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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
twslhs20 wrote:
New contract. What's he worth?


Roughly the same thing he was worth before these playoffs. He certainly made himself some money, but 3 games isn't going to make Ozzie throw money at him.

Something similar to Eli's deal, maybe slightly more due to timing.

Eli got 7 years, $106M which averages $15.2M a year.

I could see Flacco getting 6 years, $96M ($16M/year) , though I'm sure his agent will push for the contract to say $100M+ so maybe a team option for a 7th year or some unlikely to be earned incentives to push it over the $100M mark.


This is confusing.

First you say he is worth the same as he was before, but then say he is worth Eli money? Before, he wasnt really worth that.

Then you say it wont make Ozzie throw money at him, yet you still have them making Flacco one of the higest paid players in the league?

Not trying to be difficult, but I dont get the logic.


Us Ravens fans all expected him to get around Eli money before the playoffs began (if given a long-term extension rather than franchised). That's where the "worth about the same as before" and "Eli money" connect.

And that's where the "Ozzie won't throw money at him" portion also connects to -- that prior to these playoffs, we all expected him to get roughly an Eli type deal. Joe has made himself a bit more money (Maybe from like $15.5M to $16M a year) but nothing in terms of going from a $12M to $16M type guy just due to 3 games.

Most outsiders likely wouldn't have expected Joe to command roughly Eli money, but the majority of us Ravens fans already had an idea in mind of what he'd be extended for if given one, and that was roughly Eli money.
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Mossburg


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
Mossburg wrote:
Flacco lobbed a duck against the Steelers that played a huge role in the Steelers coming back. He did put together a good drive and Boldin dropped a big catch late. Either way, the Ravens scored 3 pts in the 2nd half and Flacco's most significant play was a lobbed duck with great hope after which the Steelers tied the game. Anything else you want me to watch?



Yes, like more than just that one play. And more than just that 1 play in 1 game in the last 3 post-seasons. It's clear you have an agenda and would rather cover your eyes/ears and say "lalalala" rather than being objective and actually watching the game(s).


Laughing

Please point out what agenda I have, other than keep things in reality.


How about the fumble that gave the Steelers their 1st lead? How about the fact that the Ravens barely even moved the ball in the 2nd half and got their only points off good field position? The drive where Boldin dropped the tough but catchable TD started deep in Pitt territory, if I recall. In other words, the Ravens did almost nothing in the 2nd half on offense. 130 yards on 30 attempts, with a TD and 2 turnovers that (indirectly) led to 10 points.

You said 3 years. That was 3 years ago. If you said 2 years, I would have nodded in agreement.


Quote:


No, elevating his game doesn't mean that in the slightest. It simply means that he plays better and more consistent in the playoffs than he does in the regular season. Stop reading more into it than that.


I would agree about the flavor of the moment thing of the forum, but the sentiment that Flacco raises his play in the playoffs isn't just a "moment" thing. If people were claiming Flacco is all of the sudden a top 5 QB, then I'd agree. But the statement of "Flacco elevates his play in the playoffs" is an undisputed fact backed with 3 years of post season games as evidence.


He's definitely played well the last 2 years, but that's not really enough IMO, because he has so many games in the playoffs played, and almost half of them he's been a lot less than stellar.
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Colt45fool


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's Eli Manning minus the 2 SB rings.

I've always liked Flacco and though I never vehemently went to bat for him, I thought it was criminal that he got so much crap for his receivers dropping passes in the waning minutes of big games. Glad to see him getting his proper respect.
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BaltimoreTerp


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flacco sucked in the playoffs against PIT 2 years ago. He played scared and couldn't move the ball in the 2nd half, though his receivers dropping critical passes that would have wrapped up the game for us (Boldin) or keep us going on a potential last-minute, game-tying drive (Houshmandzadeh) didn't help him out either. But yeah, that was a bad game last year. I've never seen him as rattled as he looked that night.

Doesn't really matter too much in the grand scheme of things, and his overall playoff body of work is good. As a raw rookie making the transition from playing at FCS Delaware he didn't put up big numbers but he did lead a GW drive against the #1 seeded Titans, in his 2nd year he had that legendary 4/10 performance against New England that he gets a lot of crap for but he was playing so injured at that point that he wasn't even able to sit down on the flights to our games, he was great against KC and then bad against PIT 2 years ago, and has been absolute money over the past 2 years.
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Last edited by BaltimoreTerp on Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mossburg wrote:

How about the fumble that gave the Steelers their 1st lead? How about the fact that the Ravens barely even moved the ball in the 2nd half and got their only points off good field position? The drive where Boldin dropped the tough but catchable TD started deep in Pitt territory, if I recall. In other words, the Ravens did almost nothing in the 2nd half on offense. 130 yards on 30 attempts, with a TD and 2 turnovers that (indirectly) led to 10 points.

You said 3 years. That was 3 years ago. If you said 2 years, I would have nodded in agreement.


True or false: Flacco had the team in position to win the game and did his part at the end of the game in order to have his team win and was failed by his WRs.

Again, I'm not arguing he's been flawless. But you're here harping on one single game in which he STILL did his part with the game on the line, and ignoring the other 5 in the past 3 years. All to argue that somehow that one game disproves the notion that Flacco elevates his play in the playoffs.

If that's not an agenda, I don't know what is.

Quote:
He's definitely played well the last 2 years, but that's not really enough IMO, because he has so many games in the playoffs played, and almost half of them he's been a lot less than stellar.


Again, you're placing equal importance on the playoffs of his rookie and sophomore years as you are of the most recent and relevant seasons. Those same two seasons where his top targets were Derrick Mason and Mark Clayton. He got Boldin in 2010, and since then in the playoffs?

7 games: 128/220 (58.2%), 1725 yards (7.8 YPA, 246.4 YPG), 15 TD, 2 INT, rating of 102.2.

If that's not "elevating his game in the playoffs", I'd love to hear your definition of it.
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Mossburg


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
True or false: Flacco had the team in position to win the game and did his part at the end of the game in order to have his team win and was failed by his WRs.

False, Flacco didn't have his team in that position, he was put in that position by his team because the drive started deep in PITT territory. The only reason his team wasn't ahead more (aside from Ben being Ben and the defense nit getting needed stops) is Flacco playing poorly.

Quote:
Again, I'm not arguing he's been flawless. But you're here harping on one single game in which he STILL did his part with the game on the line, and ignoring the other 5 in the past 3 years. All to argue that somehow that one game disproves the notion that Flacco elevates his play in the playoffs.

If that's not an agenda, I don't know what is.


I am arguing a very specific issue. Like I said, you said 3 years, which is false. Ok he played well against an overmtached KC team, he gets credit. He then played poorly against a good Steelers team, that a lot more relevant, no?

I'm still waiting to hear what my agenda is. I'm a Flacco hater? I've defended Flacco plenty in the past when people were bashing.

Quote:
Again, you're placing equal importance on the playoffs of his rookie and sophomore years as you are of the most recent and relevant seasons. Those same two seasons where his top targets were Derrick Mason and Mark Clayton. He got Boldin in 2010, and since then in the playoffs?

7 games: 128/220 (58.2%), 1725 yards (7.8 YPA, 246.4 YPG), 15 TD, 2 INT, rating of 102.2.

If that's not "elevating his game in the playoffs", I'd love to hear your definition of it.


I'm evaluating his playoff career. Since his playoff career is pretty damn extensive, I weighing it as a whole.

Also, Mason was a lot more productive than Boldin despite Boldin being a better talent. Boldin doesn't fit well with Flacco because he needs consistent good intermediate throws (they don't have to be super accurate since he's so good at making plays on the ball). Flacco didn't take off until he got Torrey Smith, am I right? That's why his completion percentage is always low, he's a great bomber but doesn't have the consistent intermediate accuracy of the elites.

Like I said, I just want to see more.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mossburg wrote:
I'm evaluating his playoff career. Since his playoff career is pretty damn extensive, I weighing it as a whole.


Even if you are doing that, wouldnt you agree that his most recent years are much more relevant?

Flacco...at least the last 2 years, has been very good. He hasnt been as amazing as some have made him out to be, but he has definitely been a big key to their success. That should definitely be weighed more heavily compared to his early career postseason struggles.
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Mossburg


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Mossburg wrote:
I'm evaluating his playoff career. Since his playoff career is pretty damn extensive, I weighing it as a whole.


Even if you are doing that, wouldnt you agree that his most recent years are much more relevant?

Flacco...at least the last 2 years, has been very good. He hasnt been as amazing as some have made him out to be, but he has definitely been a big key to their success. That should definitely be weighed more heavily compared to his early career postseason struggles.


Sure, but I still want to see more. That's why I brought up Jake Delhomme, who had a really impressive 2 year run as well, and today nobody gives a crap (aside some Panthers fans) about him or that run.
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BaltimoreTerp


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Panthers have never even made the playoffs in consecutive years in franchise history, so I don't really see how this Delhomme comparison is relevant.
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superman(DH23) wrote:
Mossburg wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
Mossburg wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
Mossburg wrote:
91jmay wrote:
Mossburg wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
If he wins the SuperBowl, he's Eli Manning; good regular season QB who just elevates to the next level in the playoffs.


Lets not get carried away. He was outstanding today, and this could be the game that takes him to a different level, but lets not act like Flacco wasn't carried by his team early in his career. I mean the Ravens won a playoff game with Flacco going 4-10 for 34 yards and a pick.


Whilst Eli is a great QB he has only scored over 24 points once in a playoff game. Lets not pretend he has been sticking the Giants solely on his back


I should clarify I wasn't really focusing on the Eli comparison. Merely on this whole new, "Joe Flacco elevates his game to another level in the playoffs," deal that seems to have started. He had a great game today, he's had a few good ones in the past, and a few bad ones. Nothing really to show he elevates his game in the playoffs.


Yep. Except, you know, the last 3 years. But hey, let's instead focus on his first 2 seasons in the league because those are a lot more important than the last 3.


3 years ago? He was awful down the stretch against Pitt in the loss.

He's been very good the last 2 seasons though, and was GREAT today.

Fun fact: Jake Delhomme for a long while had like the best or 2nd QB rating in NFL history. People loved to bring that up and called him a great playoff QB. Nobody will remember this guy. The point? Flacco still has a lot of work to do.
No he didn't. Steve Young did, until Kurt Warner knocked him off, then Aaron Rodgers knocked him off, at no time has it been Jake Delhomme.


I'm 100% sure that prior to the Seattle game in the NFCCG that Delhomme had the best or the 2nd best playoff QB rating at that time. It was well over 100.
I'm 100% sure that Steve Young had it until 2001, for minimum # of attempts, and then Warner had it until Aaron Rodgers passed him in 2010 w/ minimum # of atts. Maybe there was some freak period in there where Delhomme passed Young, but he never had the best rating.


Yea, minimum attempts cutoff is important. Otherwise Ladainian Tomlinson would probably be the career passer rating leader.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TomlLa00.htm

(Kinda funny that it doesn't get a perfect 158.3 rating)
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Mossburg


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaltimoreTerp wrote:
The Panthers have never even made the playoffs in consecutive years in franchise history, so I don't really see how this Delhomme comparison is relevant.


As I said, it's not meant to be a comparison. It's more like, "Hey look, here's another guy who had a really good postseason stretch (for 2 years just like Flacco), but is now completely irrelevant." Yea the Panthers missed the playoffs after the SB, I think that's the year when Kris Jenkins' injury problems started. I don't think that derails my point though.

I have no problem giving credit where credit is due. Flacco deserves plenty of credit especially for the plays he made this year, and the mistakes that he didn't make. I just want to see more before I say Joe Flacco elevates his game to another level in the playoffs. Like if the Ravens start to fall apart after Ray retires and Flacco has to shoulder a huge load and doesn't play well, will people still remember him as the guy who elevated his game in the playoffs for 2 season? Is it not fair to say that I want to see more before I join this bandwagon?
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Last edited by Mossburg on Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NYGFan101


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is this that he is such a clutch playoff performer?

He's played well in one postseason being this year and did average against NE last season. Now he's suddenly Montana? Laughing

The guy won a playoff game going 4-10 36 yds and an INT for crying out loud a few years back. He's had top 3 defenses every year before this. Yes, he's making that step, but it's too early for legacy talk.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mossburg wrote:
I'm evaluating his playoff career. Since his playoff career is pretty damn extensive, I weighing it as a whole.
You're really going to hold his first year in the league against him...I mean, speaking of grasping for straws...sheesh.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mossburg wrote:
False, Flacco didn't have his team in that position, he was put in that position by his team because the drive started deep in PITT territory. The only reason his team wasn't ahead more (aside from Ben being Ben and the defense nit getting needed stops) is Flacco playing poorly.


We'll agree to disagree then.

Quote:
I am arguing a very specific issue. Like I said, you said 3 years, which is false. Ok he played well against an overmtached KC team, he gets credit. He then played poorly against a good Steelers team, that a lot more relevant, no?


I said he's elevated his play in the playoffs over the course of the last 3 years which spans 7 games. You're sticking to 1/7 games in which he didn't play well. You're not arguing any specific issue, you're focusing on one thing as if that disproves me. The issue at hand is whether or not Flacco elevates his game in the playoffs, and the past 3 years as a whole shows he does. You picking out 1 out of 7 games to say otherwise is a terrible argument.

Quote:
I'm still waiting to hear what my agenda is. I'm a Flacco hater? I've defended Flacco plenty in the past when people were bashing.


I don't know what the agenda is -- but it's certainly something based on your argument, or really lackthereof.

Quote:
I'm evaluating his playoff career. Since his playoff career is pretty damn extensive, I weighing it as a whole.


Oh good, then we can also argue that Peyton Manning is terrible in the playoffs for his career, right? Along with John Elway. I'm sure you would be inclined to agree, right? I mean, after all, in 22 post-season games in his career, Elway posted a rating of 75 or lower in 9 of them, and broke the 100 rating in only 5/22 (Flacco is at 4/12 in that area, and he isn't that great in the playoffs apparently).

Quote:
Also, Mason was a lot more productive than Boldin despite Boldin being a better talent. Boldin doesn't fit well with Flacco because he needs consistent good intermediate throws (they don't have to be super accurate since he's so good at making plays on the ball). Flacco didn't take off until he got Torrey Smith, am I right? That's why his completion percentage is always low, he's a great bomber but doesn't have the consistent intermediate accuracy of the elites.


Mason really wasn't more productive. The only area he truly was was in route running because he was savvy. Boldin is and has always been the better player.

Boldin absolutely does fit well with Flacco -- he didn't fit well with Cam. Flacco is just fine on intermediate throws. And Flacco didn't "take off" with Torrey -- he simply became more dangerous because of the deep threat. In fact, Joe's best season was the year before Torrey came when it was Boldin/Mason/Housh. Flacco doesn't have the consistency of the elites period, it's not just in one area. His deep ball isn't consistent, his intermediate ball isn't consistent, etc. But he really doesn't struggle at any one area of the field, he's just inconsistent with them all.

Quote:
Like I said, I just want to see more.


And that's a perfectly logical stance to take -- but it doesn't disprove that Flacco has shown that over the past 3 seasons, he's elevated his play in the playoffs. It's a pure fact backed with solid evidence.

Edit: Could that change down the road? Absolutely. But as it stands now, there is no disproving it. If you want to take the stance of "He really has elevated his game in the playoffs the past 3 seasons, but I'll hold off on saying he'll consistently do it for his career until he shows me more", then more power to you. But, it's an invalid argument to say that he's not currently doing so and has over the past 3 seasons as a whole.
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Colt45fool


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYGFan101 wrote:
What is this that he is such a clutch playoff performer?

He's played well in one postseason being this year and did average against NE last season. Now he's suddenly Montana? Laughing

The guy won a playoff game going 4-10 36 yds and an INT for crying out loud a few years back. He's had top 3 defenses every year before this. Yes, he's making that step, but it's too early for legacy talk.
Flacco always puts his team in a position to win. Last year if the Lee Evans drop goes the other way, the Ravens are in the SB. At the very least, the Billy Cundiff kick puts it in OT to give the Ravens-Pats another quarter of play. Even the Pittsburgh game the year before, he had the Housh drop. Sure, he could've played better in the previous quarters, but in the final minutes he was money.

Can the guy get any respect? He's not all-world or anything, but he's a good QB. I'd kill to have him on the Jets.
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