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3-4 player transition thread
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DawgSoldier


Joined: 30 Oct 2007
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Location: Medina OH
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
Where is Gocong going to get this additional explosiveness and fluidity to play outside from? Is that one of the benefits of having Achilles' Tendon reconstructive surgery?

Jamir Miller was one of the best pass-rushing linebackers in the NFL when he blew his Achilles', and was never the same player again. Gocong wasn't anywhere near his level pre-injury, and never before in his NFL career played ROLB in a 3-4.

There is a zero percent chance Gocong ends up the starting ROLB in this defense. I will sig bet that all day.


excellent points ditch
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DawgSoldier


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sobo Wrote;
Quote:
Depends on your definition, because I'm more used to terms like Jack, Buck, Mike, etc. But I'll apply Bum's take on how I see each of these prospects...
SharkDawg wrote: Assume for now we end up with Pagano. It looks like the Chargers ran the Phillips 3-4. How would you line up the defensive depth chart with our current roster (including separating out strong vs weak sides)?

What positions would the following guys play:
Jarvis Jones - Will
Bjoern Werner - Sam/Will
Damontre Moore - Sam/Will
Dion Jordan - Will
Sam Montgomery - Weakside end
Barkevious Mingo - Will
Alex Okafor - Sam
Ezekiel Ansah - Either end
Corey Lemonier - Sam
William Gholston - Strongside end
Star Lotulelei - nose or either end
Manti Te'o - Ted or Mike
Kevin Minter - Ted or Mike
Alec Ogletree - Mike
Nico Johnson - Ted or Mike
Chase Thomas - Will or Sam
Brandon Jenkins - Will

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Ether


Joined: 16 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
Where is Gocong going to get this additional explosiveness and fluidity to play outside from? Is that one of the benefits of having Achilles' Tendon reconstructive surgery?

Jamir Miller was one of the best pass-rushing linebackers in the NFL when he blew his Achilles', and was never the same player again. Gocong wasn't anywhere near his level pre-injury, and never before in his NFL career played ROLB in a 3-4.

There is a zero percent chance Gocong ends up the starting ROLB in this defense. I will sig bet that all day.


At best I see him being able to hold the edge and push the pocket, basically what Matt Roth was. Except I don't think he's as strong or has the leverage that Roth had. And Roth wasn't even that good, so I don't know why Gocong at OLB is getting talked about.

He'd have to just randomly reinvent his NFL career. He probably got all those sacks in college by probably being the by far the best athlete on the field and likely isn't a pass rusher in the NFL or else somebody would have used him as one.
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GeneralDissaray


Joined: 07 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man you guys were running the 4-3 with 3-4 tackles. We were running the 3-4 with 4-3 tackles. Do you think Sheard has a good chance of succeeding with his hand up?

You could be in position to get just about any 3-4 OLB you want in this draft. KC has Tamba Hali, and Justin Houston(24 yrs old and just had 10sacks). Jags are staying 4-3. Eagles are switching to the 3-4, but I think they might trade up with KC, and take Geno Smith. Lions are 4-3.

Any interest in trading Tank Carder to us for say a 6th?
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DawgSoldier


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GeneralDissaray wrote:
Man you guys were running the 4-3 with 3-4 tackles. We were running the 3-4 with 4-3 tackles. Do you think Sheard has a good chance of succeeding with his hand up?

You could be in position to get just about any 3-4 OLB you want in this draft. KC has Tamba Hali, and Justin Houston(24 yrs old and just had 10sacks). Jags are staying 4-3. Eagles are switching to the 3-4, but I think they might trade up with KC, and take Geno Smith. Lions are 4-3.

Any interest in trading Tank Carder to us for say a 6th?


DQ for a 3rd?
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ditchdigger


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DawgSoldier wrote:
GeneralDissaray wrote:
Man you guys were running the 4-3 with 3-4 tackles. We were running the 3-4 with 4-3 tackles. Do you think Sheard has a good chance of succeeding with his hand up?

You could be in position to get just about any 3-4 OLB you want in this draft. KC has Tamba Hali, and Justin Houston(24 yrs old and just had 10sacks). Jags are staying 4-3. Eagles are switching to the 3-4, but I think they might trade up with KC, and take Geno Smith. Lions are 4-3.

Any interest in trading Tank Carder to us for say a 6th?


DQ for a 3rd?




To answer your question seriously GD, that would be a decent trade. Only thing is, we'd probably have to use the 6th on linebacker depth so it would only be worthwhile if the new staff doesn't want him around.

Sheard was considered a 3-4 OLB prospect going into the draft, so I don't see why he'd have a hard time making the switch. He spent much of the latter part of the season in a 2-point stance.
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GeneralDissaray


Joined: 07 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
DawgSoldier wrote:
GeneralDissaray wrote:
Man you guys were running the 4-3 with 3-4 tackles. We were running the 3-4 with 4-3 tackles. Do you think Sheard has a good chance of succeeding with his hand up?

You could be in position to get just about any 3-4 OLB you want in this draft. KC has Tamba Hali, and Justin Houston(24 yrs old and just had 10sacks). Jags are staying 4-3. Eagles are switching to the 3-4, but I think they might trade up with KC, and take Geno Smith. Lions are 4-3.

Any interest in trading Tank Carder to us for say a 6th?


DQ for a 3rd?




To answer your question seriously GD, that would be a decent trade. Only thing is, we'd probably have to use the 6th on linebacker depth so it would only be worthwhile if the new staff doesn't want him around.

Sheard was considered a 3-4 OLB prospect going into the draft, so I don't see why he'd have a hard time making the switch. He spent much of the latter part of the season in a 2-point stance.


I only looked at Tank's weight of 237lbs, and the fact that he was labeled more of a 4-3 OLB prospect in his draft profile. He is 6'3" though, so he has the frame to bulk up for the 3-4.
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Entropy


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The more I think of it, switching to 3-4 will expose our weak secondary even more.

If the ??? guys we have playing LB can't benefit from the ??? guys we have playing on the line enough to get pressure on the QB, opposing QBs will have more time to find open receivers not being covered by Haden.

Even if the ??? guys we have playing LB somehow benefit from the ??? guys we have playing the line and get good pressure on the QB, all that would do it put even more pressure on the secondary to take advantage of quicker passes on a few more plays than last year. We don't have anyone but Haden that can play well near the LOS. We don't have anyone but Haden that can jump a route on a quick pass. We don't have anyone that can play the pass well in the middle of the field. We don't have a physical DB that can reroute a short pattern.

But hey, maybe we'll get so much pressure that the opposing QB that he will just get sacked, throw the ball away, have his pass defended at the LOS, or throw an INT on so many plays that the only receiver he ever throws to will be the one covered by Haden.

I think there's actually a really good chance of that. It's not like great pass rushing defenses don't dictate where a QB throws (or if he throws) on 100% of passing plays.

Well, maybe itís more like 90%, right? Yeah, 90% of the time a good pass rushing defense dictates if, where, and when the QB throws.

Uhh, maybe it's 80%? No wait...70%...yeah, that's the ticket...good pass rushing defenses have an aggregate total of around 350 sacks, hits, and hurries.

Would you believe 50%? so like and aggregate total of 250? No?

Ok, let's just pretend it's 40% ok? Well, those other 60% would clearly be all directed at Haden, since the pass rush would make the QB feel "uncomfortable" and whenever a QB is "uncomfortable" he throws to Haden...sound good?

I'll send the memo out to all NFL QBs to remind them to always throw to Haden whenever the feel "uncomfortable", and we'll be fine...uh...as long as we can make the QB feel "uncomfortable" on all of the plays we don't sack him on...which is pretty easy since I just typed that it is.

YAY, we have a great defense now!!!!

??? IS GON BEAST
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Dropkick_pride


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
The more I think of it, switching to 3-4 will expose our weak secondary even more.

If the ??? guys we have playing LB can't benefit from the ??? guys we have playing on the line enough to get pressure on the QB, opposing QBs will have more time to find open receivers not being covered by Haden.

Even if the ??? guys we have playing LB somehow benefit from the ??? guys we have playing the line and get good pressure on the QB, all that would do it put even more pressure on the secondary to take advantage of quicker passes on a few more plays than last year. We don't have anyone but Haden that can play well near the LOS. We don't have anyone but Haden that can jump a route on a quick pass. We don't have anyone that can play the pass well in the middle of the field. We don't have a physical DB that can reroute a short pattern.

But hey, maybe we'll get so much pressure that the opposing QB that he will just get sacked, throw the ball away, have his pass defended at the LOS, or throw an INT on so many plays that the only receiver he ever throws to will be the one covered by Haden.

I think there's actually a really good chance of that. It's not like great pass rushing defenses don't dictate where a QB throws (or if he throws) on 100% of passing plays.

Well, maybe itís more like 90%, right? Yeah, 90% of the time a good pass rushing defense dictates if, where, and when the QB throws.

Uhh, maybe it's 80%? No wait...70%...yeah, that's the ticket...good pass rushing defenses have an aggregate total of around 350 sacks, hits, and hurries.

Would you believe 50%? so like and aggregate total of 250? No?

Ok, let's just pretend it's 40% ok? Well, those other 60% would clearly be all directed at Haden, since the pass rush would make the QB feel "uncomfortable" and whenever a QB is "uncomfortable" he throws to Haden...sound good?

I'll send the memo out to all NFL QBs to remind them to always throw to Haden whenever the feel "uncomfortable", and we'll be fine...uh...as long as we can make the QB feel "uncomfortable" on all of the plays we don't sack him on...which is pretty easy since I just typed that it is.

YAY, we have a great defense now!!!!

??? IS GON BEAST


Secondary is a huge problem, no doubt about it.

At this point most everyone is infatuated with drafting a great pass rushing LB, but quite a bit will happen Wth the roster before Draft time... But don't tell the average fan that.
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sparroww77


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think are Dline will be actually better in a 3-4. But we definitely need 2 starting OLB and rotational players.

Rubin, Taylor, Winn as are 3 starters. Then mix in Hughes, Rucker and one of these 3 Stephens, Sanford, English

Jackson is the only LB i have confident in starting in the 3-4
Gocong JMJ or Fort would complete for the other ILB and backups. Sheard is the only pass rusher on the team and i don't think he would make a good 3-4 OLB and we don't have anyone else for the other OLB spot. So i would try to trade Sheard.

And then the secondary we need a starting FS and #2 CB plus a nickle CB
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Dropkick_pride


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sparroww77 wrote:
I think are Dline will be actually better in a 3-4. But we definitely need 2 starting OLB and rotational players.

Rubin, Taylor, Winn as are 3 starters. Then mix in Hughes, Rucker and one of these 3 Stephens, Sanford, English

Jackson is the only LB i have confident in starting in the 3-4
Gocong JMJ or Fort would complete for the other ILB and backups. Sheard is the only pass rusher on the team and i don't think he would make a good 3-4 OLB and we don't have anyone else for the other OLB spot. So i would try to trade Sheard.

And then the secondary we need a starting FS and #2 CB plus a nickle CB



Ummm.... Your a bit off there. Stephens and English would NOT be playing 34DE !! And kitchen would be a backup NT.

One OLB will be Sheard... No way are they trading him. There a couple potential OLB backups like Adams, hall, English, and I think Stephens/Elmore - forget which is which right now.

Gocong played very well in the 34 and will start at one of the LB spots if his Achilles is good to go, which it should be.



FS and #2 CB are definitely needs, but nickel and dime should be fine.
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GeneralDissaray


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The big advantage you guys have in the 3-4 is you have beef and talent on your D-line, which means your 3 D lineman will suck up blocks, but they are talented enough to disrupt the run game. You will mostly be running the 5-2 look in non-passing downs. With your size on the D-line, it makes it very difficult to run against. The nice thing about the 3-4 is the ability to flip OLB's, and move them around to bring pressure from different areas. You are right that you have to at least have a good secondary. Before we got Claiborne and Carr, we played 10 yards off the line. Smart qb's just had the WR's turn around or do a quick in. If you can get two good pass rushing OLB's in the 3-4, it can be deadly, and make up for secondary play.
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Dropkick_pride


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GeneralDissaray wrote:
The big advantage you guys have in the 3-4 is you have beef and talent on your D-line, which means your 3 D lineman will suck up blocks, but they are talented enough to disrupt the run game. You will mostly be running the 5-2 look in non-passing downs. With your size on the D-line, it makes it very difficult to run against. The nice thing about the 3-4 is the ability to flip OLB's, and move them around to bring pressure from different areas. You are right that you have to at least have a good secondary. Before we got Claiborne and Carr, we played 10 yards off the line. Smart qb's just had the WR's turn around or do a quick in. If you can get two good pass rushing OLB's in the 3-4, it can be deadly, and make up for secondary play.


Good thoughts...

We need three people on defense... A true FS to cover the deep half, great #2 cb to pair with Haden, and a second OLB to rush opposite of Sheard. It appears the rest is in place....

Finding Three guys should be doable and should make the defense really good.
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Entropy


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dropkick_pride wrote:
GeneralDissaray wrote:
The big advantage you guys have in the 3-4 is you have beef and talent on your D-line, which means your 3 D lineman will suck up blocks, but they are talented enough to disrupt the run game. You will mostly be running the 5-2 look in non-passing downs. With your size on the D-line, it makes it very difficult to run against. The nice thing about the 3-4 is the ability to flip OLB's, and move them around to bring pressure from different areas. You are right that you have to at least have a good secondary. Before we got Claiborne and Carr, we played 10 yards off the line. Smart qb's just had the WR's turn around or do a quick in. If you can get two good pass rushing OLB's in the 3-4, it can be deadly, and make up for secondary play.


Good thoughts...

We need three people on defense... A true FS to cover the deep half, great #2 cb to pair with Haden, and a second OLB to rush opposite of Sheard. It appears the rest is in place....

Finding Three guys should be doable and should make the defense really good.


I agree on the first point, but I'm just not sure how good we can be. Horton sure seems like he can make it happen though. But, I am still pretty skeptical on the whole 3-4 change and what it will really look like.

I might feel better when I have an idea what players will be on the roster playing defense next year.
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Dropkick_pride


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i doubt many people would call me an optimist... but it looks like it will work on paper. Im just trying to hope for the best, but the other side of the coin is too bad to think about and makes me want to buy a different jersey....

but anyways...



Looking a bit closer at our ILB situation, specifically Robertson.

D'Qwell Jackson: 6'0 240
Chris Gocong: 6'2 263
James-Michael Johnson: 6'1 240
LJ Fort: 6' 230
Tank Carder: 6'2 235
Craig Robertson: 6'1 229

I had initially considered Robertson too small to play in the new alignment, but in comparison he isnt significantly smaller the other guys - except for Gocong who is huge.

In comparison to the Cardinals ILB...

Washington: 6'2 230
Lenon: 6'2 240
Walker: 6'0 244
Bradley: 6'4 258

and then with the steelers (2010).... while horton wasnt the dc or in charge of personnel this is where he cut his teeth so to speak...

James Farrior: 6'2 243
Lawrence Timmons: 6'1 234
Larry Foote: 6'1 239
Keyaron Fox: 6'3 235


Again, I had initially assumed Robertson that while he was fast, could hit, tackle being a converted safety to LB at a small school... he would get cut simply because he was too small... well, I was wrong.

Given his age, I see no reason why he cant or wont put on 10 pounds. I think it will be a very interesting camp battle at this spot for the Browns, especially with Acho, Moten, and possibly Maivia too!




ARI's Bradley has some interesting comparisons to Gocong... but thats a different post.
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