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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22613
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:


Since you're so smart please enlighten me on how does being older not help a college player.
You probably won't even answer this because as usual you're wrong.


I'm usually wrong, but everyone agrees that your comment was dumb.

Being older has nothing to do with a guys skill set. Clowney for example, many said he could play in the NFL out of high school. By your logic, he would be a poor player because he was younger.

Chance Warmack is 21. By your logic, he shouldn't be as good a player as a guard who is 23? Yet he could start today in the NFL and be an elite prospect. There is your answer. You're story is full of holes.

Also, I speaking of questions being answered. I've now asked you twice how many times you've watched Jones play. To which you've avoided showing you know you are just looking at stat sheets and judging his game. You're track record speaks for itself.



Stop twisting my words I said a player will be betther at 23 then at 20.


Laughing Laughing Laughing

I'm twisting your words. Your words would say that 21 year old Warmack isn't as good as a 26 year old guard Bergstrom.

You might want to know what your words are before saying they are being twisted. Laughing Laughing


Keep on making stuff up, still doesn't make you right.
I said that Von Miller was a better then Jones because they are both the same age and Von Miller is All-Pro and Jones is All-SEC


Comparing a college player against a pro player. How ridiculous can you get. You have absolutely no point.

Again, 4th attempt how much have you actually watched Jarvis play? I know the answer, but I want to hear you try to make something up. Laughing Laughing


You were serious with that question? Of course I saw him play.
I have family in Atlanta and my nephew is thinking about going toGeorgia to play football. So I like to keep an eye on Geogia.


If you watched him closely, they you wouldn't be so ridiculously off base with your assessment. Just my opinion.


What ridiculous comments that he has red flags? I admittedly haven't been watching the games as closely as I do a Raider game but I can't remember him ever going back in pass coverage. That right there is a red flag .

By the way of my nephews is 6'6 280 at 16 years old and plays LT.


So you read the first line of every 'negative' in his scouting report. That's #2 after his medical issue. Care to add anything original?
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 33516
Location: Boston, MA
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Care to add anything original?

His moms would even say he's ugly.


Boom.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 3657
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:


Since you're so smart please enlighten me on how does being older not help a college player.
You probably won't even answer this because as usual you're wrong.


I'm usually wrong, but everyone agrees that your comment was dumb.

Being older has nothing to do with a guys skill set. Clowney for example, many said he could play in the NFL out of high school. By your logic, he would be a poor player because he was younger.

Chance Warmack is 21. By your logic, he shouldn't be as good a player as a guard who is 23? Yet he could start today in the NFL and be an elite prospect. There is your answer. You're story is full of holes.

Also, I speaking of questions being answered. I've now asked you twice how many times you've watched Jones play. To which you've avoided showing you know you are just looking at stat sheets and judging his game. You're track record speaks for itself.



Stop twisting my words I said a player will be betther at 23 then at 20.


Laughing Laughing Laughing

I'm twisting your words. Your words would say that 21 year old Warmack isn't as good as a 26 year old guard Bergstrom.

You might want to know what your words are before saying they are being twisted. Laughing Laughing


Keep on making stuff up, still doesn't make you right.
I said that Von Miller was a better then Jones because they are both the same age and Von Miller is All-Pro and Jones is All-SEC


Comparing a college player against a pro player. How ridiculous can you get. You have absolutely no point.

Again, 4th attempt how much have you actually watched Jarvis play? I know the answer, but I want to hear you try to make something up. Laughing Laughing


You were serious with that question? Of course I saw him play.
I have family in Atlanta and my nephew is thinking about going toGeorgia to play football. So I like to keep an eye on Geogia.


If you watched him closely, they you wouldn't be so ridiculously off base with your assessment. Just my opinion.


What ridiculous comments that he has red flags? I admittedly haven't been watching the games as closely as I do a Raider game but I can't remember him ever going back in pass coverage. That right there is a red flag .

By the way of my nephews is 6'6 280 at 16 years old and plays LT.


So you read the first line of every 'negative' in his scouting report. That's #2 after his medical issue. Care to add anything original?


He dresses funny. Is that original for you?
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daineraider


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 4418
Location: Salt Lake City
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
Yogi wrote:
Bo_Spice wrote:
If Jarvis Jones checks out medically he'd be a no brainer at number three.

Just asking, does this guy have anything besides a speed move?


Well, i haven't paid a lot of attention to him since i don't think the Raiders should take a chance on that guy but from the little i've seen, it seems to be a huge part of his pass rush. When the olinemen get their hands on him, he usually can't get off blocks. When he beats them with his first step, he's effective. Maybe some people who have watched him more would disagree though.


Its really hard to find unbiased opinions on him. A lot of people are like you and I, uninformed because we aren't really considering picking him. But it looks to me like about everyone else who would consider him is in love with him. I think I'll poke around the internet and draft forum to read up more.


Yeah, i'm just commenting on the little i saw and he didn't show great technique.


Yeah who would want a guy who had 22 tfl and 13 sacks as a soph. And 19.5 tfl and 12.5 sacks as a Jr with 7 ff. What is it he can't do that you are looking for. He had 3 sacks against Florida this year and 4 last year. I understand if you have some questions about him but what about his production doesn't impress you.

The one thing that scares me is that USC wouldn't clear him to play after his freshman year. But he obviously isn't showing ill affects from his medical issue. And if he can keep performing like he did thelast two years. There is no reason to believe he can't do it at the next level.

On a side note he was also an all state bball player in high school which shows you how athletic the guy is.
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Mr.Bob Dobalina


Joined: 24 Oct 2009
Posts: 1567
Location: Texas
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bo_Spice wrote:
Mr.Bob Dobalina wrote:
Bo_Spice wrote:
If Jarvis Jones checks out medically he'd be a no brainer at number three.
I do agree if jones is there at 3 and he checks out he is a no brainer. He did have some drug issues but so did Moore.I have a feeling jones will be gone and we will be picking between Star and Moore and In that case I would take Moore.


Where'd you see Jones had some drug issues?
I thought I read jones tested positive for marijauna while at Georgia? I could be wrong.
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TiberiusRising


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 8909
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its not the effects on his game medically that is worriesome. It is the fact that having spine condition for any reason and an occupation that can put great stress on your spine day in and day out. There is a difference between you are cleared to do something and whether prolonged punishment will more likely have consequences than the average person.

IMO, if we pick top 3 the guy should be here 8 plus years or we should be able to trade him for a high value at some point.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 5944
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

101Raider wrote:
macklemore wrote:
RaiderX wrote:
macklemore wrote:
I'd be shocked if Jarvis Jones is drafted in the top ten.


Why?


1. His medical red flag. Spinal Stenosis is the narrowing of the the spinal column where the nerves come through it at the bottom. It's a degenerative disease meaning the structure of the affected tissues will progressively deteriorate over time. Jones could get lucky and finish his career but why would an NFL franchise take such a risk? The disease also gives Jones a higher risk of paralysis considering the physical nature of the position he plays, this is why USC didn't clear him to play. Most teams will take him off of their board. I hear people say "if he checks out at the combine".. what the fuu.. what are they expecting him to not have this disease anymore? are they expecting a miracle?

2. His size. He is 6'2 240 pounds, he looks more like a RB then an OLB/DE. He will probably come into the combine at 250 pounds but who knows how that will effect his explosiveness, he isn't an elite athlete by any means, he can't stand to lose any athleticism.

Jarvis Jones is a very talented player, he reminds me of Clay Matthews, but the only way I would draft him in the first round is if I was already a contender like green bay, new england, san fran or atlanta.


Just a couple of things in regards to your statement

In regards to people stating "if he checks out at the combine," I can't speak for others but what I'm referencing is that there's varying degrees of the condition. As of yet I've not heard any specific information regarding how severe his situation is. All we know is that one college took the stance that they weren't willing to take a risk and another college cleared him to play. There's a pretty wide difference between the two stances.

Also, not all cases are degenerative. Some cases of spinal stenosis are acquired for example: tumors, trauma, or bone conditions such as Paget's disease. Others are inherited such as the condition called achondroplasia. The caveat and the reason most people are misinformed is that the majority of cases are i fact degenerative via aging with secondary changes due mostly to rheumatoid arthritis and osteoarthritis.

Sorry for the rant but I needed to get some things off my chest. It irritates me about how much misinformation is out there when it comes to this condition. I myself have been diagnosed with a minor L1-L2 Stenosis. The Army has seen fit to keep me on not just active duty but on Jump Status which is very stressful to the spinal column.

In summary, if our medical staff clears him then I'm okay with the selection.


The point is every medical staff is different and can up with widely varying diagnosis'. USC won't clear him, Georgia did. Regardless, the Raiders don't have the interior DL that would allow Jones to do what he does rendering Jones significantly less effective and exposing him more to injury by consistently taking on OL. It doesn't make a ton of sense to me. Drafting Jones and putting him behind a weak DL would take years off his career.
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Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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RaiderX


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 20549
Location: Crown Town, CA
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
101Raider wrote:
macklemore wrote:
RaiderX wrote:
macklemore wrote:
I'd be shocked if Jarvis Jones is drafted in the top ten.


Why?


1. His medical red flag. Spinal Stenosis is the narrowing of the the spinal column where the nerves come through it at the bottom. It's a degenerative disease meaning the structure of the affected tissues will progressively deteriorate over time. Jones could get lucky and finish his career but why would an NFL franchise take such a risk? The disease also gives Jones a higher risk of paralysis considering the physical nature of the position he plays, this is why USC didn't clear him to play. Most teams will take him off of their board. I hear people say "if he checks out at the combine".. what the fuu.. what are they expecting him to not have this disease anymore? are they expecting a miracle?

2. His size. He is 6'2 240 pounds, he looks more like a RB then an OLB/DE. He will probably come into the combine at 250 pounds but who knows how that will effect his explosiveness, he isn't an elite athlete by any means, he can't stand to lose any athleticism.

Jarvis Jones is a very talented player, he reminds me of Clay Matthews, but the only way I would draft him in the first round is if I was already a contender like green bay, new england, san fran or atlanta.


Just a couple of things in regards to your statement

In regards to people stating "if he checks out at the combine," I can't speak for others but what I'm referencing is that there's varying degrees of the condition. As of yet I've not heard any specific information regarding how severe his situation is. All we know is that one college took the stance that they weren't willing to take a risk and another college cleared him to play. There's a pretty wide difference between the two stances.

Also, not all cases are degenerative. Some cases of spinal stenosis are acquired for example: tumors, trauma, or bone conditions such as Paget's disease. Others are inherited such as the condition called achondroplasia. The caveat and the reason most people are misinformed is that the majority of cases are i fact degenerative via aging with secondary changes due mostly to rheumatoid arthritis and osteoarthritis.

Sorry for the rant but I needed to get some things off my chest. It irritates me about how much misinformation is out there when it comes to this condition. I myself have been diagnosed with a minor L1-L2 Stenosis. The Army has seen fit to keep me on not just active duty but on Jump Status which is very stressful to the spinal column.

In summary, if our medical staff clears him then I'm okay with the selection.


Great post. Good to see someone who has true insight. My understanding was it was diagnosed as a mild case originally and there is varying degrees to how degenerative this condition can be.


+1. When he went to Georgia he was cleared by 3 doctors before he joined the Bulldogs. The concerns are valid but are a bit overblown. Yet to hear anybody talk about his condition being severe or preventing him from going top 5. Until he is looked at at the combine its up for debate how serious or not serious his situation is. Talent wise the guy is hands down the best Pass rusher in the draft. Him being a luxury for great teams is a stretch but going to a team who might rely on him for pressure like us isn't. If we didn't have so many needs on the defensive side it'd be an easy decision.

His size is not an issue. Haven't seen many RBs at 6'2 so it seems a bit overblown. All players put on more weight and muscle when they get into the league. 10lbs is about right for him to help with power moves. To me he's a more well rounded version of Bruce Irvin.
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Yea, RaiderX wins. We can all just top acting like this is a matter of opinion. MY GOD.
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

daineraider wrote:

Yeah who would want a guy who had 22 tfl and 13 sacks as a soph. And 19.5 tfl and 12.5 sacks as a Jr with 7 ff. What is it he can't do that you are looking for. He had 3 sacks against Florida this year and 4 last year. I understand if you have some questions about him but what about his production doesn't impress you.


I have no idea what his production was since i couldn't care less about college stats. College and the pros are 2 different games. A superior athlete will be able to produce in college because he's facing some guys who will never make it to the NFL (and yeah, even if you're in the SEC). Once he gets in the NFL, athletic ability alone won't get him far. Now, this is just a general observation, not specifically related to Jarvis Jones.
As far as Jones is concerned, i was just saying he seemed to struggle to disengage from blocks when i watched him which is a bit surprising to me considering most people talk about him like he's an incredible prospect.
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daineraider


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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Location: Salt Lake City
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
daineraider wrote:

Yeah who would want a guy who had 22 tfl and 13 sacks as a soph. And 19.5 tfl and 12.5 sacks as a Jr with 7 ff. What is it he can't do that you are looking for. He had 3 sacks against Florida this year and 4 last year. I understand if you have some questions about him but what about his production doesn't impress you.


I have no idea what his production was since i couldn't care less about college stats. College and the pros are 2 different games. A superior athlete will be able to produce in college because he's facing some guys who will never make it to the NFL (and yeah, even if you're in the SEC). Once he gets in the NFL, athletic ability alone won't get him far. Now, this is just a general observation, not specifically related to Jarvis Jones.
As far as Jones is concerned, i was just saying he seemed to struggle to disengage from blocks when i watched him which is a bit surprising to me considering most people talk about him like he's an incredible prospect.


I can see why you don't use college stats as a knows all tells all, but good players are going to put up good stats. Yes just like every other player he gets blocked but he makes so many plays for his team. I know you would like to see him throw off any blocker but these guys are going to blow everything up every single play. And this guy can get to the qb. Even though they are college stats they don't lie. He is a great pass rusher. And is decent against the run. 7 forced fumbles even at the college level is pretty impressive. It shows he can hit.

I have a few reservations about him also. But the one thing that kills us is a lack of qb pressure. I think star or Hankins would be great to help slow down the run but Jones would help everyone out by blowing up plays.
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:


Personally, I would love to still try to get AZ to trade with us. Lewan is going back to school and Joeckel is that much better than Fisher. They have pieces on D and no QB is worth taking at their pick.

ZoomWaffle wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
I would really prefer Dion Jordan


I'll take that as your admission that Oregon > USC

Shh. Too late, already done. No takesies backsies!

Duck Power.


YOU SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE!


Laughing

Hey, I've always loved my Ducks. I'm just glad to see you do now, too!

In all seriousness, Jordan is a flat out freak. Big, fast, athletic, versatile... He could be used in enough ways to help in more than one area. What's truly frightening is that this was only his 3rd year playing defense! He is really going to be something special.
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RaidersAreOne


Joined: 28 Jun 2008
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Location: Canada, but don't worry... i'm not one of those damn dirty french.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the apparent switch from ZBS to PBS, does Warmack move up anyones draft boards? And does Joeckel move down anyones?
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G


Joined: 02 Feb 2007
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Location: Hollywierd
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RaidersAreOne wrote:
With the apparent switch from ZBS to PBS, does Warmack move up anyones draft boards? And does Joeckel move down anyones?


Nope not mine. Joeckel would be my 1st choice if no trade down.
Star or Jones depending on FA. Smith if considered Franchise QB by RM
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