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GEE MEN


Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 4097
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:02 pm    Post subject: The Offseason Reply with quote

If we happen not to make the playoffs I wonder whether Coughlin would chase Andy Reid for OC and dump Gilbride and I hope we dump Fewell and await Spags after N.O. cleans house. I miss the exotic zone blitz scheme of the J.Johnson legacy. Well, here is some dead weight that may walk. We could see a pretty different team. Of the group below I'd keep: Chase, Cruz, Beatty, S. Brown, DeOssie (somebody has to LS), Tracy, A. A. Brown and Boothe (but only as starting center as long as he practices shotgun snaps and we cut Bass) everyone else can walk.

Martellus Bennett TE UFA
Victor Cruz WR RFA
Kenny Phillips S UFA
Ramses Barden WR UFA
William Beatty T UFA
Travis Beckum TE UFA
Rocky Bernard DT UFA
Chase Blackburn LB UFA
Kevin Boothe G UFA
Stevie Brown S RFA
Selvish Capers T UFA
David Carr QB UFA
Michael Coe CB UFA
Jim Cordle C UFA
Domenik Hixon WR UFA
Sean Locklear T UFA
Kregg Lumpkin RB UFA
Bear Pascoe TE RFA
Ryan Torain RB UFA
Adrian Tracy DE RFA
Justin Tryon CB UFA
Lawrence Tynes K UFA
Andre Brown RB EFA
Osi U DE UFA
Brian W'spoon CB UFA
Shaun Rodgers DT UFA
Zak DeOssie LB UFA

Last time Giants brought in a few FAs was when Rocky, Boley and Canty signed. I think we need to sign 3-4 FAs this offseason including I hope: Delanie Walker TE (SF). Tough nosed TE/H-Back good blocker and stretch the field receiver Beckum never turned out to be. ( I'd give Adrien Robinson a shot at Bear's spot and see what shakes out in the draft.) I'd chase Gosder Cherrrrrrilust (Det.) to play RT and Andre Levitre (Buf) for LG and Alan Branch DT (Sea). Sign Dannell Ellerbe LB (Bal)

I'd cut Diehl, Webster, Tuck (JPP can play LDE) and Kiwi fights Ojomo for RE), cut Herz, Paysinger, Marvin Austin, Baas, Boley, T2, Da"rel Scott, Kuhn and backfill the rest of the roster.

The Redskins clearly are the darlings of the division and with Morris and RGIII the future of the division so the Giants need to get girth up front to stop the run. Our run D has been pathetic and what good are good DEs if we're soft up the middle? The only 2 DTs to survive the purge are Canty and Joseph. Signing Branch could help. The only LBs to survive are Quan and Chase. Let's go get a young K who can hit the long one and get touchbacks.

We'll see what the mocks bring. Thoughts?
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I will never defend Romo again. I'm done. We may only have a shot at the playoffs or what have you because of him, but he will NEVER put us over the hump.
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Acgott


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Giants need to go defense for every pick in the draft

Current starters for our defense that we should are probably

Boley, Webster, T2, Tuck, Osi, Canty, Blackburn, Phillips and maybe Rolle

We need a defensive player at every single position

Our only guaranteed starters are JPP, Linval Joseph, Prince

WE NEED DEFENSE
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dkebones


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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Location: Giants fan in the Seahawk's backyard...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Acgott wrote:
The Giants need to go defense for every pick in the draft

Current starters for our defense that we should are probably

Boley, Webster, T2, Tuck, Osi, Canty, Blackburn, Phillips and maybe Rolle

We need a defensive player at every single position

Our only guaranteed starters are JPP, Linval Joseph, Prince

WE NEED DEFENSE


what's your plan to fix the offense? namely, the running game?
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Acgott


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dkebones wrote:
Acgott wrote:
The Giants need to go defense for every pick in the draft

Current starters for our defense that we should are probably

Boley, Webster, T2, Tuck, Osi, Canty, Blackburn, Phillips and maybe Rolle

We need a defensive player at every single position

Our only guaranteed starters are JPP, Linval Joseph, Prince

WE NEED DEFENSE


what's your plan to fix the offense? namely, the running game?


Despite having an awful OL in which everyone played awful we still had 4.5 YPC which is good for 9th in the league.

James Brewer starts at RT, Sign either a guard or center and Boothe will play the other position
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Tehzl


Joined: 10 Apr 2012
Posts: 158
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This off season for the Giants will be fun definitely. Do you guys think Ojomo and Tracy have any serious potential? From preseason I think they were playing pretty good then came injuries.

Release:
Kenny Phillips
Travis Beckum
Rocky Bernard
David Carr
Michael Coe
Kregg Lumpkin
Keith Rivers
Justin Tryon
Selvish Capers
Jim Cordle
Osi Umenyiora
Shaun Rodgers
Brian Witherspoon
Ramses Barden

Cut:
David Diehl
Marvin Austin
Jerrel Jernigan

Bring In:
(You can fill this in)

Draft:
1. Sheldon Richardson, DT
2. David Amerson, CB
3. Shayne Skov, ILB
4. Brian Winters, OT
5. Denard Robinson, QB/RB/WR, Just kidding, Cierre Wood, RB
6. Tyrann Mathieu, CB/S
7. Nick Florence, QB

Undrafted:
Cooper Taylor, S

Also fire Perry Fewell and Gilbride, but Gilbride firing probably won't happen.
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dkebones


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tehzl wrote:
This off season for the Giants will be fun definitely.

Bring In:
(You can fill this in)


you have an awfully long list of releases and cuts to not have an idea how you fill out your team Razz
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GMENNATION


Joined: 09 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: The Offseason Reply with quote

GEE MEN wrote:
If we happen not to make the playoffs I wonder whether Coughlin would chase Andy Reid for OC and dump Gilbride and I hope we dump Fewell and await Spags after N.O. cleans house. I miss the exotic zone blitz scheme of the J.Johnson legacy. Well, here is some dead weight that may walk. We could see a pretty different team. Of the group below I'd keep: Chase, Cruz, Beatty, S. Brown, DeOssie (somebody has to LS), Tracy, A. A. Brown and Boothe (but only as starting center as long as he practices shotgun snaps and we cut Bass) everyone else can walk.


Last time Giants brought in a few FAs was when Rocky, Boley and Canty signed. I think we need to sign 3-4 FAs this offseason including I hope: Delanie Walker TE (SF). Tough nosed TE/H-Back good blocker and stretch the field receiver Beckum never turned out to be. ( I'd give Adrien Robinson a shot at Bear's spot and see what shakes out in the draft.) I'd chase Gosder Cherrrrrrilust (Det.) to play RT and Andre Levitre (Buf) for LG and Alan Branch DT (Sea). Sign Dannell Ellerbe LB (Bal)

I'd cut Diehl, Webster, Tuck (JPP can play LDE) and Kiwi fights Ojomo for RE), cut Herz, Paysinger, Marvin Austin, Baas, Boley, T2, Da"rel Scott, Kuhn and backfill the rest of the roster.

The Redskins clearly are the darlings of the division and with Morris and RGIII the future of the division so the Giants need to get girth up front to stop the run. Our run D has been pathetic and what good are good DEs if we're soft up the middle? The only 2 DTs to survive the purge are Canty and Joseph. Signing Branch could help. The only LBs to survive are Quan and Chase. Let's go get a young K who can hit the long one and get touchbacks.

We'll see what the mocks bring. Thoughts?


I think you all are overreacting bigtime and the changes you are proposing would make this team a 5 win team next year. Cutting Webster, Tuck, Baas, Boley, Kuhn? Moving Kiwi back to DE? Who is playing LB in this scenario?

To think all those FAs you mentioned will come here or that we will even go after them is insane... We've won based on a model of consistency and will continue to do so with just a few more changes that last offseason where we made close to none.

Martellus Bennett TE UFA - bring back at the right price. I believe he will not demand too much and will want to be back on a team that made him relevant for the 1st time in his career.
Victor Cruz WR RFA - proved he was not a one-hit wonder. pay the man.
Kenny Phillips S UFA - similar to T2 a year or two ago: offer a one year deal at a fair price and see if he cant stay healthy until we figure out a long-term plan.
Ramses Barden WR UFA - nice knowing ya
William Beatty T UFA - has played pretty well and shouldn't demand too high of a contract, plus we cannot afford to lose him when the other OL spots are so weak.
Travis Beckum TE UFA - I see no reason to give this man another shot.
Rocky Bernard DT UFA - possibly get a 1 year cheap deal but i doubt it.
Chase Blackburn LB UFA -I do not believe chase should be a starter on this team. He can't cover and misses too many tackles. Great guy but should not be starting.
Kevin Boothe G UFA - Has played well and is versatile enough to get a 3 year deal.
Stevie Brown S RFA - Very unexpected production out of Brown... Would love to have him back but he may want to much money
Selvish Capers T UFA - could be back on a 1 year deal
David Carr QB UFA - He will want to be here and we want him as our backup. Re-sign on a 2 year deal
Michael Coe CB UFA - Could be back to provide depth
Jim Cordle C UFA - Release
Domenik Hixon WR UFA - I imagine he will be back for ST/WR depth
Sean Locklear T UFA - Due to other pressing needs on defense, it is going to be hard to go for a RT in the draft to start right away. Re-sign Locklear to a 1-year deal and hope he can repeat his 2012 play.
Kregg Lumpkin RB UFA - Release
Bear Pascoe TE RFA - Re-sign for 2-year deal. Knows the offense, Eli comfortable with him
Ryan Torain RB UFA - possible he is resigned for depth but my guess is he will want a shot at better playing time then the giants will be willing to give him.
Adrian Tracy DE RFA - Cheap contract that could compete in training camp.
Justin Tryon CB UFA - Good veteran CB depth... I would give him a 2-year deal
Lawrence Tynes K UFA - It's been a good run but may be time to move on... Should be some decent kickers in FA.
Andre Brown RB EFA - I'm guessing they will trying to keep him but another team may pay to give him a shot.
Osi U DE UFA - His time is up in a Giants uniform
Brian W'spoon CB UFA - Released
Shaun Rodgers DT UFA - Released
Zak DeOssie LB UFA - Re-signed on a 3-year deal


Tuck, Boley and Webster each have one year left on their deals. I'm assuming Tuck will be done after next season and we certainly don't want Webster past next season. In round 1 I'm looking for BPA at one of those 3 positions.

I have the Giants taking a DE in the 1st based on the amount of quality DEs available in Round 1 but also would go DT if a solid run-stuffer is available.

In FA, I'm looking for an OT that can challenge for the RT position, possibly another CB, and a run-stuffing DT if they do not get one with a high pick. Giving Markus Kuhn another shot is not the end of the world either though. If Andre Smith slips away from the Bengals, I would make a play for him at RT. I also like the idea of Gosder Cherilus. At CB, call me crazy but I would take Mike Jenkins off the Cowboys hands at the right price. His reputation has been hurt in recent years but he is very athletic and could give us some depth.

Finally, I think its time to move Boley into the middle and give Jacquian Williams a chance to start. This is a passing league and he is our best coverage LB. He needs to stay healthy and see the field. I think this move improves our passing game greatly and will allow Kiwi to blitz a bit more from the strong side.
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NYGiantsman10


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually like the idea of Mike Jenkins a lot. He's had some success and maybe he shines here.

I really wouldnt mind seeing the Giants grab Warmack the road grading guard from Bama that kids a monster.

I think a lot of the core guys from these championship runs are pretty much at the end of their rope minus Eli. It's gonna be an interesting FA and draft period. A changing of the guard kind of.
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dkebones


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Location: Giants fan in the Seahawk's backyard...
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:11 pm    Post subject: Re: The Offseason Reply with quote

GMENNATION wrote:

I have the Giants taking a DE in the 1st based on the amount of quality DEs available in Round 1 but also would go DT if a solid run-stuffer is available.

In FA, I'm looking for an OT that can challenge for the RT position, possibly another CB, and a run-stuffing DT if they do not get one with a high pick. Giving Markus Kuhn another shot is not the end of the world either though. If Andre Smith slips away from the Bengals, I would make a play for him at RT. I also like the idea of Gosder Cherilus. At CB, call me crazy but I would take Mike Jenkins off the Cowboys hands at the right price. His reputation has been hurt in recent years but he is very athletic and could give us some depth.

Finally, I think its time to move Boley into the middle and give Jacquian Williams a chance to start. This is a passing league and he is our best coverage LB. He needs to stay healthy and see the field. I think this move improves our passing game greatly and will allow Kiwi to blitz a bit more from the strong side.


if you move Boley to middle and JW to weakside, you have arguably the worst linebacking corps in the league. Boley has played terribly when he's actually been on the field this season and is probably going to be released, freeing up $4M.

but i feel you though; it would be terrific if we could ever get a linebacker back on this team that teams actually needed to pay attention to. our linebackers have done nothing for years and it affects all other facets of the defense as well. we've relied for so long on four down linemen being able to get to and pressure the quarterback. when was the last time we had a linebacker get a sack?? and i mean i delayed blitz or stunt rush sack, not some lucky fell-into-his-lap sack?

this is a microcosm of the issues that are plaguing an aging team. nowadays this league is all about adjustments. time to see if the giants can keep up.
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fracdaddy14


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a quick roster look without doing a whole Mock Offseason yet.

So basically, that could be a realistic look at a 2013 team.

QB- Eli Manning
QB- David Carr

RB- Ahmad Bradshaw
RB- David Wilson
RB- Andre Brown
FB- Henry Hynoski

WR- Hakeem Nicks
WR- Victor Cruz
WR- Rueben Randle
WR- Domenik Hixon
WR- Brandon Tate (FA)
WR- Chad Bumphis (UDFA)

TE- Martellus Bennett
TE- Adrien Rodriguez
TE- Bear Poscoe

OL- David Baas
OL- Chris Snee
OL- Kevin Boothe
OL- Will Svitek (FA)
OL- William Beatty
OL- Brandon Mosley
OL- Dallas Thomas (Draft)
OL- Jim Cordle
OL- Geoff Schwartz (FA)

DL- Linval Joseph
DL- Chris Canty
DL- Jason Pierre-Paul
DL- Justin Tuck
DL- Datone Jones (Draft)
DL- Josh Boyd (Draft)
DL- Randy Starks (FA)
DL- Adewale Ojomo
DL- Markus Kuhn
DL- Adrian Tracy

LB- Gerald Hodges (Draft)
LB- Mathias Kiwanuka
LB- Jacquain Williams
LB- Mark Herzalich
LB- Chase Blackburn
LB- Spencer Paysinger
LB- Bruce Taylor (Draft)

DB- William Moore (FA)
DB- Antrel Rolle
DB- Prince Amukamara
DB- Corey Webster
DB- Jayron Hosley
DB- Will Hill
DB- Jordan Poyer (Draft)
DB- Stevie Brown
DB- Tyler Sash

K- Dustin Hopkins (Draft)
P- Steve Weatherford
LS- Zak DeOssie


Any questions or criticisms. I'll answer, I'll put some descriptions soon too.
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dkebones


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fracdaddy14 wrote:

Any questions or criticisms. I'll answer, I'll put some descriptions soon too.


so, just to be that guy- how would you answer my previous post re the linebacker corps? in your scenario there are no changes to the linebacker lineup (Hodges notwithstanding, and sorry if i'm not buying Coughlin letting a 3rd-ish round LBer become a playmaker).
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fracdaddy14


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dkebones wrote:
fracdaddy14 wrote:

Any questions or criticisms. I'll answer, I'll put some descriptions soon too.


so, just to be that guy- how would you answer my previous post re the linebacker corps? in your scenario there are no changes to the linebacker lineup (Hodges notwithstanding, and sorry if i'm not buying Coughlin letting a 3rd-ish round LBer become a playmaker).


To be honest, 3 LBs may be in the base defensive, but its getting more rare that 3 LBs are playing traditional roles. Just looking at the Baltimore game, the Giants played in the nickle for many plays. They also used a 4-4 defensive for the majority of snaps, but that is mainly due to secondary injuries. Basically, Kiwi keeps his elephant role as LB where he still is primarily a pass-rusher. Williams takes over as WLB. His role has exceeded Boley's already.

As far as starting a MLB, that decision is as much to do with the DC's (Fewell or his replacement) as Coughlin. They also started Greg Jones as a rookie too. Hodges fits the mold as being a solid cover LB. Honestly, the FA group at LB is terrible and the draft group will likely be gone by our 2nd round pick other than Hodges or Shayne Skov.

Honestly, this year there is little that can be done to improve much at LB, so that is why I fortified the DLine and Secondary where we can find improvements. I agree that LB needs to be improved, but I see now way to find the BPA in Round 1-2 at LB and the best FA that will be actually available is Manny Lawson. Let's improve what we can and re-evaluate next year.
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GEE MEN


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:04 am    Post subject: Re: The Offseason Reply with quote

GMENNATION wrote:
I think you all are overreacting bigtime and the changes you are proposing would make this team a 5 win team next year. Cutting Webster, Tuck, Baas, Boley, Kuhn? Moving Kiwi back to DE? Who is playing LB in this scenario?

To think all those FAs you mentioned will come here or that we will even go after them is insane... We've won based on a model of consistency and will continue to do so with just a few more changes that last offseason where we made close to none.


A couple of things. First, while I have appreciated the 2 Super Bowls that the Giants have graced us with both came at barely .500 seasons so let's not act like the Giants went in dominating with a dominating team. That right there suggests improvement is necessary. Second, the Giants have barely $2MM in cap space with what is largely a .500 team. A couple of years back Reese went on a chopping spree releasing pretty much our starting LB corp (Lavar Arrington/Carlos Emmons), our starting LT (Luke Petigout), our special teams "ace" Chad Morton, our TE Visanthe Shiancoe (who was supposed to be Shockey 2.0), our nickel CB Frank Walker, our starting K, Jay Feely, and starting RT, Bob Whittfield. That same year our starting RB (Tiki Barber) retired and we hired Spags. Safe to say that the Giants not only won more than 5 games but won the Super Bowl with a draft class that contributed mightily (7 out of Cool including Aaron Ross, Steve Smith, Jay Alford, Zak DeOssie, Michael Johnson and Ahmad Bradshaw (Adam Koets did crap).

Back in 2007 that overhaul was seen by many as an overreaction. Now I am not suggesting that if we cut everyone and this next crop of draft picks we win the Super Bowl but let's also face reality. Football years are like dog years. This Giants team got old and slow pretty fast and RGIII and the Redskins will own this division unless the Giants adjust and get younger and more speed on the roster.

Additionally, the "word around the league" is that the Giants are soft. That doesn't seem far fetched for anyone looking at how easily teams run up and down on us and how easily manhandled our OLINE gets.

Webster has lost 4 steps not 1 and now can't even locate the ball in flight. To me he's like Diehl. A beloved Giant who contributed to the team's success but not likely to shut down the other team's #1 (or 2 or 3). Webster is due $7MM next year. Pay cut? Will Webster play for the vet minimum? I doubt it. Even if he would, why would we put a CB out there that seems to be such a liability in coverage at any cost? I think Webby is gone.

Tuck. Our captain has not only been injured the past couple of years but it seems this year he also checked out mentally and early. And when he is not injured he has his hands on his knees sucking wind after the 1st defensive series and throughout the game it seems tapping out. He is due $4.5 MM next year. Perhaps he takes a pay cut. But Tuck wasn't a known quantity before the 2007 Super Bowl. Time to give Ojomo and others time to develop into the next rash of DEs.

Baas? Bad signing from the beginning. The Giants have played their best ball on the OLINE and running game when Boothe was playing center (his hiccup shotgun snaps notwithstanding). Baas usually gets manhandled and lends to the soft monniker.

Boley? Boley has played well for us. I think injuries have taken a toll on him and he also seems to have lost a step. Recently, his snaps have been significantly reduced and both he and the team suggested it wasn't due to health even when the Giants went to a 4-4-3 look. J'Quan Williams is Boley's replacement. Boley is also owed $4.25MM next year. That's a lot of money for someone who can be replaced by a younger faster version.

Kuhn? really?

Yes, getting Kiwi back to DE is the best move and I expect it to happen. The Kiwi experiment at LB hasn't reaped the type of reward expected and he is much better with his hand in the dirt than standing up.

To think the FAs I mentioned will come here or we will go after them is not as insane as you think (likely? maybe not) but look at each. TE Delanie Walker. Why is that insane? It's not like I suggested Gronkowski. Plus, SF has other big name FAs to deal with and potentially place a franchise tag on so why not consider Walker? He is a prototypical Giants type player. A player that is tough, versatile since he can play the H-back/TE position and is not only a good blocker (may even make Hynoski expendable) but the dude can line up split wide and stretch the field. He is the second coming of a Dallas Clark and someone similar to who the Giants drafted that busted (Travis Beckum). Who wouldn't want to play in NY on a team fresh off of 2 Super Bowl wins? Doesn't seem insane to me.

Gosder Cherrrrilust to play RT? Why insane? Detroit has 30 FAs (I said THIRTY!!!!) with some known quantities who they may value more than GC. They can't sign everybody. You yourself said you like the idea so why so insane?

Andre Levitre? Just last week the Bills extended their other guard who was a FA (Urbik) because he is more versatile. Will Buffalo tie up many more millions on 2 guards with other FAs to deal with? This Dude is only 26 years old. Buffalo has a couple of other known FAs to deal with as well including Jarius Byrd who they will likely franchise. Leodis McKelvin is also a FA. I think teams value DBs more than Guards. Levitre is solid not superstar and you think he wouldn't bail Buffalo to play for us a bit further south? Why so insane?

Alan Branch? Seattle has a couple of starters that are FAs as well.

The reality is that obviously there are 31 other teams likely looking at all of these players but why would the Giants have a less shot at any of these guys? When we signed Rockey, Boely and Canty was it so far fetched? None of these guys are super duper stars but in the Giants mold -- serviceable guys that address serious needs and ironically you indicated that DT was a need as well.

To quickly run through our FAs.
Marty B. I like but he has Plax syndrome. Runs lazy routes at times and dogs it. Blocking he is average and doesn't sustain blocks. I like him and his personality but we need a more solid blocker and someone who can stretch the field. Heck, Ballard seemed more of a downfield threat than Marty B. Good TE but I would take Delanie Walker 10x out of 10. Adrien Robinson can be the tree Eli looks for if he needs a tall dude.

KP was my favorite Giant for a while but Stevie Brown earned that job at FS. Even when "healthy" KP never had the impact Brown has. Unless KP signs for the vet minimum on a 1 year I'm sad to say let him walk. Trel and Brown will be the starting duo anyway.

Other than Carr (too expensive backup sign Vick to 1 year deal lol), Rocky, Coe (he plays for Dallas now), and Bear we seem to agree on everything else so doesn't seem insane.
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I will never defend Romo again. I'm done. We may only have a shot at the playoffs or what have you because of him, but he will NEVER put us over the hump.
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GEE MEN


Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 4097
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYGiantsman10 wrote:
I actually like the idea of Mike Jenkins a lot. He's had some success and maybe he shines here.

I really wouldnt mind seeing the Giants grab Warmack the road grading guard from Bama that kids a monster.

I think a lot of the core guys from these championship runs are pretty much at the end of their rope minus Eli. It's gonna be an interesting FA and draft period. A changing of the guard kind of.


I think it's more likely that the Giants sign a Sam Madison type of CB to mentor the youthfully inexperienced (Trufant). Seattle unlikely to resign Trufant and their young rooks at CB are probably the best in the league. The Giants like CBs that tackle. Jenkins is a bit soft. I can't find the clip of where he moved out of the way when Jacobs was running at him -- was pretty hysterical.

Dallas fans don't like him either lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1VBcrpCAaI
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Desperado82 wrote:
I will never defend Romo again. I'm done. We may only have a shot at the playoffs or what have you because of him, but he will NEVER put us over the hump.
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fracdaddy14


Joined: 23 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: The Offseason Reply with quote

GEE MEN wrote:
GMENNATION wrote:
I think you all are overreacting bigtime and the changes you are proposing would make this team a 5 win team next year. Cutting Webster, Tuck, Baas, Boley, Kuhn? Moving Kiwi back to DE? Who is playing LB in this scenario?

To think all those FAs you mentioned will come here or that we will even go after them is insane... We've won based on a model of consistency and will continue to do so with just a few more changes that last offseason where we made close to none.


A couple of things. First, while I have appreciated the 2 Super Bowls that the Giants have graced us with both came at barely .500 seasons so let's not act like the Giants went in dominating with a dominating team. That right there suggests improvement is necessary. Second, the Giants have barely $2MM in cap space with what is largely a .500 team. A couple of years back Reese went on a chopping spree releasing pretty much our starting LB corp (Lavar Arrington/Carlos Emmons), our starting LT (Luke Petigout), our special teams "ace" Chad Morton, our TE Visanthe Shiancoe (who was supposed to be Shockey 2.0), our nickel CB Frank Walker, our starting K, Jay Feely, and starting RT, Bob Whittfield. That same year our starting RB (Tiki Barber) retired and we hired Spags. Safe to say that the Giants not only won more than 5 games but won the Super Bowl with a draft class that contributed mightily (7 out of Cool including Aaron Ross, Steve Smith, Jay Alford, Zak DeOssie, Michael Johnson and Ahmad Bradshaw (Adam Koets did crap).

Back in 2007 that overhaul was seen by many as an overreaction. Now I am not suggesting that if we cut everyone and this next crop of draft picks we win the Super Bowl but let's also face reality. Football years are like dog years. This Giants team got old and slow pretty fast and RGIII and the Redskins will own this division unless the Giants adjust and get younger and more speed on the roster.

Additionally, the "word around the league" is that the Giants are soft. That doesn't seem far fetched for anyone looking at how easily teams run up and down on us and how easily manhandled our OLINE gets.

Webster has lost 4 steps not 1 and now can't even locate the ball in flight. To me he's like Diehl. A beloved Giant who contributed to the team's success but not likely to shut down the other team's #1 (or 2 or 3). Webster is due $7MM next year. Pay cut? Will Webster play for the vet minimum? I doubt it. Even if he would, why would we put a CB out there that seems to be such a liability in coverage at any cost? I think Webby is gone.

Tuck. Our captain has not only been injured the past couple of years but it seems this year he also checked out mentally and early. And when he is not injured he has his hands on his knees sucking wind after the 1st defensive series and throughout the game it seems tapping out. He is due $4.5 MM next year. Perhaps he takes a pay cut. But Tuck wasn't a known quantity before the 2007 Super Bowl. Time to give Ojomo and others time to develop into the next rash of DEs.

Baas? Bad signing from the beginning. The Giants have played their best ball on the OLINE and running game when Boothe was playing center (his hiccup shotgun snaps notwithstanding). Baas usually gets manhandled and lends to the soft monniker.

Boley? Boley has played well for us. I think injuries have taken a toll on him and he also seems to have lost a step. Recently, his snaps have been significantly reduced and both he and the team suggested it wasn't due to health even when the Giants went to a 4-4-3 look. J'Quan Williams is Boley's replacement. Boley is also owed $4.25MM next year. That's a lot of money for someone who can be replaced by a younger faster version.

Kuhn? really?

Yes, getting Kiwi back to DE is the best move and I expect it to happen. The Kiwi experiment at LB hasn't reaped the type of reward expected and he is much better with his hand in the dirt than standing up.

To think the FAs I mentioned will come here or we will go after them is not as insane as you think (likely? maybe not) but look at each. TE Delanie Walker. Why is that insane? It's not like I suggested Gronkowski. Plus, SF has other big name FAs to deal with and potentially place a franchise tag on so why not consider Walker? He is a prototypical Giants type player. A player that is tough, versatile since he can play the H-back/TE position and is not only a good blocker (may even make Hynoski expendable) but the dude can line up split wide and stretch the field. He is the second coming of a Dallas Clark and someone similar to who the Giants drafted that busted (Travis Beckum). Who wouldn't want to play in NY on a team fresh off of 2 Super Bowl wins? Doesn't seem insane to me.

Gosder Cherrrrilust to play RT? Why insane? Detroit has 30 FAs (I said THIRTY!!!!) with some known quantities who they may value more than GC. They can't sign everybody. You yourself said you like the idea so why so insane?

Andre Levitre? Just last week the Bills extended their other guard who was a FA (Urbik) because he is more versatile. Will Buffalo tie up many more millions on 2 guards with other FAs to deal with? This Dude is only 26 years old. Buffalo has a couple of other known FAs to deal with as well including Jarius Byrd who they will likely franchise. Leodis McKelvin is also a FA. I think teams value DBs more than Guards. Levitre is solid not superstar and you think he wouldn't bail Buffalo to play for us a bit further south? Why so insane?

Alan Branch? Seattle has a couple of starters that are FAs as well.

The reality is that obviously there are 31 other teams likely looking at all of these players but why would the Giants have a less shot at any of these guys? When we signed Rockey, Boely and Canty was it so far fetched? None of these guys are super duper stars but in the Giants mold -- serviceable guys that address serious needs and ironically you indicated that DT was a need as well.

To quickly run through our FAs.
Marty B. I like but he has Plax syndrome. Runs lazy routes at times and dogs it. Blocking he is average and doesn't sustain blocks. I like him and his personality but we need a more solid blocker and someone who can stretch the field. Heck, Ballard seemed more of a downfield threat than Marty B. Good TE but I would take Delanie Walker 10x out of 10. Adrien Robinson can be the tree Eli looks for if he needs a tall dude.

KP was my favorite Giant for a while but Stevie Brown earned that job at FS. Even when "healthy" KP never had the impact Brown has. Unless KP signs for the vet minimum on a 1 year I'm sad to say let him walk. Trel and Brown will be the starting duo anyway.

Other than Carr (too expensive backup sign Vick to 1 year deal lol), Rocky, Coe (he plays for Dallas now), and Bear we seem to agree on everything else so doesn't seem insane.


Blowing up a roster isn't so much crazy as unrealistic in the salary cap era. Take the $2 mil we are under the cap. Add $27 mil in cuts, but then Subtract $15 mil for cap hits, including Diehl. Thats just a very generous for the GMEN estimate. Our cap this year includes $2 mil hit for Brandon Jacobs. Subtract $3.5 mil for a draft class, Subtract $6 mil for Cherilus, $6 mil for LeVitre, about $2 mil for Walker, $3 mil for Branch. Do the math and we are $6 mil over, not including pay increases. If you asked all these guys u cut to take vet minimums, you'd be laughed at. The best to hope for is to restructure each to around $3-4 mil in cap hits to sign a couple medium FAs. The raiders blew up their roster last offseason in a similar way and, well, they finished 4-12.

On a side note, u have your years way mixed up. None of those guys, except the draft picks played for the GMEN in '07.
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