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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
Do you really think that CP is the only reason we sucked in the red zone? You don't attribute it at all to receivers dropping balls, no running game, poor OL play and horrific play calling? You're better than that.


+1

Palmer wasn't bad in the redzone: 13 TDs 1 INT on 66 RZ attempts.

Our RBs, on the other hand, combined for just 50 yards and 1 TD on 36 RZ attempts (1.3 YPC).

Regardless of how you feel about Palmer's RZ performance, he was leaps and bounds better than our RBs. Our longest RZ run by a RB was 7 yards, Palmer's was 6 Embarassed


so cp scored in the rz 20% of the time. wow lol. ok now i see the light lol.

how did tp do in the redzone?


My bad, I meant on 63 RZ pass attempts, not 66 RZ trips.

Pryor had 2 TDs on 4 RZ pass attempts. Very good, but I'd like to see a much larger sample size.
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
Do you really think that CP is the only reason we sucked in the red zone? You don't attribute it at all to receivers dropping balls, no running game, poor OL play and horrific play calling? You're better than that.


+1

Palmer wasn't bad in the redzone: 13 TDs 1 INT on 66 RZ attempts.

Our RBs, on the other hand, combined for just 50 yards and 1 TD on 36 RZ attempts (1.3 YPC).

Regardless of how you feel about Palmer's RZ performance, he was leaps and bounds better than our RBs. Our longest RZ run by a RB was 7 yards, Palmer's was 6 Embarassed


Wow, I didn't realize how efficient Palmer was in the red zone. I did know our RBs were trash but that's actually pretty impressive.


He only completed about 50% of his RZ passes so nothing great there, but when you consider he literally had zero run game in the RZ a 13:1 TD:INT ratio looks even better.
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Silver&Black88


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
-he is a statue aka "frozen goods" as i like to call it. sure he can dodge a pass rusher here and there but he is like a cat whose nine lives are running out. tp on the other hand can and will dodge a rusher with ease plus he can either extend the play and give his wrs more time to get open or scramble for a 5 yard or more gain. cp cant do that. i agree our o-line is trash and thats why a mobile qb will have a better chance of surviving.

Even more mobile QB's shift in the pocket. Cutler, Rodgers and Big Ben do that just as much as they scramble. Speaking of which, Rodgers (who can definitely scramble) was the most sacked in the league. And Palmer still extended the play plenty. Do you not remember him getting destroyed vs Carolina while extending the play?

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
-i said the back shoulder stuff cause it was in reference to you talking about tp. i know cp can make all the throws everyone knows that even the defenses. thats why they just drop that extra guy in coverage and viola the offense gets stalled. imo qbs need to be able to throw and scramble its a new era.

Throwing is much more important than scrambling though. You don't "need" to be able to scramble. There are plenty of successful non-scrambling QB's in the league. Its a nice ability to have, but it isn't crucial.

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
no i dont like cp cause
-he isnt worth the money he is being paid
duh

-he is too old for a rebuilding team
Who is saying that he's a long term solution? This is a 1 more year thing, 2 max Laughing

-he has only led us to 8 wins and 19 losses iirc
Do you seriously think that's all his fault? Especially when he was out of football for half the year last season?? C'mon man.

-he makes too many rookie mistakes for a 32 year old player
He is INT prone, but he had his lowest total of his career with INTs per attempt. We've gone over this.

-he is easy to game plan against cause he is a one trick pony
Simply not true, you're just nitpicking because he isn't a dual threat. He had no running game for help and the defense was garbage most of the year

-we dont have the type of team he needs to support him
And this is his fault how? We're stuck with him for better of for worse

-he cant/wont run for a first even if his has a wide open 20 yard cushion.
20 yard cushions only exist on Hail Marys


NCOUGHMAN wrote:
the game is changing, defenses are smarter and faster than they have even been. a mobile qb imo evens the odds. tp can throw also he may not throw 20 yard darts like cp but he can do other things cp only dreams about. lets also not act like cp didnt over throw hella balls or put throw dirt balls either.

Palmer is far from perfect, but hella balls is a hyperbole. Should we look the other way at all the catchable balls he threw that got dropped? CP doesn't dream about being Michael Vick, because he knows he can be and is successful without running ability.
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NCOUGHMAN


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
Do you really think that CP is the only reason we sucked in the red zone? You don't attribute it at all to receivers dropping balls, no running game, poor OL play and horrific play calling? You're better than that.


+1

Palmer wasn't bad in the redzone: 13 TDs 1 INT on 66 RZ attempts.

Our RBs, on the other hand, combined for just 50 yards and 1 TD on 36 RZ attempts (1.3 YPC).

Regardless of how you feel about Palmer's RZ performance, he was leaps and bounds better than our RBs. Our longest RZ run by a RB was 7 yards, Palmer's was 6 Embarassed


so cp scored in the rz 20% of the time. wow lol. ok now i see the light lol.

how did tp do in the redzone?


My bad, I meant on 66 RZ pass attempts, not 66 RZ trips.


how many times were we in the redzone last year?
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JTagg7754


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
Do you really think that CP is the only reason we sucked in the red zone? You don't attribute it at all to receivers dropping balls, no running game, poor OL play and horrific play calling? You're better than that.


+1

Palmer wasn't bad in the redzone: 13 TDs 1 INT on 66 RZ attempts.

Our RBs, on the other hand, combined for just 50 yards and 1 TD on 36 RZ attempts (1.3 YPC).

Regardless of how you feel about Palmer's RZ performance, he was leaps and bounds better than our RBs. Our longest RZ run by a RB was 7 yards, Palmer's was 6 Embarassed


Wow, I didn't realize how efficient Palmer was in the red zone. I did know our RBs were trash but that's actually pretty impressive.


He only completed about 50% of his RZ passes so nothing great there, but when you consider he literally had zero run game in the RZ a 13:1 TD:INT ratio looks even better.


That was the focal point of my post. When you're one dimensional that close to the end zone, it makes it substantially easier for defenses to key in on you. He protected the ball down there (which so many people claim he cannot do) and took what was given to him.
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
Do you really think that CP is the only reason we sucked in the red zone? You don't attribute it at all to receivers dropping balls, no running game, poor OL play and horrific play calling? You're better than that.


+1

Palmer wasn't bad in the redzone: 13 TDs 1 INT on 66 RZ attempts.

Our RBs, on the other hand, combined for just 50 yards and 1 TD on 36 RZ attempts (1.3 YPC).

Regardless of how you feel about Palmer's RZ performance, he was leaps and bounds better than our RBs. Our longest RZ run by a RB was 7 yards, Palmer's was 6 Embarassed


so cp scored in the rz 20% of the time. wow lol. ok now i see the light lol.

how did tp do in the redzone?


My bad, I meant on 66 RZ pass attempts, not 66 RZ trips.


how many times were we in the redzone last year?


With Plamer, we scored on 15/37 RZ attempts. Not very good, but you have to give more blame to the run game that averaged 1.3 YPC and a single TD in the RZ than the QB who through 13 TDs and 1 INT.

For the record, I do like Pryor's mobility in the RZ, I think it would be more beneficial there than anywhere. I really hope we get some packages with him when we get close to the RZ. I dont care if he line sup at QB, RB, WR, or as a decoy, he can be very useful down there.
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La_Vader wrote:
I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that


Last edited by ZoomWaffle on Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
Do you really think that CP is the only reason we sucked in the red zone? You don't attribute it at all to receivers dropping balls, no running game, poor OL play and horrific play calling? You're better than that.


+1

Palmer wasn't bad in the redzone: 13 TDs 1 INT on 66 RZ attempts.

Our RBs, on the other hand, combined for just 50 yards and 1 TD on 36 RZ attempts (1.3 YPC).

Regardless of how you feel about Palmer's RZ performance, he was leaps and bounds better than our RBs. Our longest RZ run by a RB was 7 yards, Palmer's was 6 Embarassed


Wow, I didn't realize how efficient Palmer was in the red zone. I did know our RBs were trash but that's actually pretty impressive.


He only completed about 50% of his RZ passes so nothing great there, but when you consider he literally had zero run game in the RZ a 13:1 TD:INT ratio looks even better.


That was the focal point of my post. When you're one dimensional that close to the end zone, it makes it substantially easier for defenses to key in on you. He protected the ball down there (which so many people claim he cannot do) and took what was given to him.


No doubt, I was just sayin'. When the QB throws 13 TDs and one pick and the RBs average 3.4 yards a game in the RZ with only one TD, its pretty obvious where our redzone woes came from.
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Tacos wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:

tp on the other hand can and will dodge a rusher with ease plus he can either extend the play and give his wrs more time to get open or scramble for a 5 yard or more gain
TP can also run backwards and get sacked for a 10+ yard loss quite a bit, like what happened in pre-season.

What does TP do once teams start putting spies on him? Once they have tape to watch?


tp from preseason to tp vrs sd was night and day. imo he learned his lesson. in sd he was running for his life but never lost yards iirc. also turned would be (cp) sacks into 5 yrd gains.

tp can out run any lb/de and is bigger than any db. i like my chances with tp in the open field vrs anyone.


I like his chances in the open field, but running around behind the LOS is a different story because you have more defenders running at him becuas ehe hasnt broken into the open field yet. His scrambling ability is awesome, but again, one game of not getting sacked isnt enough. I would want to see him do it again in preseason next season. There was that one play vs SD were I swear he ran around back there for 25 seconds lol. It was awesome that he got out of it, but it could just as easily end up an 18 yard sack. Hopefully his coaches are putting it in his head to be careful with that stuff. In college when he could play more off his natural athleticism it worked, but you gotta be more careful about that in the NFL.
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Nodisrespect


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on guys, Carson was bad on 3rd downs and Redzone. Blame it on Knapp as i do to. But come on, this offense was horrible in the redzone.

Most of the people posting watched every single game this year, so i don't know how you can come away thinking Palmer(or the offense which he has a major responsibility in) was more than abysmal in the Redzone.
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nodisrespect wrote:
Come on guys, Carson was bad on 3rd downs and Redzone. Blame it on Knapp as i do to. But come on, this offense was horrible in the redzone.

Most of the people posting watched every single game this year, so i don't know how you can come away thinking Palmer(or the offense which he has a major responsibility in) was more than abysmal in the Redzone.


He could have been better, but its obvious that the run game was the biggest reason we struggled in the RZ. When the D has no problem stopping your run game with 6 or less in the box, it makes your offense one-dimensional. I'm not saying Palmer couldnt have been better- he could have completed more passes, but again, at least he did anything positive, the run game literally did NOTHING in the RZ- 3.4 yards per game, 1.3 yards per carry, one TD, long run of 7 yards...
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Silver&Black88


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
Nodisrespect wrote:
Come on guys, Carson was bad on 3rd downs and Redzone. Blame it on Knapp as i do to. But come on, this offense was horrible in the redzone.

Most of the people posting watched every single game this year, so i don't know how you can come away thinking Palmer(or the offense which he has a major responsibility in) was more than abysmal in the Redzone.


He could have been better, but its obvious that the run game was the biggest reason we struggled in the RZ. When the D has no problem stopping your run game with 6 or less in the box, it makes your offense one-dimensional. I'm not saying Palmer couldnt have been better- he could have completed more passes, but again, at least he did anything positive, the run game literally did NOTHING in the RZ- 3.4 yards per game, 1.3 yards per carry, one TD, long run of 7 yards...


Exactly. We've acknowledged Palmer could be even better in the RZ (his stats aren't bad). This is a team sport though, and it seems that some people are locking onto Palmer not being elite in the redzone and somehow twisting that into blaming him for our red zone woes.
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NCOUGHMAN


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
-he is a statue aka "frozen goods" as i like to call it. sure he can dodge a pass rusher here and there but he is like a cat whose nine lives are running out. tp on the other hand can and will dodge a rusher with ease plus he can either extend the play and give his wrs more time to get open or scramble for a 5 yard or more gain. cp cant do that. i agree our o-line is trash and thats why a mobile qb will have a better chance of surviving.

Even more mobile QB's shift in the pocket. Cutler, Rodgers and Big Ben do that just as much as they scramble. Speaking of which, Rodgers (who can definitely scramble) was the most sacked in the league. And Palmer still extended the play plenty. Do you not remember him getting destroyed vs Carolina while extending the play?

-imo rodgers, cutler and big ben get sacked a lot cause they hold on to the ball for too long in the pocket which i hate. cutler and big ben also get injured a lot which is the same problem i think rodger will have. cp gets the ball out avoiding a lot of sacks which is good. id rather have a guy that will scramble for 5-6 yards once the play breaks down. vrs a guy that takes the sack or throws it away.

- exactly thats what happens when he tries to extend the play. now tp on that play would have got at least 10 yrd before running out of bounds.


NCOUGHMAN wrote:
-i said the back shoulder stuff cause it was in reference to you talking about tp. i know cp can make all the throws everyone knows that even the defenses. thats why they just drop that extra guy in coverage and viola the offense gets stalled. imo qbs need to be able to throw and scramble its a new era.

Throwing is much more important than scrambling though. You don't "need" to be able to scramble. There are plenty of successful non-scrambling QB's in the league. Its a nice ability to have, but it isn't crucial.

-when you have a weak arse o-line you do "need" to be able to and you should scramble imo. its saves the qb from being hit and extends drives. yes qb have to be able to throw and tp can throw and imo if given a full season he will be in the top 15-20 range

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
no i dont like cp cause
-he isnt worth the money he is being paid
duh

-he is too old for a rebuilding team
Who is saying that he's a long term solution? This is a 1 more year thing, 2 max Laughing

-how does that help the team? its like the big rich thing all over again. how is paying cp 10+ mill just so he can leave in a year or two helping the team.

-he has only led us to 8 wins and 19 losses iirc
Do you seriously think that's all his fault? Especially when he was out of football for half the year last season?? C'mon man.

-i dont want to get into excuses. but its funny how that excuse is used but people rag on tp's performance despite the fact he gets less support from the organization.

-he makes too many rookie mistakes for a 32 year old player
He is INT prone, but he had his lowest total of his career with INTs per attempt. We've gone over this.

-mistakes arent just ints. he was one off from having the lowest td total since his rookie year and had the most incompletions ever in his career. not to mention in the 4th qtr when the score is close (+or - 7 points) he has 0td and 3ints. how about the fact that when we lose he had 16tds and 11 ints. but when we win he had 6 tds and 3 ints (my fav 2:1 ratio btw).

-he is easy to game plan against cause he is a one trick pony
Simply not true, you're just nitpicking because he isn't a dual threat. He had no running game for help and the defense was garbage most of the year

-he isnt even a single threat anymore lol. 3 of his tds came from passes that started behind the L.O.S.. matter of fact he threw 91 passes behind the L.O.S. with 80% completion rate. 68% from 1-10 yrds, 48% from 11-20yrd, 24% from 21-30yrds, 20% from 31-40 yards. so what is it that cp does well?

-we dont have the type of team he needs to support him
And this is his fault how? We're stuck with him for better of for worse

-no from what ive read/heard he can be cut right now and save us $$ (sorry i was gonna just use 1 but i couldnt help myself lol)

-he cant/wont run for a first even if his has a wide open 20 yard cushion.
20 yard cushions only exist on Hail Marys


- when the extra defender is off in coverage huge cushions are created

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
the game is changing, defenses are smarter and faster than they have even been. a mobile qb imo evens the odds. tp can throw also he may not throw 20 yard darts like cp but he can do other things cp only dreams about. lets also not act like cp didnt over throw hella balls or put throw dirt balls either.

Palmer is far from perfect, but hella balls is a hyperbole. Should we look the other way at all the catchable balls he threw that got dropped? CP doesn't dream about being Michael Vick, because he knows he can be and is successful without running ability.


-dropped balls happen. i wish i could get some real #'s on the amount each wr dropped then subtract them from cp's actual incompletions so we can get to the bottom of that issue. and fwiw hasnt vick been to the playoffs more and had more playoff wins than cp. also vick has played in 17 fewer games than cp but has won 4 more games than cp. Wink
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Nodisrespect


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
-he is a statue aka "frozen goods" as i like to call it. sure he can dodge a pass rusher here and there but he is like a cat whose nine lives are running out. tp on the other hand can and will dodge a rusher with ease plus he can either extend the play and give his wrs more time to get open or scramble for a 5 yard or more gain. cp cant do that. i agree our o-line is trash and thats why a mobile qb will have a better chance of surviving.

Even more mobile QB's shift in the pocket. Cutler, Rodgers and Big Ben do that just as much as they scramble. Speaking of which, Rodgers (who can definitely scramble) was the most sacked in the league. And Palmer still extended the play plenty. Do you not remember him getting destroyed vs Carolina while extending the play?

-imo rodgers, cutler and big ben get sacked a lot cause they hold on to the ball for too long in the pocket which i hate. cutler and big ben also get injured a lot which is the same problem i think rodger will have. cp gets the ball out avoiding a lot of sacks which is good. id rather have a guy that will scramble for 5-6 yards once the play breaks down. vrs a guy that takes the sack or throws it away.

- exactly thats what happens when he tries to extend the play. now tp on that play would have got at least 10 yrd before running out of bounds.


NCOUGHMAN wrote:
-i said the back shoulder stuff cause it was in reference to you talking about tp. i know cp can make all the throws everyone knows that even the defenses. thats why they just drop that extra guy in coverage and viola the offense gets stalled. imo qbs need to be able to throw and scramble its a new era.

Throwing is much more important than scrambling though. You don't "need" to be able to scramble. There are plenty of successful non-scrambling QB's in the league. Its a nice ability to have, but it isn't crucial.

-when you have a weak arse o-line you do "need" to be able to and you should scramble imo. its saves the qb from being hit and extends drives. yes qb have to be able to throw and tp can throw and imo if given a full season he will be in the top 15-20 range

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
no i dont like cp cause
-he isnt worth the money he is being paid
duh

-he is too old for a rebuilding team
Who is saying that he's a long term solution? This is a 1 more year thing, 2 max Laughing

-how does that help the team? its like the big rich thing all over again. how is paying cp 10+ mill just so he can leave in a year or two helping the team.

-he has only led us to 8 wins and 19 losses iirc
Do you seriously think that's all his fault? Especially when he was out of football for half the year last season?? C'mon man.

-i dont want to get into excuses. but its funny how that excuse is used but people rag on tp's performance despite the fact he gets less support from the organization.

-he makes too many rookie mistakes for a 32 year old player
He is INT prone, but he had his lowest total of his career with INTs per attempt. We've gone over this.

-mistakes arent just ints. he was one off from having the lowest td total since his rookie year and had the most incompletions ever in his career. not to mention in the 4th qtr when the score is close (+or - 7 points) he has 0td and 3ints. how about the fact that when we lose he had 16tds and 11 ints. but when we win he had 6 tds and 3 ints (my fav 2:1 ratio btw).

-he is easy to game plan against cause he is a one trick pony
Simply not true, you're just nitpicking because he isn't a dual threat. He had no running game for help and the defense was garbage most of the year

-he isnt even a single threat anymore lol. 3 of his tds came from passes that started behind the L.O.S.. matter of fact he threw 91 passes behind the L.O.S. with 80% completion rate. 68% from 1-10 yrds, 48% from 11-20yrd, 24% from 21-30yrds, 20% from 31-40 yards. so what is it that cp does well?

-we dont have the type of team he needs to support him
And this is his fault how? We're stuck with him for better of for worse

-no from what ive read/heard he can be cut right now and save us $$ (sorry i was gonna just use 1 but i couldnt help myself lol)

-he cant/wont run for a first even if his has a wide open 20 yard cushion.
20 yard cushions only exist on Hail Marys


- when the extra defender is off in coverage huge cushions are created

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
the game is changing, defenses are smarter and faster than they have even been. a mobile qb imo evens the odds. tp can throw also he may not throw 20 yard darts like cp but he can do other things cp only dreams about. lets also not act like cp didnt over throw hella balls or put throw dirt balls either.

Palmer is far from perfect, but hella balls is a hyperbole. Should we look the other way at all the catchable balls he threw that got dropped? CP doesn't dream about being Michael Vick, because he knows he can be and is successful without running ability.


-dropped balls happen. i wish i could get some real #'s on the amount each wr dropped then subtract them from cp's actual incompletions so we can get to the bottom of that issue. and fwiw hasnt vick been to the playoffs more and had more playoff wins than cp. also vick has played in 17 fewer games than cp but has won 4 more games than cp. Wink


At the same time we need to lay off CP it's not all his fault.

And we are trying to trade him hopefully.
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