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Woz


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
Something to consider: who was the best free agent secondary signing who was considered the top of the market? As in, player moved from team A team B (not a guy who re-signed with his own team).

I'm curious because I cannot think of someone who was the class of the market, and panned out.

Brandon Flowers might qualify I suppose. Carlos Rogers doesn't since he was a reclamation project that panned out for San Francisco.
are we talking about in the last 20 years or so?

Deion Sanders, Rod Woodson, Shawn Springs, Samari Rolle, Walt Harris, Charles Woodson, Ryan Clark, Jonathan Joseph, Nate Clemens, Terrance Newman, Leigh Boden, Jim Leonhard, Aaron Glenn, Eric Allen, Albert Lewis, Daniel Manning, Brandon Carr and imo Carlos Rogers wasn't a reclamation project, he never got the just due he should of in DC. There is more but I can't think of all that.

If you want upgrades though, you have to entertain all avenues to do so.


SHORT VERSION:
Deion Sanders and Charles Woodson were great free agent pickups. Johnathan Joseph and Brandon Carr look positive, but we need to wait and see. Walt Harris, Aaron Glenn, Leigh Bodden, and Jim Leonhard were never thought to be top-of-the-market pickups (in no small part due to the fact they weren't that good). Neither were Springs and Clark, but they did turn out to be hits. Manning wasn't thought highly of, but I don't know if he's good or bad. Rolle and Clements were free agent busts (Clements on the order of Archuleta), and Newman only made it to the free agent market well after his pull date.

EVEN SHORTER VERSION:
Be very careful picking up free agent secondary players, especially guys at the top of the market.







LONG, RAMBLING VERSION:

Deion Sanders, I'll grant you without contest. He was the top of the market two years running. When you are considered one of the best free agents ever, you'll make this list.

I cannot find out where Rod Woodson, Allen, and Lewis ranked in their respective years. I do know that Woodson spent a single year in San Francisco before going to Baltimore in '98, where he had a decent but not spectacular year as a corner. He then switched to free safety and extended his career by six years.

I would point out that Allen was first signed in 1995 by the Saints, but then was back on the market three years later to be picked up by the Raiders. Don't have any references as to why this is, but I could postulate it was due to age and performance.

I want to deal with Carlos Rogers next. When you sign a one year deal, you're a reclamation project:
Quote:
Rogers, the Redskins’ top pick (ninth overall) out of Auburn in the 2005 NFL draft, became a starter the following year with the Washington Redskins. He’d been hoping for a big contract, but reports indicate that he’ll receive $4 million-$4.25 million.


He was a gamble that paid off for the 49ers, but he certainly wasn't a top target of many teams. Remember, free agency in 2011 opened in late July, but Rogers didn't sign until August 3rd.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-cole_2011_nfl_free_agents_tracker_072511
Nnamdi Asomugha, Antonio Cromartie, Johnathan Joseph, and Ike freakin' Taylor were higher ranked than Rogers.
Quote:
The cornerback agreed to a one-year deal with the Niners. He has never quite become the great player that so many people expected, but he’s still very good, much like Taylor.





So, what of the others on your list?
OBVIOUS WINNERS
2006
Charles Woodson - 2006 was a bit of a down year for defensive backs (Nate Clements, who we'll discuss a bit later, was franchised). Per Scout.com's assessment at the time, Woodson was actually the second best behind Ty Law (Len Pasquarelli(*) disagreed and had Woodson #1 (17th overall), with Law as 47th best). Even so, Woodson was one step behind Law on Scout's big board.

Pasquarelli's take on Woodson:
Quote:
Was once a premier cover defender, but injuries have limited the former Heisman Trophy winner to 19 games in two years, and he's no longer considered elite. It will be interesting to see what kind of market is generated by a guy with just two interceptions in two years.


Remember, Woodson had been released by Oakland at the end of the season.

Football's Future's take from the same time period (he was ranked as our #1 DB):
Quote:
It is no secret that Woodson has worn out his welcome in Oakland, and will be hitting the free agent market as early as he can. The primary reason stated by Oakland management will be that Woodson's skills have eroded to the point that he is no longer worth the money it will cost to keep him. While his on the field performance has certainly slipped over the years (culminating this season with a trip to the IR for a broken right leg) the real drain on Woodson's performance is better attributed to a lack of desire, and less to a lack of talent. Don't be fooled by the claims coming out of the East Bay, Woodson still has the ability to be a number one corner. What is missing is something to ignite the fire within him, something to push him to return to that elite level. An opportunity to play for a winner again, or to return to his midwest roots, may be the impetus Woodson needs to renew his career.


Yeah, and the rest is history.(**)


LOOKING GOOD
2011
Johnathan Joseph
2012
Brandon Carr

We're still probably too close to these two's signings to be able to determine if they were hits or misses. However, right now, they look like very solid pick ups.


UNCLEAR BUT NOT TOP OF CLASS
2011
Danieal Manning - Show me any reasonable reference that makes D. Manning a top get in 2011. I'll be here.


WORKED OUT BUT NOT TOP OF CLASS
2004
Shawn Springs - Per Scout.com, Springs was the 8th best corner on the market. However, three of the guys above him were franchised (including Charles Woodson); that still meant that Scout.com thought him the 5th best available corner.

If you want a bit of a culture shock, try this: http://archive.profootballtalk.com/3-1-04through3-15-04.htm ; much better color scheme now

2006
Ryan Clark - Clark went on to have a great career in Pittsburgh (his loss really seemed to affect Sean Taylor in the 2006 campaign). That said, he was not really considered any great shakes when he was on the market. Didn't crack Len's, Scouts, or FF's list as a top defensive back.



LOSERS
MULTIPLE TIMES
Walt Harris - was on the free agency market in 2002, 2004, and 2006. None of those times did he crack any top target list.

Aaron Glenn - a four time market vet ('02, '04, '06, '07); not worth the time to discuss.

Leigh Bodden - like Glenn, if you switch teams 3 times in five years ('08, '09', '12), you're not top shelf.

Jim Leonhard - Bodden and Leonhard followed the same three years in terms of spending time on the market. At least Leonhard showed up on Football's Future "also ran" DBs. That's more than Bodden can say.

2005
Samari Rolle - He was a big get in the '05 season. His first two seasons were decent but not great. His latter two seasons were lost to injuries (he only played in 16 games (starting 15) across the last two seasons).

2007
Nate Clements - I actually thought of using Clements as a warning sign for Revis. He was THE prize in both the 2006 free agent year (when the Bills franchised him), and the 2007 year (Pasquarelli, USA Today, and Football's Future all agreed that he was the top corner on the market).

Clements signed with 49ers for then the largest paid to a defensive player (8 year/$80M/$22M guaranteed).

He lasted only four of those years. His contract was a massive millstone around the neck of the 49ers that the desperately tried to get out from under. Finally, they just took the hit and cut him.

2012
Terence Newman - Really, turtle? Newman's first trip to the free agent market was a massive disappointment. No where did he even sniff being included in the top shelf; heck FF didn't even have him in the "also-ran" category. He did get a big contract extension in 2008, but that wasn't hitting the free agent market.





(*) With the exceptions of his Eagles love-fest and his hatred of the Redskins, Pasquarelli was actually one of the better reporters in the mid-2000s. At this time, his opinion was highly sought after. Now, we can wonder why that was, but he was the main man at ESPN.

(**) Even with only being a little more than a year old, FF was already more insightful than Len.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember hearing Newman played better this year.

Ike Taylor has been a good cb.

My main point was though that there have been FA DBs signed that have worked out. You were Looking for names I provided ones I could think of off the top of my head
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Redskins Mailbag Feb. 1: Ask John

http://washingtonexaminer.com/redskins-mailbag-feb.-1-ask-john/article/2520313


Quote:


Q: As always thanks for the great work, and great ‘among the best of a tiny sample size’ shtick. What can you tell us about the role of a special teams coach? If play calling is up to the head coach, and personnel decisions are with the GM and head coach, then where does that leave the special teams coach? On a botched special teams play – whether it’s a high snap from the long snapper or a muffed punt – television producers love to cut to the special teams coach. Is he responsible for the technique of special teams players? If that’s the case, why isn’t Haslett blamed for a bad angle taken by a safety? Can you give us a quick Roy Helu update? How do you view his status entering the 2013 season? He showed flashes in 2011. Is there one position where the free agent market is stronger than the draftee market, where observers might expect the Redskins to make a foray into the free agent market? — Thanks again,
Andrew

JK: Thanks…Yes, the special teams coach is responsible for teaching the techniques, etc. Among other things, he’ll decide which way a return will go; where to place the ball on a punt or a kickoff. But ultimately it’s on the player – just as you said Jim Haslett does not get blamed when a safety misses a tackle or takes a bad angle. For example on the blocked field goals last year, players I spoke with said the guilty parties did not do as they were taught. I think the special teams coach often is singled out more in part because there just aren’t as many plays. So one bad special teams play could impact the whole game whereas the defense might be on the field for 60 or more plays.

… Helu said in early January that he still could not sprint, but that he should be ready for offseason workouts in mid-April. I worry about his durability, but if he’s healthy he’d help on third downs. Helu is more of a threat on screens than, say, Evan Royster, because of his speed.

Looks like receiver is pretty strong in free agency (Wes Welker, Dwayne Bowe, Mike Wallace, Greg Jennings) compared to the draft, though it sounds like a deep class regardless. I’ve heard the safety and corner class is pretty solid in the draft. There won’t be many solid right tackles available in free agency, but there should be solid options in the draft. Don’t forget, there are always players who get cut right before free agency.

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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://network.yardbarker.com/all_sports/article_external/fred_davis_may_not_have_a_choice_but_to_re_sign_with_the_redskins/12808843


Because of offseason troubles in the past and tearing his Achillies this past year other teams won't give him the fair deal that the red skins will. The rumor from Many is to expect Davis to return to DC.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
I remember hearing Newman played better this year.

Ike Taylor has been a good cb.

My main point was though that there have been FA DBs signed that have worked out. You were Looking for names I provided ones I could think of off the top of my head


I asked for ones that were top of the market like Revis will be. Neither Taylor nor Newman were top-market options, and you didn't even mention Ike Taylor. I did.

My point was: paying top dollar (and in this case, quarterback money) for a defensive back rarely pays off. Tread cautiously.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
http://network.yardbarker.com/all_sports/article_external/fred_davis_may_not_have_a_choice_but_to_re_sign_with_the_redskins/12808843


Because of offseason troubles in the past and tearing his Achillies this past year other teams won't give him the fair deal that the red skins will. The rumor from Many is to expect Davis to return to DC.


If you can lock up him up at below market value, then do it. I wouldn't pay him what he should make had he not blown out his Achilles simply because I think he's a chucklehead.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
I remember hearing Newman played better this year.

Ike Taylor has been a good cb.

My main point was though that there have been FA DBs signed that have worked out. You were Looking for names I provided ones I could think of off the top of my head


I asked for ones that were top of the market like Revis will be. Neither Taylor nor Newman were top-market options, and you didn't even mention Ike Taylor. I did.

My point was: paying top dollar (and in this case, quarterback money) for a defensive back rarely pays off. Tread cautiously.
definitely, but it has worked out before. That's my point and I was just spouting off names.

The reason I didn't mention Ike Taylor is that he's never left the steelers to go to another team. Since he was drafted by them in 2003, he's played every game there.

I thought you wanted free agent signings that left a team and went to another team on a big contract and worked out, well that's not ike.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
I remember hearing Newman played better this year.

Ike Taylor has been a good cb.

My main point was though that there have been FA DBs signed that have worked out. You were Looking for names I provided ones I could think of off the top of my head


I asked for ones that were top of the market like Revis will be. Neither Taylor nor Newman were top-market options, and you didn't even mention Ike Taylor. I did.

My point was: paying top dollar (and in this case, quarterback money) for a defensive back rarely pays off. Tread cautiously.
definitely, but it has worked out before. That's my point and I was just spouting off names.

The reason I didn't mention Ike Taylor is that he's never left the steelers to go to another team. Since he was drafted by them in 2003, he's played every game there.

I thought you wanted free agent signings that left a team and went to another team on a big contract and worked out, well that's not ike.


Fair enough. Ike Taylor also goes to show you do better by drafting and keeping your guy (provided you have consistency on the defense).
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
I remember hearing Newman played better this year.

Ike Taylor has been a good cb.

My main point was though that there have been FA DBs signed that have worked out. You were Looking for names I provided ones I could think of off the top of my head


I asked for ones that were top of the market like Revis will be. Neither Taylor nor Newman were top-market options, and you didn't even mention Ike Taylor. I did.

My point was: paying top dollar (and in this case, quarterback money) for a defensive back rarely pays off. Tread cautiously.
definitely, but it has worked out before. That's my point and I was just spouting off names.

The reason I didn't mention Ike Taylor is that he's never left the steelers to go to another team. Since he was drafted by them in 2003, he's played every game there.

I thought you wanted free agent signings that left a team and went to another team on a big contract and worked out, well that's not ike.


Fair enough. Ike Taylor also goes to show you do better by drafting and keeping your guy (provided you have consistency on the defense).
Definitely! No complaints there, we need to keep and develop our own as the best franchises do.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
@Rich_TandlerCSN so, Jordan Black's suspension has been lifted. Any chance Tanard Jackson's will be lifted for the offseason?


I noticed on the Washington post the other day that Jordan Black's suspension has been lifted for the offseaoson. If he remains with the team, he would still be suspended one more game next year.

This made me ask Rich Tandler if the same could be done for Tanard Jackson this offseason. I hope so, Id like to have him back and competing for one of our safety spots next season.

I will wait for his answer, and let everyone know.

Rich Tandler confirmed what rdskingm said earlier in this offseason:

Quote:
@Rich_TandlerCSN Nope. Black's was first suspension. Jackson's was his third.
06:46 PM - 09 Feb 13

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20130220/washington-redskins-offseason-preview/

Sport's Illustrated did an offseason preview for the redskins. I didn't know if anyone saw it, so I thought I would post it in my mock offseason. Very Happy

1. Feel good about Kai Forbath. He set a record hiting his first 17 field goals in the NFL. We've solved that moving forward.

2. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Whether RG3 is totally healthy or not to start the season, the offense needs to run through #46, Alfred Morris. As they said, we need to entrust Morris with the ball and that should lead us to victories. Remember, the reason why we lost to the seahawks wasn't just because of RG3's injured knee, the main reason was we abandoned Alred Morris and our running game after the 1st quarter when he and the offensive line did most of the leg work building us a 14-0 lead.

3. A troubiling stat was Fletcher's 21 missed tackles on the season. Most of this was due to his injured ankle, which he played through all season and surprisingly didn't miss a game when most players would have missed several. As Matt Gagne says in the article the team and Fletcher need to be less concerned with him playing in every game and more concerned with him staying healthy and fresh throughout the season. If he returns, we need him most in December and if we make the playoffs. More time off for Fletch earlier in the season will do wonders for him when december rolls around and will get his back ups and our younger LBs more game time to develop for their futures. Last year, Fletcher was able to recuperate during the bye week and that really propelled his play down the stretch in december:

Quote:
He led the team with 139 tackles last season and was named the NFC defensive player of the month for December. During the last five games of the regular season he had 51 tackles, three interceptions and two sacks; he also defended four passes.


Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20130220/washington-redskins-offseason-preview/#ixzz2LTYr8ZHa

Matt said on the to-do list was getting away from the natural grass field and into field turf, but as he quoted Bruce Allen, that definitely isn't happening this year, but hopefully sometime in the future it will because with Rg3 and players like Aldrick Robinson, we are going to want them to be able to use their speed on a track like surface and we don't want to deal with a bad field that could lead to injuries.

He also mentioned the secondary needing a major overhaul, which we all know must take place.

Quote:
According to Pro Football Focus, DeAngelo Hall surrendered 1,045 yards, the second highest total among all NFL cornerbacks in primary coverage.

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20130220/washington-redskins-offseason-preview/#ixzz2LTaDlyQq
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have terrible safeties, your corners will have terrible stats....end of story.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
If you have terrible safeties, your corners will have terrible stats....end of story.
he still can't cover, 30 other CBs did better than Hall, including Josh Wilson.

Quit making excuses for him
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tyler735


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with Footy on this one. The CB's while not great, are not as bad as the numbers indicate. The Safety play last year definitely didn't help, and the lack of pressure most of the year also made their job much more difficult. Getting Orakpo/Carriker back will be huge, and hopefully picking up a safety or two in the draft should help as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tyler735 wrote:
I'm with Footy on this one. The CB's while not great, are not as bad as the numbers indicate. The Safety play last year definitely didn't help, and the lack of pressure most of the year also made their job much more difficult. Getting Orakpo/Carriker back will be huge, and hopefully picking up a safety or two in the draft should help as well.
i get that, but hall is 2nd worst! It's not like he's 20th or something, he didn't play as well as Wilson did last year until the end of the year. It was obvious for those why watched the games.

There is no excuse for a player getting paid what he does to be that bad
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