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What If Chip Kelly Makes The QB Position Expendable?
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Bobikus


Joined: 07 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The net effect of broadening the talent pool of "great" QBs is going to be pretty minimal really, since the Brady/Manning style of immoble passing turrets are becoming a thing of the past. QBs who aren't the traditional Brady/Manning mold are becoming increasingly undesirable now compared to guys who can combine their passing skills with ample mobility.

If the pistol, read option, and mobile QB oriented offenses become the future, it's not going to add to the types of desirable QBs, it's just going to shift the attributes need to be considered an elite QB.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobikus wrote:
The net effect of broadening the talent pool of "great" QBs is going to be pretty minimal really, since the Brady/Manning style of immoble passing turrets are becoming a thing of the past. QBs who aren't the traditional Brady/Manning mold are becoming increasingly undesirable now compared to guys who can combine their passing skills with ample mobility.

If the pistol, read option, and mobile QB oriented offenses become the future, it's not going to add to the types of desirable QBs, it's just going to shift the attributes need to be considered an elite QB.


Well again I think the topic of the thread should have been pure pocket passer expendable

Not QB in general. IN other words, it's not necessary to have to have the pure pocket passer in order to get it done.

Just like it's not necessary to have that guy in college, the same can happen in the pros with the talent pool, with the new innovations that have been and will continue to be introduced in the league to feature guys in the spread offense with the option components, and all the rule changes that take away the physicality
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McCoyJukeYou


Joined: 08 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:
McCoyJukeYou wrote:

Your premise here is that Chip Kelly is some magician who can suddenly make bad players like Vick become serviceable within his system. That works when you are playing Arizona State and UCLA, but it won't work when they are playing the New York Giants next year.


Well if Vick the "bad" player can already beat the Giants more often than he loses to them, I don't think any magic is necessary.

Vick the "bad" player is the highest rated passer in Eagles history. That's how well he played in 2010 that his rating is still that high on that team

BTW, name the "good" player that would have led the 2012 Eagles to success with one of the worst Olines in the league and a shoddy defense to boot

Vick is so "bad" that he still managed to account for more TDs than INTs despite all the hits he took.

And none of those hits cost him any injury to his legs, torso, etc

He got a concussion, something that ANY player can get.


Yeah, Vick really tore it up against the Giants last year with his 19-17 victory and 45-7 loss. He sure proved his worth in those shootouts.

Your next point is just dumb. I don't care what Vick did 2 seasons ago. It was great, but he has regressed mightily since then. 1 good season 2 years ago doesn't eliminate back-to-back bad seasons.

There aren't many QBs who could have made the playoffs with this team. But there are many more QBs who could have outplayed Vick and gotten the Eagles more wins than he did. Vick was atrocious last year.

And don't make excuses. Vick got a concussion this time, but sometimes it's broken ribs. Sometimes it's a bruised finger. Sometimes he's just rattled. Bottom line is, Vick is a guy who cannot stay healthy. He would miss games regardless of who he played for. The O-line had nothing to do with Vick's injury this year; he suffered it when he scrambled down the field and got tackled.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McCoyJukeYou wrote:


Yeah, Vick really tore it up against the Giants last year with his 19-17 victory and 45-7 loss. He sure proved his worth in those shootouts.

Your next point is just dumb. I don't care what Vick did 2 seasons ago. It was great, but he has regressed mightily since then. 1 good season 2 years ago doesn't eliminate back-to-back bad seasons.

There aren't many QBs who could have made the playoffs with this team. But there are many more QBs who could have outplayed Vick and gotten the Eagles more wins than he did. Vick was atrocious last year.

And don't make excuses. Vick got a concussion this time, but sometimes it's broken ribs. Sometimes it's a bruised finger. Sometimes he's just rattled. Bottom line is, Vick is a guy who cannot stay healthy. He would miss games regardless of who he played for. The O-line had nothing to do with Vick's injury this year; he suffered it when he scrambled down the field and got tackled.


So there are Qbs who could have led the Eagles to maybe a 7 win season instead of a 4 win season?

Wow that's some improvement. Not to mention, Vick himself could have led that team to that type of win total if he never gets knocked out that Cowboys game

BTW, if you want to bash Vick we can start another thread for that.


This is about the QB position in general and how the rule changes along with offensive innovation can lead to dual threat QBs having more success than ever

And because of how many dual threat and spread option attacks are in college, how teams could have multiple guys like that on their roster in case the starter misses 2-3 games a year
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

CSN Philly reports there are "strong indications" the Eagles will pursue Ravens practice squad QB Dennis Dixon after the Super Bowl.
According to beat writer Geoff Mosher, "all signs point to" Chip Kelly pushing hard for one of his college quarterbacks. Mosher believes Dixon could be an Eagle "by next week." A Heisman trophy candidate before tearing his ACL his senior year at Oregon, Dixon has made just four career appearances in five NFL seasons, but knows Kelly's offense as well as anyone. It's extremely doubtful Dixon would be in play for the Eagles' starting job, but he'd have a good shot at a roster spot after spending 2012 on the practice squad.


If the Eagles sign Dennis Dixon then it's pretty much an absolute certainty that Chip Kelly plans on implementing a system around a dual threat QB.

If this report is true, then it's good news for Vick and it may show after all that although one may doubt if he can successfully do it or not, Chip Kelly may seriously plan on getting a stable of dual threat QBs to run his offense, so even if one goes down for 2-3 games, he'll have another guy to plug into the system
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WhackyPlague


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:
If the Eagles sign Dennis Dixon then it's pretty much an absolute certainty that Chip Kelly plans on implementing a system around a dual threat QB.


I really don't think so. Chip Kelly probably just wants a guy familiar with how he runs things and some of his concepts.

I'd still be pretty surprised if Foles doesn't start in 2013.
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WhackyPlague wrote:
BBIB wrote:
If the Eagles sign Dennis Dixon then it's pretty much an absolute certainty that Chip Kelly plans on implementing a system around a dual threat QB.


I really don't think so. Chip Kelly probably just wants a guy familiar with how he runs things and some of his concepts.

I'd still be pretty surprised if Foles doesn't start in 2013.


So wouldn't those concepts be partially centered around having a dual-threat QB?
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WhackyPlague


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sp6488 wrote:
WhackyPlague wrote:
BBIB wrote:
If the Eagles sign Dennis Dixon then it's pretty much an absolute certainty that Chip Kelly plans on implementing a system around a dual threat QB.


I really don't think so. Chip Kelly probably just wants a guy familiar with how he runs things and some of his concepts.

I'd still be pretty surprised if Foles doesn't start in 2013.


So wouldn't those concepts be partially centered around having a dual-threat QB?


Partially, but the speed of the offense (no huddle, one-word calls), quick throws and placing all blame for sacks on the QB, and practice tempo are all probably more important for Kelly's likely NFL system (Patriots-esque).
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willy_law


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think its a stretch and a big stretch at that but it is an interesting point to see if that at some point. The need for an elite passing QB would be neutralized.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

willy_law wrote:
I think its a stretch and a big stretch at that but it is an interesting point to see if that at some point. The need for an elite passing QB would be neutralized.


It's been completely neutralized at the college level and the biggest fear for many is that the same could happen in the NFL

The style of QB that you need could become totally irrelevant when it comes to winning a title.

And with the talent pool of high school and college game, the talent pool in the NFL for qualified effective starters could heavily favor dual threat guys

Because there are only so many guys who can be flat out elite from the pocket
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WhackyPlague


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:
It's been completely neutralized at the college level and the biggest fear for many is that the same could happen in the NFL


Not completely. But a big reason is the lack of DB depth in college -- you don't need an elite QB to make all the throws most of the time.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WhackyPlague wrote:
BBIB wrote:
It's been completely neutralized at the college level and the biggest fear for many is that the same could happen in the NFL


Not completely. But a big reason is the lack of DB depth in college -- you don't need an elite QB to make all the throws most of the time.


What do you mean not completely? How can one even debate at this point the style of QB that you need to win a national championship? It CLEARLY doesn't matter at that level

Whether if it's a Cam Newton, Tim Tebow, or Greg McElroy or AJ McCarronn. Style of QB is irrelevant at this point in college football


And as far as an elite QB, the whole point is you don't need an elite pocket thrower in the NFL anymore if there is continued success with the pistol offense and other creative formations and playcalling for dual threat QBs
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SteelKing728


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In 3 years, when this entire option thing dies, I'm gonna look at this thread and just laugh.

The QB position, the pocket passer will never die out. If you play QB, you must be an able passer, and if you think guys like Dennis Dixon, Joe Webb, Pat White etc will be that, you got another thing coming.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelKing728 wrote:
In 3 years, when this entire option thing dies, I'm gonna look at this thread and just laugh.

The QB position, the pocket passer will never die out. If you play QB, you must be an able passer, and if you think guys like Dennis Dixon, Joe Webb, Pat White etc will be that, you got another thing coming.


Joe Webb and Pat White (my favorite college player ever) don't belong in the same sentence as Dennis Dixon as a passer.

Not that Dennis Dixon is some Steve Young great passer, but he can at least show some level of competency at this point of his career

I think the laughability is on the part of those who are in complete denial of the style of offenses that are becoming more prevalent in college which is INCREASING the talent pool of college QBs who can run and throw

Not about guys who throw like Hines Ward or Antoine Randle El or Brad Smith. Those guys couldn't even throw well at the college level.

But who throw well enough to at least be considered a backup QB in the old days. But under this new system could be favorable starters

Because they will have the advantage of looks that a normal starter won't have in terms of the coverages they see and in terms of pressure by opposing defenses as well as the passing windows because of the added running threat

Most dual threat QBs in the past haven't been in offenses where these could be advantages on display. They've instead been put in pure pocket drop back offenses that neutralized all of those advantages.


So in 3 years what may actually happen is that people who are against the option may find another sport to watch


Last edited by BBIB on Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bobikus


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:

And as far as an elite QB, the whole point is you don't need an elite pocket thrower in the NFL anymore if there is continued success with the pistol offense and other creative formations and playcalling for dual threat QBs


No, you'll just need elite dual-threat QBs instead, trading one desired type of elite player for another.
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