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Jaguars Name David Caldwell General Manager - No To Tebow
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 46685
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speedyg wrote:
JammerHammer21 wrote:
iPwn wrote:
JammerHammer21 wrote:
Speedyg wrote:
green24 wrote:
Speedyg wrote:
In 2009, Falcons took Jerry in 1st round, Moore in the 2nd round, 55.

Jaguars took a better players in Knighton, Cox in round 3.

William Moore is a really good player.


So is Cox.


When he's healthy, which he isn't always.
Not really something you can fault a GM for though. It wasn't like he had an injury history.


Oh certainly not. But I'm just saying Moore is probably the better pick since he's now contributing at a high level. Not that Cox was a bad pick.


Regardless, the point I'm trying to make is not to say that Gene was/is better than Caldwell. All I'm saying is that, really you look at their drafts, and there's really two standouts....Jones and Ryan (though Ryan was before Gene). Other than that, you're likely splitting hairs, with edge on Falcons on some, edge on Jaguars on some.

You give Julio and Ryan to the Jaguars and the Falcons GM/scouting department are the ones looking for a job while Gene sits pretty in Jacksonville.

Also, rumor has it that he's bringing Chris Polian with him. Mad


Maybe. But Gene didn't. Instead, he traded 2 valuable picks to move up for a bum QB. He reached for Alualu who hasn't panned out as expected. Ultimately, though, the Blaine Gabbert pick is what doomed him.

Gene wasn't a terrible GM. He just wasn't good. I guess will find out if Caldwell is.

But I wouldn't make assumptions until he's in charge. The Rams hired Snead last year from the Falcons who has been amazing. They hired Devaney, also from the Falcons, before Snead who was terrible. You never really know.
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Speedyg


Joined: 10 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
Speedyg wrote:
JammerHammer21 wrote:
iPwn wrote:
JammerHammer21 wrote:
Speedyg wrote:
green24 wrote:
Speedyg wrote:
In 2009, Falcons took Jerry in 1st round, Moore in the 2nd round, 55.

Jaguars took a better players in Knighton, Cox in round 3.

William Moore is a really good player.


So is Cox.


When he's healthy, which he isn't always.
Not really something you can fault a GM for though. It wasn't like he had an injury history.


Oh certainly not. But I'm just saying Moore is probably the better pick since he's now contributing at a high level. Not that Cox was a bad pick.


Regardless, the point I'm trying to make is not to say that Gene was/is better than Caldwell. All I'm saying is that, really you look at their drafts, and there's really two standouts....Jones and Ryan (though Ryan was before Gene). Other than that, you're likely splitting hairs, with edge on Falcons on some, edge on Jaguars on some.

You give Julio and Ryan to the Jaguars and the Falcons GM/scouting department are the ones looking for a job while Gene sits pretty in Jacksonville.

Also, rumor has it that he's bringing Chris Polian with him. Mad


Maybe. But Gene didn't. Instead, he traded 2 valuable picks to move up for a bum QB. He reached for Alualu who hasn't panned out as expected. Ultimately, though, the Blaine Gabbert pick is what doomed him.

Gene wasn't a terrible GM. He just wasn't good. I guess will find out if Caldwell is.

But I wouldn't make assumptions until he's in charge. The Rams hired Snead last year from the Falcons who has been amazing. They hired Devaney, also from the Falcons, before Snead who was terrible. You never really know.


He certainly had his misses. But Ryan at #3 is a no brainer IMO. Should have went #1 to Miami.

It just makes me cringe when Caldwell's "claim to fame" is a Herschel Walker-type deal for a WR. And as good as Julio is, I don't think he was a "clean" prospect. It was a ridiculously risky deal.

Hell, you can even argue that the Falcons went all the way up to take Jones, while leaving players like Watt and Smith on the board. Course, you can also say the same with the Jags.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who cares if it was risky, if it worked out? Drafting players that work out is a good thing, regardless of how risky they looked at draft time. If a GM is able to find the risky players that worked out, why should that be viewed as anything but a good thing?

They felt they needed a game breaker WR. They targeted one, drafted him and he seems to have panned out so far. Anything else (aside from what they gave up to get him) is meaningless.

Gene hit a lot of base hits. That was his philosophy. It put a good number of "good" players on the roster, but no great ones (Cecil and Blackmon maybe will break that), having a GM that can hit the home runs and get a few Matt Ryan and Julio Jones types on this team will turn it around quickly if he can supplement them with some more base hits.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speedyg wrote:


He certainly had his misses. But Ryan at #3 is a no brainer IMO. Should have went #1 to Miami.

It just makes me cringe when Caldwell's "claim to fame" is a Herschel Walker-type deal for a WR. And as good as Julio is, I don't think he was a "clean" prospect. It was a ridiculously risky deal.

Hell, you can even argue that the Falcons went all the way up to take Jones, while leaving players like Watt and Smith on the board. Course, you can also say the same with the Jags.


If you think Ryan at #3 was a no brainer and he should have gone #1 then you don't remember the 2008 Draft. The no brainer pick at #3 was Glenn Dorsey, not Ryan.

As I just told you, trying to assume what type of GM he'll be based on what the Falcons did really has no bearing. Les Snead came from the same FO last year and has been amazing for us.
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Bad meets Evil


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speedyg wrote:
Quote:
David Caldwell enters his first season as the Falcons Director of Player Personnel in 2012. He will oversee both the college and pro scouting efforts and work closely with Falcons General Manager Thomas Dimitroff. Caldwell will also play a day-to-day role in the analysis and evaluation of the Falcons current roster while aiding in the research on how to acquire future free agents.

Prior to being promoted to Director of Player Personnel, he spent the last four seasons with the Falcons as the Director of College Scouting overseeing Atlanta’s college area and regional scouts. He also assimilated the information he received and presented it to Dimitroff with a goal of making the NFL Draft as effective as possible. Caldwell was also responsible for scouting the top talent in the country.


So, 2008-2011 He's in charge of College Scouting?

He hit on Ryan and Julio...and...who else? Where are the stars?

In 2009, Falcons took Jerry in 1st round, Moore in the 2nd round, 55.

Jaguars took a better players in Knighton, Cox in round 3.

In 2010, both teams have an equally stinkful draft, with no major impact players.

In 2011, the Falcons obviously hit big with Julio, and its likely the Jaguars struck out on Gabbert in the 1st round. But one of the picks that Gene Smith made that was highly criticized was Cecil Shorts III in the 4th round, who proved doubters wrong in 2012 by looking like a legit playmaker. No Julio, obviously, but tremendous value at the 4th round spot.

2012, which is obviously too early to judge, but who's the best pick of the Falcons (granted, they didnt have as many picks, but that's attributed to the Julio Jones selection that Caldwell reported fought for vigorously to make)? Konz?

Meanwhile, the Jags landed Blackmon who even though he started out slow, finished strong and also looked like a playmaker. Anger was a pick that was highly ridiculed, and rightfully so given the position, but he set NFL records for rookie punting. And then, with the 6th round pick, Mike Harris, who looks like a solid nickel guy (a great value).

So, in the same span that Gene Smith, a GM that has been ostracized a lot for his failures, I fail to see where the Falcons draft has been this great success, with the exception of the INCREDIBLY risky deal and selection for Julio Jones.

Then, in 2012 he gets promoted and this is what the Falcons did in his off-season as Dir of Player Personnel:

March 16, 2012: ESPN's Adam Schefter reports via his Twitter that the Falcons reached an agreement with DE John Abraham. He reports it is a three-year deal.

March 10th, 2012: ESPN sources are reporting that the Falcons have agreed to terms with former Seattle Seahawks linebacker Lofa Tatupu.

March 9th, 2012 - According to NFL Insider Jay Glazer on Twitter, the Atlanta Falcons have agreed to terms with veteran offensive guard Vince Manuwai.

March 8th, 2012 - The Falcons have re-signed RB Jason Snelling. This is yet another good re-signing this offseason. The Falcons got Snelling for three more years at just $4 million total.

March 6th, 2012 - The Falcons agreed to terms with FS Thomas Decoud

This is a top GM candidate's resume?!?!?


Resume? So, you know he handpicked every one in those drafts? We have no way of knowing what prospects he was high on or which ones he was low on. He is the top candidate because his peers around the league think he is.
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JonnyQuest


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2008 Draft Hits: Matt Ryan, Curtis Lofton, Harry Douglas, Thomas DeCoud, Kroy Biermann. You could also make a case for Sam Baker.

2009 Draft Hits: William Moore, Vance Walker

2010 Draft Hits: Sean Weatherspoon, Corey Peters, Joe Hawley

2011 Draft Hits: Julio Jones, Jazquizz Rodgers, Matt Bosher, Cliff Matthews. Akeem Dent could also blossom into a hit.

You don't have to draft stars with each pick to have a successful draft. Players like Vance Walker and Cliff Matthews were 7th rounders, yet they are great depth and contribute to the defense. What else can you ask for from a 7th rounder? Corey Peters was a no namer surprise pick. Everyone hated it at first, but he has become our best DT.
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AgentScarn


Joined: 02 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speedyg wrote:

So, 2008-2011 He's in charge of College Scouting?

He hit on Ryan and Julio...and...who else? Where are the stars?

In 2009, Falcons took Jerry in 1st round, Moore in the 2nd round, 55.

Jaguars took a better players in Knighton, Cox in round 3.

In 2010, both teams have an equally stinkful draft, with no major impact players.

In 2011, the Falcons obviously hit big with Julio, and its likely the Jaguars struck out on Gabbert in the 1st round. But one of the picks that Gene Smith made that was highly criticized was Cecil Shorts III in the 4th round, who proved doubters wrong in 2012 by looking like a legit playmaker. No Julio, obviously, but tremendous value at the 4th round spot.

2012, which is obviously too early to judge, but who's the best pick of the Falcons (granted, they didnt have as many picks, but that's attributed to the Julio Jones selection that Caldwell reported fought for vigorously to make)? Konz?

Meanwhile, the Jags landed Blackmon who even though he started out slow, finished strong and also looked like a playmaker. Anger was a pick that was highly ridiculed, and rightfully so given the position, but he set NFL records for rookie punting. And then, with the 6th round pick, Mike Harris, who looks like a solid nickel guy (a great value).

So, in the same span that Gene Smith, a GM that has been ostracized a lot for his failures, I fail to see where the Falcons draft has been this great success, with the exception of the INCREDIBLY risky deal and selection for Julio Jones.



Thomas DeCoud, Sean Weatherspoon, William Moore, Curtis Lofton (meh), Kroy Biermann Jacquizz Rogers.
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Speedyg


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JonnyQuest wrote:
2008 Draft Hits: Matt Ryan, Curtis Lofton, Harry Douglas, Thomas DeCoud, Kroy Biermann. You could also make a case for Sam Baker.

2009 Draft Hits: William Moore, Vance Walker

2010 Draft Hits: Sean Weatherspoon, Corey Peters, Joe Hawley

2011 Draft Hits: Julio Jones, Jazquizz Rodgers, Matt Bosher, Cliff Matthews. Akeem Dent could also blossom into a hit.

You don't have to draft stars with each pick to have a successful draft. Players like Vance Walker and Cliff Matthews were 7th rounders, yet they are great depth and contribute to the defense. What else can you ask for from a 7th rounder? Corey Peters was a no namer surprise pick. Everyone hated it at first, but he has become our best DT.


Gene also had those solid depth guys.

2009 featured Monroe, Knighton, Cox, Thomas
2010 - his clear worst, with Alualu a solid, but not deserving of a top 10 billing. Austen Lane is decent value for a 5th rounder.
2011 - Gabbert is headed to bust status, but Shorts looks like a major boon in the 4th.

Like I said, you take away Ryan and Jones....and I'm not sure the Falcons draft has been as good as the Jaguars.

And as I said, I'm not arguing that Jags > Falcons or Gene > Caldwell. I'm merely showcasing, it takes 1 or 2 picks to be a major HIT, and suddenly a GM looks like a genius.
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Speedyg


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:


Maybe. But Gene didn't. Instead, he traded 2 valuable picks to move up for a bum QB. He reached for Alualu who hasn't panned out as expected. Ultimately, though, the Blaine Gabbert pick is what doomed him.

Gene wasn't a terrible GM. He just wasn't good. I guess will find out if Caldwell is.

But I wouldn't make assumptions until he's in charge. The Rams hired Snead last year from the Falcons who has been amazing. They hired Devaney, also from the Falcons, before Snead who was terrible. You never really know.


In fairness, Gene wasn't in charge when Ryan was available. Also, moving up for Julio would be stupid without a QB already in the fold. He had to get his QB first (just got the wrong guy, it appears).

And also, my goodness, take a look at the available QBs in the draft since he took over in 2009!!!!

2009 - Stafford he had no shot at. Then it was Sanchez and Freeman. The last two are not long-term answers 4 years later.

2010 - Bradford again had no shot at. Rest was Tebow, Clausen, McCoy?!? Ouch

2011 - This is where the first miss occurs, with Ponder, Dalton, and Colin as possibilities. I liked Ponder coming in, but he hasn't shown to be IT either and many Vikes fans want him gone. Hell, some vikes fans want Tebow instead of Ponder. Dalton probably has shown the most consistency of the guys the Jags could have had instead of Blaine, with Colin the most flash due to his athleticism.

2012 - IMO, this is probably the main "hit" on Gene. You can afford to miss on a QB. But you can't miss on a QB because of a Punter. Russell Wilson, meet Bryan Anger.
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Speedyg


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Who cares if it was risky, if it worked out? Drafting players that work out is a good thing, regardless of how risky they looked at draft time. If a GM is able to find the risky players that worked out, why should that be viewed as anything but a good thing?

They felt they needed a game breaker WR. They targeted one, drafted him and he seems to have panned out so far. Anything else (aside from what they gave up to get him) is meaningless.

Gene hit a lot of base hits. That was his philosophy. It put a good number of "good" players on the roster, but no great ones (Cecil and Blackmon maybe will break that), having a GM that can hit the home runs and get a few Matt Ryan and Julio Jones types on this team will turn it around quickly if he can supplement them with some more base hits.


I'm not discounting it. But if your claim to fame is trading a boat-load of picks for a WR? I don't feel good about that, at all, because that's a risk that you lose majority of the time.

Did they need a game breaking WR? I guess, though I can argue they also needed a game-breaking pass-rusher since they spent a boatload of money on Edwards who flopped.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speedyg wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Who cares if it was risky, if it worked out? Drafting players that work out is a good thing, regardless of how risky they looked at draft time. If a GM is able to find the risky players that worked out, why should that be viewed as anything but a good thing?

They felt they needed a game breaker WR. They targeted one, drafted him and he seems to have panned out so far. Anything else (aside from what they gave up to get him) is meaningless.

Gene hit a lot of base hits. That was his philosophy. It put a good number of "good" players on the roster, but no great ones (Cecil and Blackmon maybe will break that), having a GM that can hit the home runs and get a few Matt Ryan and Julio Jones types on this team will turn it around quickly if he can supplement them with some more base hits.


I'm not discounting it. But if your claim to fame is trading a boat-load of picks for a WR? I don't feel good about that, at all, because that's a risk that you lose majority of the time.

Did they need a game breaking WR? I guess, though I can argue they also needed a game-breaking pass-rusher since they spent a boatload of money on Edwards who flopped.


Maybe he didn't lose because he's actually good at evaluating talent and knew it would work out?
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speedyg wrote:
jrry32 wrote:


Maybe. But Gene didn't. Instead, he traded 2 valuable picks to move up for a bum QB. He reached for Alualu who hasn't panned out as expected. Ultimately, though, the Blaine Gabbert pick is what doomed him.

Gene wasn't a terrible GM. He just wasn't good. I guess will find out if Caldwell is.

But I wouldn't make assumptions until he's in charge. The Rams hired Snead last year from the Falcons who has been amazing. They hired Devaney, also from the Falcons, before Snead who was terrible. You never really know.


In fairness, Gene wasn't in charge when Ryan was available. Also, moving up for Julio would be stupid without a QB already in the fold. He had to get his QB first (just got the wrong guy, it appears).

And also, my goodness, take a look at the available QBs in the draft since he took over in 2009!!!!

2009 - Stafford he had no shot at. Then it was Sanchez and Freeman. The last two are not long-term answers 4 years later.

2010 - Bradford again had no shot at. Rest was Tebow, Clausen, McCoy?!? Ouch

2011 - This is where the first miss occurs, with Ponder, Dalton, and Colin as possibilities. I liked Ponder coming in, but he hasn't shown to be IT either and many Vikes fans want him gone. Hell, some vikes fans want Tebow instead of Ponder. Dalton probably has shown the most consistency of the guys the Jags could have had instead of Blaine, with Colin the most flash due to his athleticism.

2012 - IMO, this is probably the main "hit" on Gene. You can afford to miss on a QB. But you can't miss on a QB because of a Punter. Russell Wilson, meet Bryan Anger.


So your argument is that Smith didn't have a lot of great QBs available so it's acceptable that he traded two valuable picks for a terrible QB?

Not buying it. You live and die by your QB as GM the majority of the time. The fact that Gene used that pick on Blaine Gabbert speaks volumes. And you can't claim I'm being hypocritical. I hated the Gabbert pick from day 1 and thought he was not a first round prospect.
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Harper41 wrote:
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patman


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you not ignoring the fact that the jags pick 20 places earlier in the 1st each year.
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stallyns


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I seen his name I thought it sounded familiar. He was a college scout for the Colts before going to Atlanta. For a couple years before he left Polian was already flailing at the draft so he wasn't a real big loss for us.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stallyns wrote:
When I seen his name I thought it sounded familiar. He was a college scout for the Colts before going to Atlanta. For a couple years before he left Polian was already flailing at the draft so he wasn't a real big loss for us.
Started his career with the Cinderella season Panthers, then moved on to the Colts the year they drafted Peyton. Then moved on to the Falcons to draft Matt Ryan.
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