out that some of the arguments people come up for Ken not being a good Head Coach are completely invalid.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the big problem though because with our personnel how often is the passing game going to work well enough to set up our run game? Answer: Not very. So what you have then is a failing passing game and because you're passing to set up the run, a failing offense. When your offense fails, even with our defense, you usually end up falling behind on the scoreboard which leads to even MORE passing. It's a can of worms being opened because you want to use your weakest personnel group to set up the use of your best personnel group. It doesn't make much sense to me at all. That's an area where I give Whiz a large, large amount of criticism.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
That's the big problem though because with our personnel how often is the passing game going to work well enough to set up our run game? Answer: Not very. So what you have then is a failing passing game and because you're passing to set up the run, a failing offense. When your offense fails, even with our defense, you usually end up falling behind on the scoreboard which leads to even MORE passing. It's a can of worms being opened because you want to use your weakest personnel group to set up the use of your best personnel group. It doesn't make much sense to me at all. That's an area where I give Whiz a large, large amount of criticism.


Agree 100% with that, and really the biggest issue with the way he has gone about it is the lack of chances we have had to go out and grab a QB and when we got one, the lack of ability of that guy to stay on the field.
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DirtyDez


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
Here is the thing with Ken, people talk about how we should have drafted a QB or OL higher so that we could develop offensively.

But it is not always as simple as it seems on the surface.

2007 - First Whis draft, had a second year QB in Matt Leainrt and Kurt Warner there as a backup too. Desperately needed offensive line and had our big time Free Agent acquisition Edgerrin James coming off an 1100+ yard season.

We went our there and we got out Left Tackle, QB was never in the picture in this draft. It just so happens that 2007 is one of the weaker first rounds in a while. There were some elite players (Thomas, Johnson, Peterson), but ~50% of that first round were/are flat busts.

2008 - Coming off an 8-8 year and the amazing finish Kurt had coming down the stretch after the Leinart injury we were looking in a solid position offensively. The OL had played pretty well our team sack percentage was good for 7th equal in the league. Edge James had another 1200 yards (Albeit at 3.8 YPC) big issue was our terrible, terrible pass defense. We still had a third year QB on the roster at this stage as our backup plan for Kurt.

A lot of us wanted Mendenhall at 16, but we went with the Cornerback to help us with out terrible pass defense, we then drafted a talented pass rusher in the second round, again the held our terrible pass defense. Nobody was too worried about our explosive offense that was putting up big points.

2009 - Coming off a Superbowl berth and another stellar Kurt Warner system QB was a bit off the radar, however this could have been a good time to bring in a QB if Ken and staff we not big on Matt (As it turned out they weren't) our running game flailed its way to just over 1100 yards total. Edge James hit a wall, Tim Hightower was not great and JJ Arrington was the third string guy. Interior offensive line might have been a goer. Our offensive line was 7th in the NFL in sack percantage (Levi Brown and Mike Gandy playing OK-Good ball at the tackle spots) where they were so often put on an island.

Back end of the first round we picked up a "falling" Beanie Wells. With the poor performance of our running game this was understanable, but what could we have done to maybe help the interior OL, or find a future QB and ride Tim Hightower on the ground.

So who could we have gone for. Next few QB's drafted - Pat White (2) Stephen McGee (4), we could have looked at Andy Levitre (2) as a Guard, but really overall most of us were quite Happy with the Wells selection.

We then picked up Busty McBusterson Cody Brown in the second round and coming off a season with 31 sacks with nobody over 5 we needed some pass rush. We could argue till the cows come home whether Cody was the right pick (Over the next two DE's selected Michael Johnson and Matt Shaughnessy) but the bototm line is I think everyone liked the pass rusher pick at the time. We then went on to pick two Guards in the last three rounds, neither stuck, but wer realised we needed to put some more bodies in the mix on the interior of the OL

2010 - Coming off a huge playoff win and then a deflating loss with Leinart playing much of the game the following week. Kurt's retirement put us in the spot to either go with Matt or draft a replacement. Defense was still a huge issue (with the 80+ points given up in the playoffs) We ranked 25th in YPA allowed on the ground and were 11th in NY/A allowed in the pasing game, I.E our 2008 investment in a CB and pass rusher in the top two rounds was paying off, but our run D was still suffering. Our Running offense however for the first time in a long time was looking very efficient and functioning well with the Wells/Hightower combination. 800 yards at 4.5 from Wells, 600 yards at 4.2 from Hightower interior OL of Wells/Sendlein/Lutui looked damn good.

**Note this is the offseason our OL plans went kaput, we lost out two best offensive linemen this season (Wells and Gandy) all in the anme of moving Levi to LT and bringing in Alan Faneca, who was behind these moves I don't know, I would assume Ken had a large part to do with it, but this was still around the time Russ had significant voice in personnel decisions**

**Note we also lost both Anquan Boldin and Karlos Dansby this offseason, but we had a solid WR corps with Early Doucet ready to step up**

So heading into the draft we could have used upgrades at one tackle spot (Gandy injury) Quarterback (Leinart uncertainty) Run defense (Nose Tackle, Inside Linebacker)

We went out and drafted Dan Williams at the nose (Which everyone loved), OT's available at that spot. Roger Saffold, who was thought of as a guard Zane Beadles, Vlad Ducasse, a whole heaping helping of crap. What QB's were there? Next QB drafted was Jimmy Clausen in the 2nd round, Colt McCoy in the third round, Mike Kafka in the 4th and then JOHN SKELTON in the 5th. Skelton was the fourth QB picked after the 1st round and the 6th in the entire draft. We knew we needed a QB to fight for a spot, but there was none really available at our picks (Same story as the year previous)

We the traded up to get Daryl Washington (Who dislikes that now) in the 2nd round.

Some would says that was a great first two rounds for us, we got two impact players on our defense and di not pass on any talent at the QB/OT spots that we wanted to fill.

2011 - We know what happened, onto the draft. We needed QB help, we needed OL help. We picked Patrick Peterson at 5th overall. Would you rather we drafted Locker, Gabbert or Ponder? Nate Solder at 5? Tyron Smith at 5? This is the biggest example yet of us going BPA in the draft. A huge shift from our thought process in 2007. Oh yeah...WE TRADED FOR KEVIN KOLB.

RB in the 2nd round confounded most of us, but who at QB or OT could we have gone after there? Ben Ijalan or Orlando Franklin at OT? Ryan Mallett and his issues at QB, Ricky Stanzi at QB? We really did not have a wealth of options there for us to pick a QB/OT outside of maybe the first round, and really how many of us are disappointed at the Peterson pick?

2012 - Riley Reiff, yes there is no doubt the argument there. It is again the Talent>Need argument. Same argument there with DeCastro. Osweiler or Russell Wilson were the next options at QB (We all know I loved Russ, but you have to look at system fit and Russ was not a good system fit here at all, and to adjust your entire offense for him puts a lot of stress on the rest of the offense around him, and then there is no guarantee he starts) We had Kolb on the roster going into his second year.

Bottom Line, we have not had the chance to draft an elite QB or even pick one up in FA or via a trade (Outside of Kolb) nor have we had the chance to make a big time pick on the offensive line. How can we begin to say that Whis has ignored QB and not drafted a QB early like he should have when in reality Whis has never actually had the chance to pull the trigger on an elite QB in the draft. He has never had the chance to pull the trigger on an elite OT in the draft outside of Levi Brown which he did do.

TL;DR - Why are we punishing Whis for not doing something he has never had the chance to do?


I was on board with pretty much everything Whiz did because of the the 2 year playoff run... 07' gets brought up a lot but most Cards' fans weren't complaining about Levi/Peterson until AP's his rookie season. We've still had some pretty bad busts early in the draft and it's hurting us now. Even if we had a good QB (say Shaub for instance) our offense would still be extremely flawed so it's more than just the QB failure that's on Whiz.

Good post nonetheless. It's easy to complain about some things several years later. Btw did you guys on this site back in 07' really prefer someone other than Levi at #5? Even AP had some holes as a prospect and nobody believed Willis and Revis would've been arguably the best players at their position for a decade-plus...
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
That's the big problem though because with our personnel how often is the passing game going to work well enough to set up our run game? Answer: Not very. So what you have then is a failing passing game and because you're passing to set up the run, a failing offense. When your offense fails, even with our defense, you usually end up falling behind on the scoreboard which leads to even MORE passing. It's a can of worms being opened because you want to use your weakest personnel group to set up the use of your best personnel group. It doesn't make much sense to me at all. That's an area where I give Whiz a large, large amount of criticism.


Agree 100% with that, and really the biggest issue with the way he has gone about it is the lack of chances we have had to go out and grab a QB and when we got one, the lack of ability of that guy to stay on the field.


Another area where this has a damaging effect on us is defensively. Our defensive scheme is built to play against passing offenses. That's what we're built to do, beat the pass and we've done it pretty well this season I think but in our division the only way we're going to get teams to pass the ball against us a high volume rate is to either play a really tight game where 1 play could swing things or to play with a lead. We can't do either of those things if we're running our offense through our passing game. In turn, by using the pass to set up the run with the personnel we've had the past 1-2 years, we're negatively affecting not only our offense but our defense as well. It really is a can of words and it all starts with our head coach saying, "We're going to use the passing game to set everything else up". Whiz needed to do a better job of working with the personnel that he himself helped to bring in over these last 2 seasons.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
Good post nonetheless. It's easy to complain about some things several years later. Btw did you guys on this site back in 07' really prefer someone other than Levi at #5? Even AP had some holes as a prospect and nobody believed Willis and Revis would've been arguably the best players at their position for a decade-plus...


I know both me and #1cards loved Patrick Willis and Champ had him very highly regarded.

khodder wrote:
GAines Adams is also very worthy of the pick,

and As For trading down.

S would only be for Landry IMHO.

LB would only go for Willis to play Outside

OT i wouldnt touch Levi Brown with a 10 foot pole inside the top 20.
We would have to trade down with the pats and get him a 28ish. Which ill be fine with.

CB - Revis or Hall

And yes DE is a 1st round need. We have Berry and OKeafor both aging one an oft injured pro bowler the other an over acheiver.

We have the 30th ranked pass D and we have a pretty talented Secondary, so maybe we just need to be creating more Pass rush.


Post from me in January 2007. Jamaal Anderson was also widely talked about at #5.
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Last edited by khodder on Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Good post nonetheless. It's easy to complain about some things several years later. Btw did you guys on this site back in 07' really prefer someone other than Levi at #5? Even AP had some holes as a prospect and nobody believed Willis and Revis would've been arguably the best players at their position for a decade-plus...


I know both me and #1cards loved Patrick Willis and Champ had him very highly regarded.


I'd have to look it back up but I believe my big board at #5 looked like this:

1. Joe Thomas
2. Levi Brown
3. Patrick Willis
4. Gaines Adams
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khodder


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=133158&start=0

Draft Thread from 2007.
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DirtyDez


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FLASH7 wrote:
Cards' 3rd Round Pick is - BUSTER DAVIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LB - Florida State!!!!

GREAT PICK


Is this why FLASH7 stopped posting?
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
FLASH7 wrote:
Cards' 3rd Round Pick is - BUSTER DAVIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LB - Florida State!!!!

GREAT PICK


Is this why FLASH7 stopped posting?


Sad story. Loads of talent, no work ethic. That pick has also changed the way I think when I make my mock drafts.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poor ole Buster.

Waste of a talent there, a good nole gone bad.
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DirtyDez


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
FLASH7 wrote:
Cards' 3rd Round Pick is - BUSTER DAVIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LB - Florida State!!!!

GREAT PICK


Is this why FLASH7 stopped posting?


Sad story. Loads of talent, no work ethic. That pick has also changed the way I think when I make my mock drafts.


Jurecki always tells this story about Buster's car parked in the wrong spot at the facility sometime that August and they couldn't tow it for some reason. So they put the parking boot on one of his tires and he tried to drive away with the clamp on. Laughing

Champ It seems like you hated the idea of AP but still thought the Cards would pick him if available once CLE took Thomas... Did you hear from this same source that the Cards were really high on Peterson?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
FLASH7 wrote:
Cards' 3rd Round Pick is - BUSTER DAVIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LB - Florida State!!!!

GREAT PICK


Is this why FLASH7 stopped posting?


Sad story. Loads of talent, no work ethic. That pick has also changed the way I think when I make my mock drafts.


Jurecki always tells this story about Buster's car parked in the wrong spot at the facility sometime that August and they couldn't tow it for some reason. So they put the parking boot on one of his tires and he tried to drive away with the clamp on. Laughing

Champ It seems like you hated the idea of AP but still thought the Cards would pick him if available once CLE took Thomas... Did you hear from this same source that the Cards were really high on Peterson?


My personal favorite was him showing up to camp 20 pounds overweight and then complaining about not getting enough reps in the preseason.

No, that was just general worry. The only news I got from my source that year I believe was that Whiz loved Alan Branch. I believe for a while I thought we might take him at 5. Turns out we traded up to 33 instead.
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