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ViolentMonk71
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 2535
Location: Don Shula's front porch
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 Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Judson49 wrote: | | ViolentMonk71 wrote: | Sean Smith can be a good DB and played well at the beginning of the season against some of the better WR in the NFL, but he seemed to fade as the season went on and was exposed by lesser talent. It may be the lack of pass rush or the idea that outside of Jones there wasn't another DB that could be considered decent.
As far as attitude and character....I haven't read anything negative on him. |
He tweets "LOL" with the frequency of a Bieber infatuated 9 year old girl.
......and Omar Kelly thinks he's awesome. |
Cut him and remove his name from all records.....
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Mercury22
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 12350
Location: the 50 yard line
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| DolphWins wrote: | | Mercury22 wrote: | | fishfan4life wrote: | | Mercury22 wrote: | | While I have been one of Smith's biggest supporters, I am not convinced he is worthy of the money he is likely to get. The fact is, I don't think any of our free agents are going to be worthy of what they end up getting other than maybe, Reggie Bush. At the same time, if we don't spend to the cap it sends a message to the fans that they aren't trying as hard as they can to field a winner. I also don't think tons of free agents are going to give discounts to stay in Miami. I know its not Ireland's way, but I think we should have been negotiating with many of these guys before they became free agents. They tend to be easier to resign and the deals are usually a bit more cap friendly when done a year or so in advance. |
Yes they should of tried to resign Hartline along time ago even before the year they said they wanted him to stay and knew he was a good guy to have on the team so just sign him before he thinks he is worth more then you want to pay him. Now im not so sure I want him to be resigned for the money him and Rosenhouse are thinking |
This "highlight reel" of Hartline shows the major flaws in his game that I see. It does not include any of the games from this year, and certainly doesn't include his huge game against the Cards, but it was virtually every catch of his career up until this season.
You tell me how many tackles he breaks in the entire reel vs. how many times he does a belly-flop after the catch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=n9GqPAJlY4U
I wouldn't pay him much more than veteran minimum to retain he services. |
How many of those passes he caught from Henne and Moore were in a position for him to make YAC? Not many at all. The same was true this year as well. Tannehill has some accuracy trouble and overshot Hartline several times when he got behind coverages. We also dont consider Hartline to be a true #1 and thats the kind of attention he gets from opposing DB's when hes on the field because we have no one better to line up. |
If Hartline was better at getting separation he would get more YAC. Yards after the catch are a function of the WR not the QB. The job of the QB is to put the ball in a place where the WR can catch it. There are plenty of reasons to be hard on Henne or Moore, but you can't blame them for the lack of yards after the catch for Hartline.
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Warpticon
Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 1073
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Mercury22 wrote: | | DolphWins wrote: | | Mercury22 wrote: | | fishfan4life wrote: | | Mercury22 wrote: | | While I have been one of Smith's biggest supporters, I am not convinced he is worthy of the money he is likely to get. The fact is, I don't think any of our free agents are going to be worthy of what they end up getting other than maybe, Reggie Bush. At the same time, if we don't spend to the cap it sends a message to the fans that they aren't trying as hard as they can to field a winner. I also don't think tons of free agents are going to give discounts to stay in Miami. I know its not Ireland's way, but I think we should have been negotiating with many of these guys before they became free agents. They tend to be easier to resign and the deals are usually a bit more cap friendly when done a year or so in advance. |
Yes they should of tried to resign Hartline along time ago even before the year they said they wanted him to stay and knew he was a good guy to have on the team so just sign him before he thinks he is worth more then you want to pay him. Now im not so sure I want him to be resigned for the money him and Rosenhouse are thinking |
This "highlight reel" of Hartline shows the major flaws in his game that I see. It does not include any of the games from this year, and certainly doesn't include his huge game against the Cards, but it was virtually every catch of his career up until this season.
You tell me how many tackles he breaks in the entire reel vs. how many times he does a belly-flop after the catch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=n9GqPAJlY4U
I wouldn't pay him much more than veteran minimum to retain he services. |
How many of those passes he caught from Henne and Moore were in a position for him to make YAC? Not many at all. The same was true this year as well. Tannehill has some accuracy trouble and overshot Hartline several times when he got behind coverages. We also dont consider Hartline to be a true #1 and thats the kind of attention he gets from opposing DB's when hes on the field because we have no one better to line up. |
If Hartline was better at getting separation he would get more YAC. Yards after the catch are a function of the WR not the QB. The job of the QB is to put the ball in a place where the WR can catch it. There are plenty of reasons to be hard on Henne or Moore, but you can't blame them for the lack of yards after the catch for Hartline. |
Yeah, this is totally wrong. The QB has to put the ball where the receiver can do something with it after the catch. How you can even suggest otherwise is beyond me. |
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cddolphin
Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 4861
Location: Gainesville, FL
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| ViolentMonk71 wrote: | | Judson49 wrote: | | ViolentMonk71 wrote: | Sean Smith can be a good DB and played well at the beginning of the season against some of the better WR in the NFL, but he seemed to fade as the season went on and was exposed by lesser talent. It may be the lack of pass rush or the idea that outside of Jones there wasn't another DB that could be considered decent.
As far as attitude and character....I haven't read anything negative on him. |
He tweets "LOL" with the frequency of a Bieber infatuated 9 year old girl.
......and Omar Kelly thinks he's awesome. |
Cut him and remove his name from all records..... |
Strange that we all seem to loathe Omar Kelly, yet we all probably follow him on Twitter..
Merc, QBs have a ton to do with YAC.. ball placement and leading receivers properly makes all the difference in the world. At the end of the day, Hartline is a low end #2 receiver and I'd bet he's going to be a Dolphin next season.
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D-Z-O
Joined: 27 Dec 2012
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:01 am Post subject: |
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I thought this was a Sean Smith thread........
Anyways, Hartline will walk and become a better receiver elsewhere a-la Wes Welker.
Mark it!! |
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DoLFaN
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 937
Location: MIAMI, FL
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:54 am Post subject: |
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Sean Smith was targeted alot and got burned on soo many plays (alot of TD's and third down conversions) i dont think hes that good, definitely not a #1 corner. also, his tackling sucks and he plays soft.. he doesnt fight for the ball, has trouble locating the ball when its in the air and he tends to get beat in clutch situations..i really hope we let him walk
Reshad Jones was our best DB this year |
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Judson49
Joined: 27 Apr 2008
Posts: 528
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| D-Z-O wrote: | I thought this was a Sean Smith thread........
Anyways, Hartline will walk and become a better receiver elsewhere a-la Wes Welker.
Mark it!! |
Agreed. If Miami lets him out the door he'll be scooped up greedily by other teams and carry on producing and being a big time contributor for someone (Pats?).
We can't be getting into the position of letting players like Hartline walk. Hartline contributes. He's one of the good ones. Supplement him with better WR's so he can settle into his natural role, don't wave goodbye to him and then go searching for a reliable QB friendly possession receiver just because he doesn't burn up the turf or score TD's by the bucket load in our playmaker bereft pedestrian offense.
Then again I was in the "supplement Marshall with better receivers" camp. So we'll probably get rid of Hartline too. |
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Tetsuya_Ryuji
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 296
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Warpticon wrote: | | Mercury22 wrote: | | DolphWins wrote: | | Mercury22 wrote: | | fishfan4life wrote: | | Mercury22 wrote: | | While I have been one of Smith's biggest supporters, I am not convinced he is worthy of the money he is likely to get. The fact is, I don't think any of our free agents are going to be worthy of what they end up getting other than maybe, Reggie Bush. At the same time, if we don't spend to the cap it sends a message to the fans that they aren't trying as hard as they can to field a winner. I also don't think tons of free agents are going to give discounts to stay in Miami. I know its not Ireland's way, but I think we should have been negotiating with many of these guys before they became free agents. They tend to be easier to resign and the deals are usually a bit more cap friendly when done a year or so in advance. |
Yes they should of tried to resign Hartline along time ago even before the year they said they wanted him to stay and knew he was a good guy to have on the team so just sign him before he thinks he is worth more then you want to pay him. Now im not so sure I want him to be resigned for the money him and Rosenhouse are thinking |
This "highlight reel" of Hartline shows the major flaws in his game that I see. It does not include any of the games from this year, and certainly doesn't include his huge game against the Cards, but it was virtually every catch of his career up until this season.
You tell me how many tackles he breaks in the entire reel vs. how many times he does a belly-flop after the catch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=n9GqPAJlY4U
I wouldn't pay him much more than veteran minimum to retain he services. |
How many of those passes he caught from Henne and Moore were in a position for him to make YAC? Not many at all. The same was true this year as well. Tannehill has some accuracy trouble and overshot Hartline several times when he got behind coverages. We also dont consider Hartline to be a true #1 and thats the kind of attention he gets from opposing DB's when hes on the field because we have no one better to line up. |
If Hartline was better at getting separation he would get more YAC. Yards after the catch are a function of the WR not the QB. The job of the QB is to put the ball in a place where the WR can catch it. There are plenty of reasons to be hard on Henne or Moore, but you can't blame them for the lack of yards after the catch for Hartline. |
Yeah, this is totally wrong. The QB has to put the ball where the receiver can do something with it after the catch. How you can even suggest otherwise is beyond me. |
It has a lot to do with the QB, but I understand where he's coming from..he doesn't really break any tackles. Hartline isn't a big YAC WR, but he catches almost everything thrown his way. He's reliable, he doesn't drop passes, and he gets open.. not to mention the PI calls he frequently gets. Getting rid of him would be a huge mistake, we need to resign him, or we will be regretting it when the Pats pick him up.
We also can't forget he had the year he did going up against everyone's #1 corners. He may not be a #1 WR but he would work really well as a #2. |
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Mercury22
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 12350
Location: the 50 yard line
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| cddolphin wrote: | | ViolentMonk71 wrote: | | Judson49 wrote: | | ViolentMonk71 wrote: | Sean Smith can be a good DB and played well at the beginning of the season against some of the better WR in the NFL, but he seemed to fade as the season went on and was exposed by lesser talent. It may be the lack of pass rush or the idea that outside of Jones there wasn't another DB that could be considered decent.
As far as attitude and character....I haven't read anything negative on him. |
He tweets "LOL" with the frequency of a Bieber infatuated 9 year old girl.
......and Omar Kelly thinks he's awesome. |
Cut him and remove his name from all records..... |
Strange that we all seem to loathe Omar Kelly, yet we all probably follow him on Twitter..
Merc, QBs have a ton to do with YAC.. ball placement and leading receivers properly makes all the difference in the world. At the end of the day, Hartline is a low end #2 receiver and I'd bet he's going to be a Dolphin next season. |
It has a lot less to do with the QB than the WR. A WR's catching radius is only so much. If the ball is to be caught the QB has to get the ball in that radius. Yes, I suppose if the QB is constantly placing the ball so high that the WR has to leave his feet or so low that he has to dive for it, sure, but the fact is that most of the time you hope to get enough separation from a DB to create YAC, and when you don't get enough separation then you hope to be able to make the first guy miss. Hartline does neither. Ever.
For whatever reason people probably think I have it out for Hartline. I don't. I know he is a good locker room guy. But then again, many of us would be good locker room guys. What we need on our offense is play-makers. Hartline is the antithesis of a play-maker. He typifies our offense. Bland. Vanilla. Boring. Threat-less. Is he reliable? Sure. So is my Aunt Betty's Studebaker. We need Ferrari's and Bugatti's to compete with the best in the NFL. Hartline fits, but nowhere near the dollars being thrown around here in this forum for his worth.
Its the last I'll say on this until he is resigned or sent packing. I know I am in a very small minority on this one, but I will be extremely pissed if Hartline is given anything near what he is being projected to get in this forum.
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"22 players are involved in every football play. To value precisely the activity of one of them, it is first necessary to account for the actions of the other 21" |
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Clutch
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 2236
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Mercury22 wrote: | | cddolphin wrote: | | ViolentMonk71 wrote: | | Judson49 wrote: | | ViolentMonk71 wrote: | Sean Smith can be a good DB and played well at the beginning of the season against some of the better WR in the NFL, but he seemed to fade as the season went on and was exposed by lesser talent. It may be the lack of pass rush or the idea that outside of Jones there wasn't another DB that could be considered decent.
As far as attitude and character....I haven't read anything negative on him. |
He tweets "LOL" with the frequency of a Bieber infatuated 9 year old girl.
......and Omar Kelly thinks he's awesome. |
Cut him and remove his name from all records..... |
Strange that we all seem to loathe Omar Kelly, yet we all probably follow him on Twitter..
Merc, QBs have a ton to do with YAC.. ball placement and leading receivers properly makes all the difference in the world. At the end of the day, Hartline is a low end #2 receiver and I'd bet he's going to be a Dolphin next season. |
It has a lot less to do with the QB than the WR. A WR's catching radius is only so much. If the ball is to be caught the QB has to get the ball in that radius. Yes, I suppose if the QB is constantly placing the ball so high that the WR has to leave his feet or so low that he has to dive for it, sure, but the fact is that most of the time you hope to get enough separation from a DB to create YAC, and when you don't get enough separation then you hope to be able to make the first guy miss. Hartline does neither. Ever.
For whatever reason people probably think I have it out for Hartline. I don't. I know he is a good locker room guy. But then again, many of us would be good locker room guys. What we need on our offense is play-makers. Hartline is the antithesis of a play-maker. He typifies our offense. Bland. Vanilla. Boring. Threat-less. Is he reliable? Sure. So is my Aunt Betty's Studebaker. We need Ferrari's and Bugatti's to compete with the best in the NFL. Hartline fits, but nowhere near the dollars being thrown around here in this forum for his worth.
Its the last I'll say on this until he is resigned or sent packing. I know I am in a very small minority on this one, but I will be extremely pissed if Hartline is given anything near what he is being projected to get in this forum. |
Low end #2, but a good #3 that would create nice mismatches. I have always said, depending on the system, Hartline would be great to have as a #3 or #4 WR because he would be a matchup nightmare and the Fins could go 4 wide alot.
Sean Smith gave up more big plays than he stopped. Doesn't get enough turnovers to warrant being a middle of the road #2. Ask yourself, if/when, we play Atlanta, New Orleans, can he compete with those WR's? No way from what I have seen.
He'll get paid, but that is different from his production. Now I will say, in seeing how Jason Allen plays after he left Miami, I would like to see the fins keep him for another 2 years to see if he can really get to where he is a #1 CB. I think we are in a little bit of a pickle if we lose Vontae and Smith in same year as we don't have anything behind them that can jump into the #1 and #2 CB positions.
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Mercury22
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 12350
Location: the 50 yard line
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Clutch wrote: |
Low end #2, but a good #3 that would create nice mismatches. I have always said, depending on the system, Hartline would be great to have as a #3 or #4 WR because he would be a matchup nightmare and the Fins could go 4 wide alot.
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I agree. I'd be happy to retain him for #3 WR money and I'd be thrilled if he filled that roll. However, I believe he will seek low end #1 money and from what I can tell, the fans of this forum would be happy to pay him that kind of money. That terrifies me.
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"22 players are involved in every football play. To value precisely the activity of one of them, it is first necessary to account for the actions of the other 21" |
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SUG
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 6473
Location: Alameda, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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I'm with B67 & Merc
I had higher hopes for him but I can't justify bringing him back for a lg chunk of change.
Besides acquiring a STUD DE pass rusher should allow us to transition someone new in there.
Our pass rush has plenty of room for improvement & I'd rather a high profile ball hawking FS than paying a ton for Smith or his replacement.
sug
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cddolphin
Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 4861
Location: Gainesville, FL
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Mercury22 wrote: | | Clutch wrote: |
Low end #2, but a good #3 that would create nice mismatches. I have always said, depending on the system, Hartline would be great to have as a #3 or #4 WR because he would be a matchup nightmare and the Fins could go 4 wide alot.
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I agree. I'd be happy to retain him for #3 WR money and I'd be thrilled if he filled that roll. However, I believe he will seek low end #1 money and from what I can tell, the fans of this forum would be happy to pay him that kind of money. That terrifies me. |
If you think Hartline will get low-end #1 money from the Dolphins, when the FA WRs include Jennings, Wallace, Bowe, AND we have I believe 5 picks in the first 3 rounds to potentially pick up starting WRs...
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Mercury22
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 12350
Location: the 50 yard line
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| cddolphin wrote: | | Mercury22 wrote: | | Clutch wrote: |
Low end #2, but a good #3 that would create nice mismatches. I have always said, depending on the system, Hartline would be great to have as a #3 or #4 WR because he would be a matchup nightmare and the Fins could go 4 wide alot.
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I agree. I'd be happy to retain him for #3 WR money and I'd be thrilled if he filled that roll. However, I believe he will seek low end #1 money and from what I can tell, the fans of this forum would be happy to pay him that kind of money. That terrifies me. |
If you think Hartline will get low-end #1 money from the Dolphins, when the FA WRs include Jennings, Wallace, Bowe, AND we have I believe 5 picks in the first 3 rounds to potentially pick up starting WRs... |
I don't believe they will, I am simply suggesting that plenty of our posters view Hartline of worthy of money in the 3-4 million per year range. Which is WAY more than I believe he is worth.
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"22 players are involved in every football play. To value precisely the activity of one of them, it is first necessary to account for the actions of the other 21" |
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ViolentMonk71
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 2535
Location: Don Shula's front porch
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Mercury22 wrote: | | cddolphin wrote: | | Mercury22 wrote: | | Clutch wrote: |
Low end #2, but a good #3 that would create nice mismatches. I have always said, depending on the system, Hartline would be great to have as a #3 or #4 WR because he would be a matchup nightmare and the Fins could go 4 wide alot.
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I agree. I'd be happy to retain him for #3 WR money and I'd be thrilled if he filled that roll. However, I believe he will seek low end #1 money and from what I can tell, the fans of this forum would be happy to pay him that kind of money. That terrifies me. |
If you think Hartline will get low-end #1 money from the Dolphins, when the FA WRs include Jennings, Wallace, Bowe, AND we have I believe 5 picks in the first 3 rounds to potentially pick up starting WRs... |
I don't believe they will, I am simply suggesting that plenty of our posters view Hartline of worthy of money in the 3-4 million per year range. Which is WAY more than I believe he is worth. |
Here is the thing I don't want to see happen....Let Hatline walk then sign Jennings to 5 + million a year when there is very little difference between them....about the same size Jennings is 4 hundredths of a second faster in the 40. While Hartline may not be worth over 3 million a year....that would be a better value then Jennings at over 5 million a year.
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