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Ron Rivera Will Stay as Panthers Head Coach
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Zithers


Joined: 15 Aug 2010
Posts: 2324
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

he's talking about teams with new coaches/QBs

Notable QBs from the 2011/2012 draft:
Cam Newton
Andy Dalton
Andrew Luck
Robert Griffin III
Christian Ponder
Russell Wilson
Colin Kaepernick

All of them are in the playoffs... except Cam and the Panthers. John Fox took a 4-12 team, improved four wins with Tim Tebow and won a playoff game. Did even better with Peyton Manning so far.

What do the Colts, Vikings, Bengals, Seahawks, Redskins, Broncos, and 49ers have that we don't? Is it the playcalling? Their divisions and/or schedules? Weaker conference? Are they just flukes? Do the teams just plain have more talent? I mean, these teams were all top ten picks in 2011 or 2012 (sans Seattle)... how did they become contenders before us?
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billy hoyal


Joined: 15 Nov 2010
Posts: 107
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Panthers11 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Panthers11 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Panthers11 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Panthers11 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Panthers11 wrote:
AJ23 wrote:
This fanbase is immature at best. Really more like infantile in terms of analyzing football. To say this season is the same as last season is extremely simplistic and intellectually dishonest. This season's second half team played way better than last season's second half team. The records are nearly identical, but the record is where the similarities end. But, hey... it's better to punish the coach by firing him while the team is obviously improving in their play. Besides, the Panthers aren't perennial Super Bowl contenders so let's fire the coach every two years until they are. :roll:

I know it's a little harshly put, and it's not a popular thought process... So in the words of Torch, "Flame on!"


Rivera has done nothing to keep his job. He's been awful in close games or in games against solid teams. Hope you guys are happy, I don't like the way JR handled this and if he keeps Beane as GM, I'll be furious.


He's been awful in games against solid teams? We were in almost every game we played against solid teams. WTH are you talking about?

Let me ask you something. Because I HAVE to know. With a different coach, how many wins do we have the last 2 seasons? Just a guess on your part.. Say we got some coach you wanted last season (ignoring the fact you wanted Rivera). Whats the record? What kind of team did you see us as at the start of this season? A ten win team? What?


Who cares if we played them tough? We lost almost all of them. There we go again with the moral victories. What good teams have we beaten the last two years with their starting quarterback?


YOU SAID WE WERE AWFUL AGAINST THEM! We clearly weren't awful against them. Dont try and revise history. And dont try and move the goalposts on me either. You said we have been awful against solid teams. We havent. Admit it.

And I care if we played them tough. This is a process. You want instant gratification. I want steady improvement. What I want is more realistic. And it's what we are getting.


Sorry if I worded it wrong but this seems obvious; I meant awful records in those games, which is all that matters.


It is not all that matters. This is real life. Not a Nike commercial.

What matters is we were a 2 win team and we are improving. We arent getting blown out. We are staying competetive. We are keeping games close. We played 5 division leaders in the first 9 games of the season. And all but one were a competetive game. We are on the right track. We are making headway. Of course we are taking our lumps. But the team and its staff are growing. We are competetive. We have fire. Next comes experience and execution.

2 win teams dont turn around and win 10 games a year or two later. It takes time.


I understand that.
But teams like Denver, Indy, Cindy, SF, Wash are all showing a quick turnaround is possible when things are done right.


I want you to think about it. San Fransisco showed a quick turnaround? It took them years to turn it around. Years. 2 wins. 4 wins. 7 wins. 4 wins. 7 wins. 8 wins. 6 wins. THEN they started winning.

Indy tanked their season. And also played the weakest schedule in the NFL. That isnt a guess. Thats by the numbers.

Denver was a .500 team (in the AFCW) for 6 seasons before they signed a HoF QB and racked up some wins.

This is the number of Washington Redskin wins every season since 2006.
5
9
8
4
6
5
Quick turnaround for the skins?

And Cincy is historically up and down. The last 8 seasons have been no different.

It takes time.


I'm talking about new regimes. A turn around for those teams took 1 year.
If we don't make the playoffs next year or get 8 or 9 wins do you keep him?



Barring serious injuries(mainly one to Cam), of course he has to win at least 8 games next year. No one is arguing that he has earned a 5-year contract extension. He has earned, and deserves another year to prove himself. No improvement, meaning a winning record, and it would be time to move on. But right now he's had 17 months, and has the team improving. What coach was going to take us to the playoffs next year, guaranteed? Please enlighten me.
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billy hoyal


Joined: 15 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zithers wrote:
he's talking about teams with new coaches/QBs

Notable QBs from the 2011/2012 draft:
Cam Newton
Andy Dalton
Andrew Luck
Robert Griffin III
Christian Ponder
Russell Wilson
Colin Kaepernick

All of them are in the playoffs... except Cam and the Panthers. John Fox took a 4-12 team, improved four wins with Tim Tebow and won a playoff game. Did even better with Peyton Manning so far.

What do the Colts, Vikings, Bengals, Seahawks, Redskins, Broncos, and 49ers have that we don't? Is it the playcalling? Their divisions and/or schedules? Weaker conference? Are they just flukes? Do the teams just plain have more talent? I mean, these teams were all top ten picks in 2011 or 2012 (sans Seattle)... how did they become contenders before us?



As for the Broncos last year, use your own logic. The only win over a team with a winning record was against CIN, with Orton at QB. And while they were getting 59-yard FG's to win games, we had Mare missing chip shots. This year they added one of the best QB's ever to a team with a lot less holes than CAR has.

Colts- give us that schedule and were 11-5 or 12-4 easy.

Vikings- rode a RB having an historic season, and they were 3-13 last year. Most fans wanted their coach gone before this year

Bengals- much better roster, mainly OL and DL than CAR. By far.

Seahawks- 7-9(2010)playoff win, 8-8 last year, playoffs this year. normal progression only one game a year off Rivera's pace.

Redskins- 6-10 last year with awful QB's and dominated the SB champs twice. A good QB improved them 4 games. Same as Rivera's first year with a rookie QB

49ers- that roster was loaded. They just needed a good coach. Singletary was awful. Harbaugh has been great, but their talent level is much higher, by far.



But all that is beside the point. What coach is going to make us a guaranteed playoff team next year. Who is the coach that we should dump Rivera for? That's the only issue that matters here.
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J Pep 4 Step


Joined: 01 Apr 2007
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Location: Greenvillain, NC
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zithers wrote:
he's talking about teams with new coaches/QBs

Notable QBs from the 2011/2012 draft:
Cam Newton drafted by 2-14 team
Andy Dalton drafted by 4-12 team
Andrew Luck drafted by 2-14 (tanked, easy SOS)
Robert Griffin III drafted by 5-11 team
Christian Ponder drafted by 6-10 team
Russell Wilson drafted by a 7-9 team
Colin Kaepernickdrafted by 6-10 team


So, outside Indy, nobody carried as low a record as we did.

Locker? Gabbert? Tannehill? Weeden? Foles? Are they not "notable" because they arent in the playoffs this season?

Quote:
All of them are in the playoffs... except Cam and the Panthers. John Fox took a 4-12 team, improved four wins with Tim Tebow and won a playoff game. Did even better with Peyton Manning so far.


John Fox couldnt improve the Panthers for years. But you are going to use him as some kind of argument against Rivera? Fox coached us to that 2 win season. Right?

Quote:
What do the Colts, Vikings, Bengals, Seahawks, Redskins, Broncos, and 49ers have that we don't? Is it the playcalling? Their divisions and/or schedules? Weaker conference? Are they just flukes? Do the teams just plain have more talent? I mean, these teams were all top ten picks in 2011 or 2012 (sans Seattle)... how did they become contenders before us?


The honest answer is a bit of everything. Which is why its ridiculous to lay it all on the coach. Especially when you know the players havent executed.

But I can tell you what 5 of those teams have that we dont. Peyton Manning. Adrian Peterson. The easiest schedule in the NFL. The best defense in the NFL. The 2nd best defense in the NFL.
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billy hoyal


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

posted in wrong forum...
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Zithers


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Notable QBs from the 2011/2012 draft:
Cam Newton drafted by 2-14 team
Andy Dalton drafted by 4-12 team
Andrew Luck drafted by 2-14 (tanked, easy SOS)
Robert Griffin III drafted by 5-11 team
Christian Ponder drafted by 6-10 team
Russell Wilson drafted by a 7-9 team
Colin Kaepernickdrafted by 6-10 team

So, outside Indy, nobody carried as low a record as we did.

Locker? Gabbert? Tannehill? Weeden? Foles? Are they not "notable" because they arent in the playoffs this season?


locker and foles haven't had two full seasons to start... weeden and tannehill still have another year to miss the playoffs to be even with cam. gabbert could qualify. forgot him about him. guess we have to be grouped in with the jaguars going forward.

Quote:
John Fox couldnt improve the Panthers for years. But you are going to use him as some kind of argument against Rivera? Fox coached us to that 2 win season. Right?


right. but john fox did improve the panthers in his first two years. 5 more wins and a SB appearance. with rodney peete and jake delhomme as his QBs.

Quote:
The honest answer is a bit of everything. Which is why its ridiculous to lay it all on the coach. Especially when you know the players havent executed.


it would definitely be ridiculous to blame everything on the coach. which is why i'm not doing that.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zithers wrote:

locker and foles haven't had two full seasons to start... weeden and tannehill still have another year to miss the playoffs to be even with cam. gabbert could qualify. forgot him about him. guess we have to be grouped in with the jaguars going forward.


Nice try. But you dont get to cherry pick. Include the whole group and where theyre at if you are going to try and make the point you were trying to make.

Quote:
right. but john fox did improve the panthers in his first two years. 5 more wins and a SB appearance. with rodney peete and jake delhomme as his QBs.


Well gee. Maybe we should have fired him and hired him right back. Hit his "reset button" every 2 seasons that way. That way we would have seen improvement every season. And wouldnt have had to watch the team erode around him.

Quote:
it would definitely be ridiculous to blame everything on the coach. which is why i'm not doing that.


So what else are you blaming the losses on? Just curious.
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Zithers


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:

Nice try. But you dont get to cherry pick. Include the whole group and where theyre at if you are going to try and make the point you were trying to make.


i don't see why i'd compare cam to ryan tannehill or brandon weeden. they're rookies who still get another year to be even with cam's first two years. rg3, wilson, luck... they've already made the playoffs. they've beaten cam to it. kaep, ponder, and dalton have the same starting point and are there.

Quote:
Well gee. Maybe we should have fired him and hired him right back. Hit his "reset button" every 2 seasons that way. That way we would have seen improvement every season. And wouldnt have had to watch the team erode around him.


not what i'm saying at all. just comparing the two.

Quote:

So what else are you blaming the losses on? Just curious.


cam for missing the pass against seattle. cam fumbling against atlanta. haruki nakamura (though refs should have called tony g for holding on that turner screen TD where he got trucked). josh norman not helping on that big play to roddy white. steve smith falling. refs for not saying trindon holliday didn't score. refs for screwing up the end of the dallas game. olindo mare last season. rob chudzinski this season. the OL's pass blocking. the OL's rotating lineup. brandon lafell dropping that pass against the chiefs. brad nortman and jason baker. joe adams. armanti edwards. 8 or 9 different starting trios at LB last year. captain munnerlyn and darius butler. sherrod martin. 36 players on IR.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zithers wrote:
i don't see why i'd compare cam to ryan tannehill or brandon weeden. they're rookies who still get another year to be even with cam's first two years. rg3, wilson, luck... they've already made the playoffs. they've beaten cam to it. kaep, ponder, and dalton have the same starting point and are there.


If you were interested in being objective, you would include ALL the "notable" QBs and their current success. Not just cherry pick the "notable" QBs in the playoffs.

Quote:
not what i'm saying at all. just comparing the two.


Its a poor comparison. Fox was here. He had the reigns. He went backwards. Here. With half this roster. But his success in Denver is some kind of testement tyo the failures of Rivera? Rivera inherited Fox's mess. He's trying to fix Fox's mess. If Fox is so much more capable than Rivera, why couldnt he improve THIS team?

Quote:

So what else are you blaming the losses on? Just curious.


Quote:
cam for missing the pass against seattle. cam fumbling against atlanta. haruki nakamura (though refs should have called tony g for holding on that turner screen TD where he got trucked). josh norman not helping on that big play to roddy white. steve smith falling. refs for not saying trindon holliday didn't score. refs for screwing up the end of the dallas game. olindo mare last season. rob chudzinski this season. the OL's pass blocking. the OL's rotating lineup. brandon lafell dropping that pass against the chiefs. brad nortman and jason baker. joe adams. armanti edwards. 8 or 9 different starting trios at LB last year. captain munnerlyn and darius butler. sherrod martin. 36 players on IR.


Seems like a lot of stuff utterly out of Riveras contol, even when making the right calls.
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Zithers


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah. i know. that's why i JUST said i didn't blame rivera for everything. do you know how to read?
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fretgod99


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zithers wrote:
yeah. i know. that's why i JUST said i didn't blame rivera for everything. do you know how to read?
Except your whole argument is that Rivera has been a failure as a coach for not getting us tothe playoffs. Then, you listed a bumch of reason why we're not in the playoffs, none of which have anything to do with Rivera.

And in the future, please refrain from taking potshots at other posters.
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Zithers


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm not really sure how what i said refutes the idea that rivera stinks. the bootleg against seattle and pick six against chicago never should have happened. the prevent defense against chicago and tampa never should have happened. ron rivera should have stepped in and stopped the zone read as our base offense IMMEDIATELY. the opening game of the season should have been bad enough but it lingered until we were already out of the playoffs before it finally clicked in their heads that, "hey, maybe a college offense in the NFL is a really bleeping stupid idea."

who knows how good we could have been if we'd have been operating with 2011 and december of 2012's offense all year. we'd probably be playing this weekend. the blame for that falls squarely on him. i don't understand how you let someone run that offense for so long. and i REALLY don't get how anyone can defend 2-8 in back to back years and a 2-12 record in one score games. i don't trust him to build up on december's wins because we did it last year and it resulted in nothing. plus i personally don't think we beat anyone worthwhile. every team we played down the stretch looked completely incompetent, including the #1 seed in the NFC.

the only light i see is at the end of the tunnel known as the 2013 offseason... because that is when we will finally rid our franchise of this loser.
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tbrown2699


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zithers wrote:
the only light i see is at the end of the tunnel known as the 2013 offseason... because that is when we will finally rid our franchise of this loser.

Bottom line to this discussion is that every coach deserves 3 years. That being said, this is a make or break season for the Panthers and Rivera. When Rivera was hired, my expectations were 3 years for the playoffs. At the beginning of this season, I predicted between 7-9 and 10-6. If the Panthers fired Rivera it would set both sides of the ball back a year or two. The Panthers are lacking in elite talent across the ball. Sure, they have studs at a couple positions, but for the most part they are lacking in supreme talent. Watch the Super Bowl, it will be full of studs! Rivera isn't the problem.
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rjkilla


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

too many ifs ands or buts in this thread. the fact is we're one game better than last year. which imo isn't good enough. i'm glad rivera is back but i need to see some progression from him. a killer instinct would be nice. and a crash course in clock management is needed. playoffs next year or we're looking for a new head coach
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fretgod99 wrote:
Zithers wrote:
yeah. i know. that's why i JUST said i didn't blame rivera for everything. do you know how to read?
Except your whole argument is that Rivera has been a failure as a coach for not getting us tothe playoffs. Then, you listed a bumch of reason why we're not in the playoffs, none of which have anything to do with Rivera.

And in the future, please refrain from taking potshots at other posters.


Ah, someone got the point.
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