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Socraticsilence
Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 3351
Location: Missoula, MT
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 Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| You can probably make QB less valuable-- there's no reason a QB should inherently be valuable, you could probably have 2 or 3 good read option QBs that are all paid in the mid-range, but the year to do that would have been last draft or the one before-- with the success of RG3, Wilson and Kap dual threat guys wont be undervalued and thus present easy FA or draft steals like they would have in the past. |
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Bobikus
Joined: 07 Jun 2009
Posts: 6319
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Socraticsilence wrote: | | there's no reason a QB should inherently be valuable |
Aside from the forward pass being the core concept of football and the QB being the one that makes the forward pass happen.
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Geno Smith, Tavon Austin, Stedman Bailey, and Bruce Irvin will all have at least 1 pro bowl season each by the end of the decade.
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BBIB
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 7414
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Bobikus wrote: |
Tarkenton, Elway, Cunningham, Culpepper, Roethlisberger, etc had all found consistent success by using mobility to compensate for not being elite pure pocket passers.
The Pistol isn't going to change or open the talent pool because the kind of players that benefit from such offenses have already been playing in the NFL, and it's not going to change that in order to have long term success that you'll still need a QB with high-caliber accuracy and a combination of pocket awareness, arm strength, and mobility. (and that even if two of those 3 are elite, the 3rd better still be good or top-end defenses are going to start taking advantage of that deficiency eventually).
It absolutely will not make QBs expendable, and at BEST will allow a team or two more to make due in the regular season with a serviceable but not great QB (which is something teams have been managing to also do for decades without Chip Kelly or the Pistol), at least until that offense has more game film to use against it. |
LOL you can't honestly say Tarkenton, Elway, and Cunningham weren't special players
You can NOT say that most dual threat Qbs can pass as well as Big Ben
None of those players were in innovative schemes that made up for them being AVERAGE AT BEST passers
It's pretty harsh as well as false to say none of those guys had a claim for being more than an AVERAGE AT BEST passer
But in a scheme creative enough to be a consistent threat in the running game, all it may take is an average passer because the type of defensive looks that player look are far more favorable
The type of looks that a Kaepernick gets in the 49ers offense are the type of looks the average pocket passer could only dream of in terms of how open those receivers get because teams first and second priority is to take away the running threat from that formation
So when I say average passer I don't mean Denard Robinson. But I do mean just basically any QB in the NFL worth their salt should be able to complete passes to receivers who get that open at this level
Sure that QB still has to be able to occasionally thread the needle but the average passing window they are going to have is going to be much larger by comparison. Not to mention the type of defenses that opposing teams can run is much more limited
With a traditional passer the whole playbook is open as well as the ability to drop 7-8 guys in coverage. The ability to play all man coverage, etc
You can't do that against a dual threat guy in a creative enough scheme to make you pay for that |
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NickButera
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Posts: 5099
Location: Nevada
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:36 am Post subject: |
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BBIB, I think what you're failing to grasp is how rare a true, dual threat QB really is. You can't be just "average" at passing and be a "threat" at the same time. Kaep is much better than average, he had the best QBR in the league the last 7 weeks of the season if memory serves me right. He makes great throws, and is great from the pocket.
You say the QB can become expendable, but what you need for the QB to become expendable is 2 or 3 Steve Youngs to be on your roster. Guys who have great speed AND can do all the pocket passing and defense reading audibling skills at a high level. If you're expendable QB's are average at either running or passing, they are no longer a real threat to the defense in both areas. They would be average and wouldn't be able to sustain success all season long nor in the postseason.
We have a lot if great running QB's coming in and out of the league, the problem has always been they haven't also been great passers. Which is why what you're asking for is much more difficult to obtain than it sounds. Only now are we seein an influx of fast QB's who can also throw. But to get two or three of these guys on a roster would be very hard pressed.
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Bah-Weep-Granah-Weep-Nini-Bong
My short-term memory is not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my short-term memory is not as sharp as it used to be. |
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Bobikus
Joined: 07 Jun 2009
Posts: 6319
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:45 am Post subject: |
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You entirely misunderstood my post and I seriously can't tell if you intentionally did so or not.
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Geno Smith, Tavon Austin, Stedman Bailey, and Bruce Irvin will all have at least 1 pro bowl season each by the end of the decade.
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ArrowheadRage58
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 3550
Location: Hate for the Donkeys is at a mile high
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| BBIB wrote: | As the classic stat goes for Mike Shanahan from 1995 to 2004 he had a running back go for over 1100 yards over that entire span for every year except one
And he did this with Reuben Droughns, Mike Anderson and Olandis Gary
If someone brings a system to the NFL that can do that at the QB position, again it would be a nightmare for all the football purists out there |
Any RB can run for 1,000 yards if they don't split time. Shanahan's system might be better than most, but the main reason those guys ran for 1,000 yards is because they got the bulk of the carries. It's not that hard.
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| fortdetroit wrote: | | I wonder if people realize that Matt Cassel's 2 best seasons of his career are probably better than anything Alex Smith has ever done. |
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skatebeanz
Joined: 13 Apr 2009
Posts: 17513
Location: Jamison. on the Sweet-sig.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| NickButera wrote: | BBIB, I think what you're failing to grasp is how rare a true, dual threat QB really is. You can't be just "average" at passing and be a "threat" at the same time. Kaep is much better than average, he had the best QBR in the league the last 7 weeks of the season if memory serves me right. He makes great throws, and is great from the pocket.
You say the QB can become expendable, but what you need for the QB to become expendable is 2 or 3 Steve Youngs to be on your roster. Guys who have great speed AND can do all the pocket passing and defense reading audibling skills at a high level. If you're expendable QB's are average at either running or passing, they are no longer a real threat to the defense in both areas. They would be average and wouldn't be able to sustain success all season long nor in the postseason.
We have a lot if great running QB's coming in and out of the league, the problem has always been they haven't also been great passers. Which is why what you're asking for is much more difficult to obtain than it sounds. Only now are we seein an influx of fast QB's who can also throw. But to get two or three of these guys on a roster would be very hard pressed. |
I see what you are saying. However, his QBR I promise is raised when he has the threat to run because of the way the defense has to play him.
Not a coincidence that RG3, CK7, and RW all had high QBR while running the read option.
And that isn't something ting him on either. it is a talent just like Brady's arm/mind.
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| detfan782004 wrote: | | If he [Ansah] doesn't exceed career sacks this year I'm calling it a bust, all 4.5 |
Last edited by skatebeanz on Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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SteelKing728
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 11015
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| iknowcool wrote: | | BBIB wrote: | As the classic stat goes for Mike Shanahan from 1995 to 2004 he had a running back go for over 1100 yards over that entire span for every year except one
And he did this with Reuben Droughns, Mike Anderson and Olandis Gary
If someone brings a system to the NFL that can do that at the QB position, again it would be a nightmare for all the football purists out there |
Running back isn't quarterback. It isn't the same thing. A running back could succeed because of having a great offensive line in front of him. At the end of the day, how successful a QB passes the ball is all on him.
It's a ridiculous concept. QB simply is not HB. It's easy to see. |
Yeah, I don't understand this either.
Its not like a starting Runningback can just jump straight to QB and have success.
Because in order to be a successful running QB, you still have to pass the ball. The defense needs to respect that. If they respect the pass and don't put 11 guys in the box, then the read option can work.
No, you can't just have "2-3 guys" who are pure athletes and have no passing ability whatsoever come in and play QB. Thats not how it works, and Chip Kelly knows it.
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Thanks Jamison on that avi.
2013 Adopt a Minnesota Viking - Jared Allen - DE - #69 |
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BBIB
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 7414
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| NickButera wrote: | BBIB, I think what you're failing to grasp is how rare a true, dual threat QB really is. You can't be just "average" at passing and be a "threat" at the same time. Kaep is much better than average, he had the best QBR in the league the last 7 weeks of the season if memory serves me right. He makes great throws, and is great from the pocket.
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That's the same team that Alex Smith had an elite passer rating and completion percentage. And the looks he got aren't nearly as favorable
THe top reasons why it's so much more difficult to play QB in the NFL than college are
1)Much smaller passing windows. You have to constantly thread the needle instead of throwing to open receivers
2)Much less time to throw the football. You don't have the average time that Brady had on the 2007 Pats in the NFL.
3)Much more compllicated looks pre-snap and post-snap from defenses
What the type of offense that Kaepernick does is make all three
of things things drastically more favorable
Defenses have to give more predictable looks and have to play more predictable coverages
There is more time to throw the ball because they have to respect the threat of the run and the freezing of backside defenders
And the receivers get considerably more open because they have to respect the threat to run
ANd that's not to mention it's easier for the QB to see from that shotgun formation as well as execute playaction passes from that formation than a normal drop back
So in reality a QB wouldn't have to be more than an average passer to be highly efficient in that offense. And let's not pretend average passer is some poor label. Someone who is good enough to be a top 15-25 passer isn't something I'm saying a Denard Robinson level
But a guy who is a 15-25 level passer could look like a top 5-10 passer if he has all those advantages when he steps back to throw
And that's not even mentioning less guys in coverage than the average QB would face because defenses can't have 7-8 guys in coverage vs that offense |
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BBIB
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 7414
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| SteelKing728 wrote: |
Yeah, I don't understand this either.
Its not like a starting Runningback can just jump straight to QB and have success.
Because in order to be a successful running QB, you still have to pass the ball. The defense needs to respect that. If they respect the pass and don't put 11 guys in the box, then the read option can work.
No, you can't just have "2-3 guys" who are pure athletes and have no passing ability whatsoever come in and play QB. Thats not how it works, and Chip Kelly knows it. |
That's still a strawman of what is stated. No one is saying that Adrian Peterson can play quarterback. But that there is a signifcantly increased pool of college Qbs who can legitimately complete routes on an NFL passing tree and are above average athletes
That's not saying that those QBs can process information pre and post snap like a Peyton Manning or Drew Brees
But
#1)Only 5-6 of those guys exist at any given time in the league
#2)They have advantages in terms of the looks they get from defenses that those elite passers who can't run or who don' play in that type of offense have
Those elite passers don't get to face 5-6 or less guys in coverage on every passing play
Those elite passers don't get to face those incredible passing windows on the average play from scrimmage.
Those elite passers don't get pass rushers neutralized as much as they are on the average play from scrimmage
It's advantages that could allow someone who is an average passer to putting up above average and elite production
And again average doesn't mean someone who throws like an NFL running back or receiver. It means someone who should be able to legitimately complete the NFL route tree, which any backup QB worth their salt should be able to do |
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McCoyJukeYou
Joined: 08 Dec 2011
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| BBIB wrote: | | NickButera wrote: | BBIB, I think what you're failing to grasp is how rare a true, dual threat QB really is. You can't be just "average" at passing and be a "threat" at the same time. Kaep is much better than average, he had the best QBR in the league the last 7 weeks of the season if memory serves me right. He makes great throws, and is great from the pocket.
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That's the same team that Alex Smith had an elite passer rating and completion percentage. And the looks he got aren't nearly as favorable
THe top reasons why it's so much more difficult to play QB in the NFL than college are
1)Much smaller passing windows. You have to constantly thread the needle instead of throwing to open receivers
2)Much less time to throw the football. You don't have the average time that Brady had on the 2007 Pats in the NFL.
3)Much more compllicated looks pre-snap and post-snap from defenses
What the type of offense that Kaepernick does is make all three
of things things drastically more favorable
Defenses have to give more predictable looks and have to play more predictable coverages
There is more time to throw the ball because they have to respect the threat of the run and the freezing of backside defenders
And the receivers get considerably more open because they have to respect the threat to run
ANd that's not to mention it's easier for the QB to see from that shotgun formation as well as execute playaction passes from that formation than a normal drop back
So in reality a QB wouldn't have to be more than an average passer to be highly efficient in that offense. And let's not pretend average passer is some poor label. Someone who is good enough to be a top 15-25 passer isn't something I'm saying a Denard Robinson level
But a guy who is a 15-25 level passer could look like a top 5-10 passer if he has all those advantages when he steps back to throw
And that's not even mentioning less guys in coverage than the average QB would face because defenses can't have 7-8 guys in coverage vs that offense |
What you fail to realize is that your crush Mike Vick and his athletic counterparts can't play QB because they aren't QBs. They can't read defenses. They can't stay healthy. They have no accuracy and no fundamental QB qualities. Kaepernick has actually developed accuracy and has shown the ability to stay healthy because he, like Cam Newton and other mobile QBs, are big, physical specimens. This allows them to stay relatively healthy. Denard Robinson would not succeed in Kelly's system, nor any other NFL system, because he would get hurt trying to make plays. He and Vick are just overhyped turnover machines who can't throw.
Your premise here is that Chip Kelly is some magician who can suddenly make bad players like Vick become serviceable within his system. That works when you are playing Arizona State and UCLA, but it won't work when they are playing the New York Giants next year. |
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Django
Joined: 03 May 2012
Posts: 1497
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:15 pm Post subject: Didnt read, posted just because, lol |
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Rumless
Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 1208
Location: Chiefs Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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This thread would be getting a lot less hate if it was named "What if the QB position becomes expendable one day?"
And to be honest, I can see a team electing to manipulate the draft and CBA rules and draft a QB every 3-4 years to start him for a short time. I can see the reason being that your QB is playing really well and wants a new contract, and the team is in cap hell, they could pull something like that. However, to do it successfully requires a coach who has an offense with multiple wrinkles and isn't constrained to a single player type. Such a system would also go against NFL traditions, where you have a QB who is the face of the franchise. It's really not that far-fetched to try to manipulate the system from all ends to reach a desired effect.
An offense that can adjust to a player's weaknesses and strengths will be more dynamic and efficient. I don't think in the near future we'll see what I described in the above paragraph, simply because once a team finds a working QB they want to stick with him for as long as possible. We're going to see Flacco get a nice deal this offseason for that reason alone.
The amount of poor-quality arguments and posts in this thread are kind of saddening. Show some respect to your fellow posters without dismissing or insulting them.
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| aceinthehouse wrote: | I personally do NOT think Lewis is the Greatest MLBer ever.
In fact, I'm not sure he's better than our very own London Fletcher. |
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BBIB
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 7414
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| McCoyJukeYou wrote: |
Your premise here is that Chip Kelly is some magician who can suddenly make bad players like Vick become serviceable within his system. That works when you are playing Arizona State and UCLA, but it won't work when they are playing the New York Giants next year. |
Well if Vick the "bad" player can already beat the Giants more often than he loses to them, I don't think any magic is necessary.
Vick the "bad" player is the highest rated passer in Eagles history. That's how well he played in 2010 that his rating is still that high on that team
BTW, name the "good" player that would have led the 2012 Eagles to success with one of the worst Olines in the league and a shoddy defense to boot
Vick is so "bad" that he still managed to account for more TDs than INTs despite all the hits he took.
And none of those hits cost him any injury to his legs, torso, etc
He got a concussion, something that ANY player can get.
Last edited by BBIB on Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BBIB
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 7414
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Rumless wrote: | This thread would be getting a lot less hate if it was named "What if the QB position becomes expendable one day?"
And to be honest, I can see a team electing to manipulate the draft and CBA rules and draft a QB every 3-4 years to start him for a short time. I can see the reason being that your QB is playing really well and wants a new contract, and the team is in cap hell, they could pull something like that. However, to do it successfully requires a coach who has an offense with multiple wrinkles and isn't constrained to a single player type. Such a system would also go against NFL traditions, where you have a QB who is the face of the franchise. It's really not that far-fetched to try to manipulate the system from all ends to reach a desired effect.
An offense that can adjust to a player's weaknesses and strengths will be more dynamic and efficient. I don't think in the near future we'll see what I described in the above paragraph, simply because once a team finds a working QB they want to stick with him for as long as possible. We're going to see Flacco get a nice deal this offseason for that reason alone.
The amount of poor-quality arguments and posts in this thread are kind of saddening. Show some respect to your fellow posters without dismissing or insulting them. |
I'm not taking offense to any of the insults though because Im challenging something that is sacrilegious to football fans. THe QB position is the one position that football fans pump their chest about how it takes this elite player and how certain players don't have what it takes to get it done
If you broadened the field of the QB position to the point where you could win with an ordinary QB in the equivalent that you can win with an ordinary Center in the NBA (something you couldn't do in the past) people would have a HUGE problem with accepting that
They would actually have to give credit to *Gulp* a TEAM instead of an individual player
And heck not only would fans hate that but the media and all the companies that endorse those individual players would as well
So I expected this kind of pushback |
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