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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:


Since you're so smart please enlighten me on how does being older not help a college player.
You probably won't even answer this because as usual you're wrong.


I'm usually wrong, but everyone agrees that your comment was dumb.

Being older has nothing to do with a guys skill set. Clowney for example, many said he could play in the NFL out of high school. By your logic, he would be a poor player because he was younger.

Chance Warmack is 21. By your logic, he shouldn't be as good a player as a guard who is 23? Yet he could start today in the NFL and be an elite prospect. There is your answer. You're story is full of holes.

Also, I speaking of questions being answered. I've now asked you twice how many times you've watched Jones play. To which you've avoided showing you know you are just looking at stat sheets and judging his game. You're track record speaks for itself.
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TiberiusRising


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bo_Spice wrote:
TiberiusRising wrote:
I agree with everything said he which is why I am not high on him. However he will go top 5 at worst. More than likely top 3.


If NFL medical staffs don't like what they see with his spinal issue his draft stock will fall and he won't go top five.


Oh yes, I agree 100%. My comments were if he were to check out medically "at the moment" during the draft process.

Personally I would not want him.
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:


So you're endorsing Jones because you feel the Raiders interior DL will be able to keep him clean?


I'm endorsing Jones, because he's an amazing talent. I don't see a DT that has his skill set.

Doesn't mean the Dline doesn't need addressed, but you take the best player available.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

macklemore wrote:
RaiderX wrote:
macklemore wrote:
I'd be shocked if Jarvis Jones is drafted in the top ten.


Why?


1. His medical red flag. Spinal Stenosis is the narrowing of the the spinal column where the nerves come through it at the bottom. It's a degenerative disease meaning the structure of the affected tissues will progressively deteriorate over time. Jones could get lucky and finish his career but why would an NFL franchise take such a risk? The disease also gives Jones a higher risk of paralysis considering the physical nature of the position he plays, this is why USC didn't clear him to play. Most teams will take him off of their board. I hear people say "if he checks out at the combine".. what the fuu.. what are they expecting him to not have this disease anymore? are they expecting a miracle?

2. His size. He is 6'2 240 pounds, he looks more like a RB then an OLB/DE. He will probably come into the combine at 250 pounds but who knows how that will effect his explosiveness, he isn't an elite athlete by any means, he can't stand to lose any athleticism.

Jarvis Jones is a very talented player, he reminds me of Clay Matthews, but the only way I would draft him in the first round is if I was already a contender like green bay, new england, san fran or atlanta.


1. I agree.

2. 7-10 lbs on his frame will not hurt him athletically. He's a similar size to Thomas Davis, Von Miller, etc. at OLB. The size argument is overblown with his quickness and speed.

I agree to an extent that it's a large risk for a team like Oakland who needs and impact player to draft him. However, they NEED an impact player and he is one. That's hard to ignore.
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101Raider


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

macklemore wrote:
RaiderX wrote:
macklemore wrote:
I'd be shocked if Jarvis Jones is drafted in the top ten.


Why?


1. His medical red flag. Spinal Stenosis is the narrowing of the the spinal column where the nerves come through it at the bottom. It's a degenerative disease meaning the structure of the affected tissues will progressively deteriorate over time. Jones could get lucky and finish his career but why would an NFL franchise take such a risk? The disease also gives Jones a higher risk of paralysis considering the physical nature of the position he plays, this is why USC didn't clear him to play. Most teams will take him off of their board. I hear people say "if he checks out at the combine".. what the fuu.. what are they expecting him to not have this disease anymore? are they expecting a miracle?

2. His size. He is 6'2 240 pounds, he looks more like a RB then an OLB/DE. He will probably come into the combine at 250 pounds but who knows how that will effect his explosiveness, he isn't an elite athlete by any means, he can't stand to lose any athleticism.

Jarvis Jones is a very talented player, he reminds me of Clay Matthews, but the only way I would draft him in the first round is if I was already a contender like green bay, new england, san fran or atlanta.


Just a couple of things in regards to your statement

In regards to people stating "if he checks out at the combine," I can't speak for others but what I'm referencing is that there's varying degrees of the condition. As of yet I've not heard any specific information regarding how severe his situation is. All we know is that one college took the stance that they weren't willing to take a risk and another college cleared him to play. There's a pretty wide difference between the two stances.

Also, not all cases are degenerative. Some cases of spinal stenosis are acquired for example: tumors, trauma, or bone conditions such as Paget's disease. Others are inherited such as the condition called achondroplasia. The caveat and the reason most people are misinformed is that the majority of cases are i fact degenerative via aging with secondary changes due mostly to rheumatoid arthritis and osteoarthritis.

Sorry for the rant but I needed to get some things off my chest. It irritates me about how much misinformation is out there when it comes to this condition. I myself have been diagnosed with a minor L1-L2 Stenosis. The Army has seen fit to keep me on not just active duty but on Jump Status which is very stressful to the spinal column.

In summary, if our medical staff clears him then I'm okay with the selection.
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justwinbaby81


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 3788
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

101Raider wrote:
macklemore wrote:
RaiderX wrote:
macklemore wrote:
I'd be shocked if Jarvis Jones is drafted in the top ten.


Why?


1. His medical red flag. Spinal Stenosis is the narrowing of the the spinal column where the nerves come through it at the bottom. It's a degenerative disease meaning the structure of the affected tissues will progressively deteriorate over time. Jones could get lucky and finish his career but why would an NFL franchise take such a risk? The disease also gives Jones a higher risk of paralysis considering the physical nature of the position he plays, this is why USC didn't clear him to play. Most teams will take him off of their board. I hear people say "if he checks out at the combine".. what the fuu.. what are they expecting him to not have this disease anymore? are they expecting a miracle?

2. His size. He is 6'2 240 pounds, he looks more like a RB then an OLB/DE. He will probably come into the combine at 250 pounds but who knows how that will effect his explosiveness, he isn't an elite athlete by any means, he can't stand to lose any athleticism.

Jarvis Jones is a very talented player, he reminds me of Clay Matthews, but the only way I would draft him in the first round is if I was already a contender like green bay, new england, san fran or atlanta.


Just a couple of things in regards to your statement

In regards to people stating "if he checks out at the combine," I can't speak for others but what I'm referencing is that there's varying degrees of the condition. As of yet I've not heard any specific information regarding how severe his situation is. All we know is that one college took the stance that they weren't willing to take a risk and another college cleared him to play. There's a pretty wide difference between the two stances.

Also, not all cases are degenerative. Some cases of spinal stenosis are acquired for example: tumors, trauma, or bone conditions such as Paget's disease. Others are inherited such as the condition called achondroplasia. The caveat and the reason most people are misinformed is that the majority of cases are i fact degenerative via aging with secondary changes due mostly to rheumatoid arthritis and osteoarthritis.

Sorry for the rant but I needed to get some things off my chest. It irritates me about how much misinformation is out there when it comes to this condition. I myself have been diagnosed with a minor L1-L2 Stenosis. The Army has seen fit to keep me on not just active duty but on Jump Status which is very stressful to the spinal column.

In summary, if our medical staff clears him then I'm okay with the selection.


This should put an end to any argument there. First hand knowledge of this condition. We have to wait and see.

Thanks for this info. And thanks for your military service.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22180
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

101Raider wrote:
macklemore wrote:
RaiderX wrote:
macklemore wrote:
I'd be shocked if Jarvis Jones is drafted in the top ten.


Why?


1. His medical red flag. Spinal Stenosis is the narrowing of the the spinal column where the nerves come through it at the bottom. It's a degenerative disease meaning the structure of the affected tissues will progressively deteriorate over time. Jones could get lucky and finish his career but why would an NFL franchise take such a risk? The disease also gives Jones a higher risk of paralysis considering the physical nature of the position he plays, this is why USC didn't clear him to play. Most teams will take him off of their board. I hear people say "if he checks out at the combine".. what the fuu.. what are they expecting him to not have this disease anymore? are they expecting a miracle?

2. His size. He is 6'2 240 pounds, he looks more like a RB then an OLB/DE. He will probably come into the combine at 250 pounds but who knows how that will effect his explosiveness, he isn't an elite athlete by any means, he can't stand to lose any athleticism.

Jarvis Jones is a very talented player, he reminds me of Clay Matthews, but the only way I would draft him in the first round is if I was already a contender like green bay, new england, san fran or atlanta.


Just a couple of things in regards to your statement

In regards to people stating "if he checks out at the combine," I can't speak for others but what I'm referencing is that there's varying degrees of the condition. As of yet I've not heard any specific information regarding how severe his situation is. All we know is that one college took the stance that they weren't willing to take a risk and another college cleared him to play. There's a pretty wide difference between the two stances.

Also, not all cases are degenerative. Some cases of spinal stenosis are acquired for example: tumors, trauma, or bone conditions such as Paget's disease. Others are inherited such as the condition called achondroplasia. The caveat and the reason most people are misinformed is that the majority of cases are i fact degenerative via aging with secondary changes due mostly to rheumatoid arthritis and osteoarthritis.

Sorry for the rant but I needed to get some things off my chest. It irritates me about how much misinformation is out there when it comes to this condition. I myself have been diagnosed with a minor L1-L2 Stenosis. The Army has seen fit to keep me on not just active duty but on Jump Status which is very stressful to the spinal column.

In summary, if our medical staff clears him then I'm okay with the selection.


Great post. Good to see someone who has true insight. My understanding was it was diagnosed as a mild case originally and there is varying degrees to how degenerative this condition can be.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the insight 101. I still can't help but be nervous if we select him though. But if KC or JAX take him then we won't have to contemplate the choice
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yogi wrote:
Bo_Spice wrote:
If Jarvis Jones checks out medically he'd be a no brainer at number three.

Just asking, does this guy have anything besides a speed move?


Well, i haven't paid a lot of attention to him since i don't think the Raiders should take a chance on that guy but from the little i've seen, it seems to be a huge part of his pass rush. When the olinemen get their hands on him, he usually can't get off blocks. When he beats them with his first step, he's effective. Maybe some people who have watched him more would disagree though.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
Yogi wrote:
Bo_Spice wrote:
If Jarvis Jones checks out medically he'd be a no brainer at number three.

Just asking, does this guy have anything besides a speed move?


Well, i haven't paid a lot of attention to him since i don't think the Raiders should take a chance on that guy but from the little i've seen, it seems to be a huge part of his pass rush. When the olinemen get their hands on him, he usually can't get off blocks. When he beats them with his first step, he's effective. Maybe some people who have watched him more would disagree though.


Its really hard to find unbiased opinions on him. A lot of people are like you and I, uninformed because we aren't really considering picking him. But it looks to me like about everyone else who would consider him is in love with him. I think I'll poke around the internet and draft forum to read up more.
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
Yogi wrote:
Bo_Spice wrote:
If Jarvis Jones checks out medically he'd be a no brainer at number three.

Just asking, does this guy have anything besides a speed move?


Well, i haven't paid a lot of attention to him since i don't think the Raiders should take a chance on that guy but from the little i've seen, it seems to be a huge part of his pass rush. When the olinemen get their hands on him, he usually can't get off blocks. When he beats them with his first step, he's effective. Maybe some people who have watched him more would disagree though.


Its really hard to find unbiased opinions on him. A lot of people are like you and I, uninformed because we aren't really considering picking him. But it looks to me like about everyone else who would consider him is in love with him. I think I'll poke around the internet and draft forum to read up more.


Yeah, i'm just commenting on the little i saw and he didn't show great technique.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
Yogi wrote:
Bo_Spice wrote:
If Jarvis Jones checks out medically he'd be a no brainer at number three.

Just asking, does this guy have anything besides a speed move?


Well, i haven't paid a lot of attention to him since i don't think the Raiders should take a chance on that guy but from the little i've seen, it seems to be a huge part of his pass rush. When the olinemen get their hands on him, he usually can't get off blocks. When he beats them with his first step, he's effective. Maybe some people who have watched him more would disagree though.


Its really hard to find unbiased opinions on him. A lot of people are like you and I, uninformed because we aren't really considering picking him. But it looks to me like about everyone else who would consider him is in love with him. I think I'll poke around the internet and draft forum to read up more.


Yeah, i'm just commenting on the little i saw and he didn't show great technique.


To be perfectly honest, I'm just scouting him because I feel like I should since it is a real possibility that we pick him.

I would really prefer Dion Jordan if we were to try to select a LB capable of pass rushing. Bigger, better in coverage and already a respectable pass rusher. With some coaching and our scheming from Tarver and Allen, I truly believe Jordan could be our difference maker. Plus we might be able to sneak down to like 8 or 9 to pick him while netting a 2nd or 3rd in the process
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:


Since you're so smart please enlighten me on how does being older not help a college player.
You probably won't even answer this because as usual you're wrong.


I'm usually wrong, but everyone agrees that your comment was dumb.

Being older has nothing to do with a guys skill set. Clowney for example, many said he could play in the NFL out of high school. By your logic, he would be a poor player because he was younger.

Chance Warmack is 21. By your logic, he shouldn't be as good a player as a guard who is 23? Yet he could start today in the NFL and be an elite prospect. There is your answer. You're story is full of holes.

Also, I speaking of questions being answered. I've now asked you twice how many times you've watched Jones play. To which you've avoided showing you know you are just looking at stat sheets and judging his game. You're track record speaks for itself.



Stop twisting my words I said a player will be better at 23 then at 20.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:


Since you're so smart please enlighten me on how does being older not help a college player.
You probably won't even answer this because as usual you're wrong.


I'm usually wrong, but everyone agrees that your comment was dumb.

Being older has nothing to do with a guys skill set. Clowney for example, many said he could play in the NFL out of high school. By your logic, he would be a poor player because he was younger.

Chance Warmack is 21. By your logic, he shouldn't be as good a player as a guard who is 23? Yet he could start today in the NFL and be an elite prospect. There is your answer. You're story is full of holes.

Also, I speaking of questions being answered. I've now asked you twice how many times you've watched Jones play. To which you've avoided showing you know you are just looking at stat sheets and judging his game. You're track record speaks for itself.



Stop twisting my words I said a player will be better at 23 then at 20.


Laughing Laughing Laughing

I'm twisting your words. Your words would say that 21 year old Warmack isn't as good as a 26 year old guard Bergstrom.

You might want to know what your words are before saying they are being twisted. Laughing Laughing
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justwinbaby81


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
Yogi wrote:
Bo_Spice wrote:
If Jarvis Jones checks out medically he'd be a no brainer at number three.

Just asking, does this guy have anything besides a speed move?


Well, i haven't paid a lot of attention to him since i don't think the Raiders should take a chance on that guy but from the little i've seen, it seems to be a huge part of his pass rush. When the olinemen get their hands on him, he usually can't get off blocks. When he beats them with his first step, he's effective. Maybe some people who have watched him more would disagree though.


Its really hard to find unbiased opinions on him. A lot of people are like you and I, uninformed because we aren't really considering picking him. But it looks to me like about everyone else who would consider him is in love with him. I think I'll poke around the internet and draft forum to read up more.


Yeah, i'm just commenting on the little i saw and he didn't show great technique.


To be perfectly honest, I'm just scouting him because I feel like I should since it is a real possibility that we pick him.

I would really prefer Dion Jordan if we were to try to select a LB capable of pass rushing. Bigger, better in coverage and already a respectable pass rusher. With some coaching and our scheming from Tarver and Allen, I truly believe Jordan could be our difference maker. Plus we might be able to sneak down to like 8 or 9 to pick him while netting a 2nd or 3rd in the process


If I could choose between picking Jarvis Jones and trading down and getting Dion Jordan and an extra 2nd I would probably take Dion. He's number 7 on my board with the most to gain after workouts. A unique blend of pure athleticism and unmatchable versatility...he could really flourish into an Aldon Smith type guy. If we could end up with him and Tavon Austin for our third pick...that's probably my ideal draft. Get a ridiculously versatile gadget player on both sides of the ball. Mismatches drive success in today's league.
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