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Matts4313
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 41042
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of 12
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 Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| lionslicer wrote: | Kiffin's defense isn't bad, he just refuses to adapt. With the right personnel, the Tampa 2 is very dangerous, but he never got that personnel in college. I don't know if he can get it with Dallas, I don't know their roster situation or who they will draft/bring in with free agency.
I don't like the idea of Ware as a full time defensive end (he's actually gotten pretty good in pass coverage compared to other 3-4 OLBs), but with Tampa Kiffin used defensive ends in zone a fair amount, so it's not like Ware will be playing a completely new position. |
| Quote: | Clarence Hill @clarencehilljr
Kiffen talked to Garrett and Jones at Valley Ranch today, believes Dware can play end. Whats true is you won't see him in coverage anymore
Per a source, if Kiffen comes to Dallas..he will not force cover 2 scheme in secondary..will let Carr and Claiborne do what they do best |
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| Shockey1979 wrote: | Matts going ham in General Forum  |
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SHONUFF
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Posts: 3348
Location: fairfield, Ca
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:37 pm Post subject: 4-3 under |
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Caroll learned the 4-3 under concepts from Kiffin at Arkansas in 1977 and built on it from there. Kiffin moved on to more cover two stuff, frankly I'd try and lure away Norton Jr..
Heres a link to a transcript of a lecture Caroll gave about it, but Kiffin might have other plans. Pretty interesting.
http://trojanfootballanalysis.com/?p=308
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Last edited by SHONUFF on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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lionslicer
Joined: 06 Nov 2010
Posts: 1815
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Matts4313 wrote: | | lionslicer wrote: | Kiffin's defense isn't bad, he just refuses to adapt. With the right personnel, the Tampa 2 is very dangerous, but he never got that personnel in college. I don't know if he can get it with Dallas, I don't know their roster situation or who they will draft/bring in with free agency.
I don't like the idea of Ware as a full time defensive end (he's actually gotten pretty good in pass coverage compared to other 3-4 OLBs), but with Tampa Kiffin used defensive ends in zone a fair amount, so it's not like Ware will be playing a completely new position. |
| Quote: | Clarence Hill @clarencehilljr
Kiffen talked to Garrett and Jones at Valley Ranch today, believes Dware can play end. Whats true is you won't see him in coverage anymore
Per a source, if Kiffen comes to Dallas..he will not force cover 2 scheme in secondary..will let Carr and Claiborne do what they do best |
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We'll see how that works out...
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Matts4313
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 41042
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of 12
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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My hope is that we run an Defense very similar to the Seahawks. I think we have the personnel to make that work, easily.
Hopefully Kiffin has been keeping up with his protege's and can implement some of those ideas.
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| Shockey1979 wrote: | | Matts going ham in General Forum |
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BroncoBruin
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Posts: 11642
Location: Santa Clarita, CA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| TheVillain112 wrote: | | JammerHammer21 wrote: | | Why are people saying Kiffin has lost it? Maybe his D doesn't work in the Pac 12, but the NFL doesn't run Pac 12 offenses. Plus, the D really isn't that great, as their talent was overrated IMO. |
Stanford and UCLA would disagree... |
UCLA?
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| jsthomp2007 wrote: | | We have to keep in mind that Rob Bironas is dead, but might be an upgrade over McMannus. |
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TheVillain112
Joined: 19 Feb 2010
Posts: 17580
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| BroncoBruin wrote: | | TheVillain112 wrote: | | JammerHammer21 wrote: | | Why are people saying Kiffin has lost it? Maybe his D doesn't work in the Pac 12, but the NFL doesn't run Pac 12 offenses. Plus, the D really isn't that great, as their talent was overrated IMO. |
Stanford and UCLA would disagree... |
UCLA? |
From the games I've seen their offense doesn't seem that gimmicky (correct me if I'm wrong though). Spread but a lot of runs with Franklin. I wouldn't put them in the same category as the other PAC 12 offenses like Oregon... |
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MNPackfan32
Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 8618
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| nicfre2011 wrote: | | As a Chiefs fan, I am glad he "rejected" the Chiefs. Now we need to hire John Dorsey as our GM and start to raid the Green Bay coaching staff.....Darren Perry as our DC would be nice. |
GTFO. Keep your hands off our staff! Tell Andy to bring Juan with him 
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Dboys88-82
Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Posts: 1761
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Matts4313 wrote: | My hope is that we run an Defense very similar to the Seahawks. I think we have the personnel to make that work, easily.
Hopefully Kiffin has been keeping up with his protege's and can implement some of those ideas. |
Agreed. I also like a front that features:
Ware--lissemore--ratliff---hatcher
carter--lee--unknown
I know many people view hatcher as a DT in the 4-3 and while im sure he can play well inside i think the goal should be getting our best defensive linemen out there and that would be what i have above. Until the past year or so Hatcher was always undersized for the 3-4 defensive end spot, so i dont think it will be too hard for him to slim back down a bit.
As far as the "unknown" location im going to throw a few names out here: albright, wilber, connor, orie lemon. |
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jrry32
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 51879
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Matts4313 wrote: | My hope is that we run an Defense very similar to the Seahawks. I think we have the personnel to make that work, easily.
Hopefully Kiffin has been keeping up with his protege's and can implement some of those ideas. |
Honestly, I'm not sure you do. To do what they're doing, you need a FS with elite range and a #1 CB who is comfortable on an island.
Even if you go away from what they've done this year(which is a lot of island type coverage with Sherman), you still need a FS with amazing range.
Earl Thomas really allows them to do so much with their scheme and allows a lot of freedom in that scheme. It's really fun to watch and analyze that scheme.
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| KingBishop wrote: | | JammerHammer21 wrote: | | Jarvis looked like a slug on and off the field. |
Off the field? Like when he is grocery shopping, does he block the freezer aisle with his sluggish selection of which hungry man to buy? |
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Texas_OutLaw7
Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 25526
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of '12
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| jrry32 wrote: | | Matts4313 wrote: | My hope is that we run an Defense very similar to the Seahawks. I think we have the personnel to make that work, easily.
Hopefully Kiffin has been keeping up with his protege's and can implement some of those ideas. |
Honestly, I'm not sure you do. To do what they're doing, you need a FS with elite range and a #1 CB who is comfortable on an island.
Even if you go away from what they've done this year(which is a lot of island type coverage with Sherman), you still need a FS with amazing range.
Earl Thomas really allows them to do so much with their scheme and allows a lot of freedom in that scheme. It's really fun to watch and analyze that scheme. |
SEE Matts. S because a huge need.
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Matts4313
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 41042
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of 12
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Matts4313 wrote: | | Quote: | Carlos A. Mendez @calexmendez
Sources are talking up Kiffen. Sign that this is as good as done. IMO.
Great job by @NFLCharean tracking down some former Bucs to talk about Kiffin. Now we need a @WarrenSapp weigh-in.
mike fisher @fishsports
#Cowboys source tells me: 'Why hire guys who learned the 4-3 from Kiffin when you can just hire Kiffin himself?’
My USC guy who is not a Kiffin lover concedes that coach worked *** off every day at practice. Teacher, hands-on, big energy. #Cowboys
Clarence Hill @clarencehilljr
Last time Kiffen coached Bucs in 2008. his D had 22 INT"s and 29 sacks. Allowed 20.2 points a game. Only allowed 3 300+ yard
Per a source, Jerry has expressed an interest in getting back to the fundamentals. They don't get more technique oriented than Monte
Todd Archer @toddarcher
I don't see a big switch in a move by Cowboys from 3-4 to 4-3. Was harder to go from 4-3 to 3-4 IMO
Charean Williams @NFLCharean
I covered Monte Kiffin 4 years when he was DC of the Bucs under Dungy. Defense ranked top 10 in points all but 1 yr. in his 13 there
I have never been around a more enthusiastic coach than Kiffin. He and Jerome Henderson would hit it off.
Rafael Vela @CowboysNation1
From stories today it appears Ray Horton is being held to the 1 yr on his Cards contract, whether he's HC or DC. Dallas not getting shot
Bob Sturm @SportsSturm
I must admit, on the Mt Rushmore of modern day defensive minds, Monte Kiffin is prominently displayed. Few have caused the chaos he has.
He is proven and decorated. Gave the Favre-Packers bigger fits than anyone in NFC-C days. Wonder if the fire burns bright. If so, not bad. |
| Quote: | "For the most part, all he's doing is going after the quarterback," Brooks said. "We know [Ware] can do that."
The Bucs had John Lynch at safety, Warren Sapp at defensive tackle, Brooks at linebacker, Ronde Barber at corner to go along with Rice. Sapp and Lynch are Hall of Fame candidates this year.
That is a big reason in 13 years in Tampa, Kiffin's defenses ranked in the top 10 in total defense all but two years -- 11th in 1997 and 17th in 2006 -- and top 10 in fewest points allowed for all but 2006 (21st). Six times they ranked in the top 10 in takeaways.
Kiffin also had top assistants in guys like Rod Marinelli, Lovie Smith, Joe Berry, Mike Tomlin, Herm Edwards.
Read more here: http://sportsblogs.star-telegram.com/cowboys/2013/01/derrick-brooks-monte-kiffin-is-motivated-to-earn-his-reputation-back.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy |
| Quote: | "Monte was one of the finest coaches in any sport, at any level I have ever been around," said Lynch, who had 541 tackles, seven forced fumbles and 23 interceptions in 11 years with the Bucs. "I think what he did was revolutionary on defense in terms of what we did. I think the beauty of it was the simplicity. We didn't try to trick people. He believed in doing a few things and doing them, and learning the intricacies so well that it was kind of a deal where, 'Hereit is. Go ahead and stop it.' You have to great players to do that. I know that. At times that seemed to denigrate the role of the coordinator, but I thought to the contrary. I thought that was brilliance of him."
Read more here: http://sportsblogs.star-telegram.com/cowboys/2013/01/john-lynch-the-beauty-of-monte-kiffins-defense-is-in-its-simplicity.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy |
| Quote: | Tony Dungy had been a converted quarterback turned defensive back playing for the Steel Curtain under Bud Carson. He watched Carson use his athletic linebackers and physical defensive backs in zone coverage behind a devastating four-man rush in the 1970s. He was struck by Carson’s idea to drop his middle linebacker into the deep middle to assist his safeties in coverage while allowing his quick and instinctive outside linebacker to assume more underneath responsibility.
Monte Kiffin had successfully adapted the 4-3 Under defense while a defensive coordinator at Nebraska and Arkansas to aggressively stop the run and generate a strong pass rush with a read-on-the-run philosophy. Collaborating with Floyd Peters, another believer in the 4-3 Under, with the Minnesota Vikings in the late 1980s, Kiffin helped make stars out of DT Keith Millard and DE Chris Doleman.
In 1992, Dungy and Kiffin found themselves on the same defensive staff in Minnesota under Dennis Green. You can imagine the discussions in the Vikings’ coaching offices. Dungy had seen firsthand how dropping the middle linebacker into the deep middle addressed many of the coverage weaknesses in the Cover-2. He also well knew what kind of defensive linemen it took to make the system successful and knew that the Stunt 4-3 that drove much of the success of the Steel Curtain was hard to run without four elite linemen. Running the 4-3 Under had generated nearly 40 sacks in one season for Kiffin’s duo of Millard and Doleman. Pairing the 4-3 Under (and Over) with the Carson Cover-2 tweaks seemed a perfect match.
http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/guide-to-n-f-l-defenses-part-3-the-4-3-front-continued/ |
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| Shockey1979 wrote: | | Matts going ham in General Forum |
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RainbowCarebear
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 39186
Location: "Are you hungry, child?" Yes, she thought, but not for food.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:02 am Post subject: |
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Heard he's senile. I wouldn't mind that.
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"We have the Dallas forum"
"We have a Dane" |
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RoeKG
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 4336
Location: PA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:20 am Post subject: |
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Assuming Kiffin would keep the Tampa-2 system, I think this would be a bad move for the Cowboys.
It'll force Ware into a 4-3 spot which I'm sure he's capable of, but when you have a top pass rusher, why change things? Who will play the opposite DE spot, because isn't Spencer a FA after this season?
Lee and Carter would fit in really well, but having Brandon Carr and Morris Claiborne play in a zone system seems like a massive waste of their abilities.
I'm not saying it wouldn't work for them, and I don't even know how Kiffin would adapt, but it doesn't seem like the right move. |
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Hiero
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 8005
Location: Midtown Sacramento
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| RoeKG wrote: | Assuming Kiffin would keep the Tampa-2 system, I think this would be a bad move for the Cowboys.
It'll force Ware into a 4-3 spot which I'm sure he's capable of, but when you have a top pass rusher, why change things? Who will play the opposite DE spot, because isn't Spencer a FA after this season?
Lee and Carter would fit in really well, but having Brandon Carr and Morris Claiborne play in a zone system seems like a massive waste of their abilities.
I'm not saying it wouldn't work for them, and I don't even know how Kiffin would adapt, but it doesn't seem like the right move. |
so you're saying that having one of the best pass rushers in the league rush the qb more is a bad thing? kiffin already said he'd adjust to cowboys personnel anyways meaning ware rushing more and Claiborne Carr continuing to play man
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Jakuvious
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Posts: 10918
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Hiero wrote: | | RoeKG wrote: | Assuming Kiffin would keep the Tampa-2 system, I think this would be a bad move for the Cowboys.
It'll force Ware into a 4-3 spot which I'm sure he's capable of, but when you have a top pass rusher, why change things? Who will play the opposite DE spot, because isn't Spencer a FA after this season?
Lee and Carter would fit in really well, but having Brandon Carr and Morris Claiborne play in a zone system seems like a massive waste of their abilities.
I'm not saying it wouldn't work for them, and I don't even know how Kiffin would adapt, but it doesn't seem like the right move. |
so you're saying that having one of the best pass rushers in the league rush the qb more is a bad thing? kiffin already said he'd adjust to cowboys personnel anyways meaning ware rushing more and Claiborne Carr continuing to play man |
There are slight differences between rushing standing up and rushing as a DE though. Even though they seem really similar, look at a guy like Tamba Hali. Never really shined until he got a chance to stand up. Makes a huge difference for him.
The other thing is, while Kiffin may adapt, his flexibility isn't exactly what he is famous for. He has run more or less the same defense for over the past decade. So while he may change, I'll believe it when I see it. Old coaches who have never really needed to change generally wouldn't be very likely to switch all of a sudden.
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