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1King
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 Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| FootballPhreak wrote: | | diehardlionfan wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | Well, I certainly doubt he does much as a RB, since he said "I don't have the build for RB and don't think I will hold up at the next level as a RB" |
Exactly when did he say that? |
Apparently yesterday in an interview at the Senior Bowl. |
So you want us to believe something, without context, and without a source, that you aren't even sure on when/where he said it and that you don't even trust?
Makes sense.
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Sllim Pickens
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| 1King wrote: | | Sllim Pickens wrote: | So we can disregard all the UM fans hate on Will Gholston right, cause you guys are rivals and rivals can't make observations and voice concerns about a rivals player without being biased? Sorry I don't like your team, doesn't mean I will blindly buy what you are selling. And sorry that every time someone who likes the other team makes a comment you have to resort to that.
Denard came out of games more often than any QB I watched play. The fact he was never "hurt" is the basis of my soft claim, if your not hurt than stay on the field. I don't care if he doesn't have ligament or other damage, he doesn't have the toughness to stay on the field.
And it's funny how now a QB gets hit harder than a RB or KR. QB is the most protected position, the only hard hits are the 7-10 blindside hits they see a year. Even when he is running he is more protected as a QB.
As I have said, he can be a good player, his inability to remain in games when not "hurt" is a concern, and that's it. I'm not saying take him off the board, or drop him 5 rounds, just that it's a concern. Sorry to bad mouth your hero, but I'm not the only one with those concerns. |
I can only speak for myself, but no. I provided reasoning and backed up that reasoning wrt Gholston. You may not see the same thing/agree with it, but I provided logical reasoning and provided facts to support my opinion - you did not. THAT is the difference and THAT is the reason why people have called into question whether or not your bias is impacting you on this particular subject.
And again you are overstating this hurt thing. Coming out of games because there is an issue with something with his throwing arm when he is the QB does not speak to any concern when he will not be playing the position in the NFL. If you are a QB and your throwing hand/wrist/fingers get banged up, you have to come out and get it checked out or you are hurting the team. Funny you and others making this argument with only Denard when pretty much every player has come out during their careers to check out an issue to make sure there isn't any damage and since you brought him up, including Gholston - yet you dont bring the issue up with him.
Show me where in this thread someone said that a QB gets hit harder than a RB. I'll wait. People have said he wont get the type of hits at WR as he did as a QB (i.e. DB vs. DL/LB), but that was it.
Bold = Yet another reason why people call into question whether or not you are allowing your bias to influence your opinion on this topic. If I made comments like "Yeah you love Gholston as a prospect because he is your MSU hero" I would expect and deserve the questions regarding whether I am allowing any bias into the equation. |
It's been posted that he came out of over a third of his games. You claim it was him hitting someone's helmets with his hands, baseless claim when in fact the majority were due to him getting hit.
And read the thread, Detfan has constantly said he won't take the beating now that he won't be playing QB, and Calvin doesn't take nearly the beating Denard does as a QB.
I don't know or remember all your facts on Gholston, but if you don't see his potential and put any basis into his 2011 season than you are simply biased. He disappears in games because he is doubled and tripled, but I'm sure you disagree with that.
It's absolutely ridiculous how hung up Michigan fans are. Multiple times I have said its not something I would crucify Denard for and that he could be a good player, just that it's a concern and you guys hawk to the scene and protect your boy who isn't allowed to have weakness and throw around this homer and biased comments. It's pathetic that you guys point the finger without looking at yourself. Your opinions on all Michigan topics are biased. Denard has plenty of concerns, and being hit like a real football player instead of a QB is one of them since he came out of a ton of games as a protected QB.
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1King
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Sllim Pickens wrote: | | 1King wrote: | | Sllim Pickens wrote: | So we can disregard all the UM fans hate on Will Gholston right, cause you guys are rivals and rivals can't make observations and voice concerns about a rivals player without being biased? Sorry I don't like your team, doesn't mean I will blindly buy what you are selling. And sorry that every time someone who likes the other team makes a comment you have to resort to that.
Denard came out of games more often than any QB I watched play. The fact he was never "hurt" is the basis of my soft claim, if your not hurt than stay on the field. I don't care if he doesn't have ligament or other damage, he doesn't have the toughness to stay on the field.
And it's funny how now a QB gets hit harder than a RB or KR. QB is the most protected position, the only hard hits are the 7-10 blindside hits they see a year. Even when he is running he is more protected as a QB.
As I have said, he can be a good player, his inability to remain in games when not "hurt" is a concern, and that's it. I'm not saying take him off the board, or drop him 5 rounds, just that it's a concern. Sorry to bad mouth your hero, but I'm not the only one with those concerns. |
I can only speak for myself, but no. I provided reasoning and backed up that reasoning wrt Gholston. You may not see the same thing/agree with it, but I provided logical reasoning and provided facts to support my opinion - you did not. THAT is the difference and THAT is the reason why people have called into question whether or not your bias is impacting you on this particular subject.
And again you are overstating this hurt thing. Coming out of games because there is an issue with something with his throwing arm when he is the QB does not speak to any concern when he will not be playing the position in the NFL. If you are a QB and your throwing hand/wrist/fingers get banged up, you have to come out and get it checked out or you are hurting the team. Funny you and others making this argument with only Denard when pretty much every player has come out during their careers to check out an issue to make sure there isn't any damage and since you brought him up, including Gholston - yet you dont bring the issue up with him.
Show me where in this thread someone said that a QB gets hit harder than a RB. I'll wait. People have said he wont get the type of hits at WR as he did as a QB (i.e. DB vs. DL/LB), but that was it.
Bold = Yet another reason why people call into question whether or not you are allowing your bias to influence your opinion on this topic. If I made comments like "Yeah you love Gholston as a prospect because he is your MSU hero" I would expect and deserve the questions regarding whether I am allowing any bias into the equation. |
It's been posted that he came out of over a third of his games. You claim it was him hitting someone's helmets with his hands, baseless claim when in fact the majority were due to him getting hit.
And read the thread, Detfan has constantly said he won't take the beating now that he won't be playing QB, and Calvin doesn't take nearly the beating Denard does as a QB.
I don't know or remember all your facts on Gholston, but if you don't see his potential and put any basis into his 2011 season than you are simply biased. He disappears in games because he is doubled and tripled, but I'm sure you disagree with that.
It's absolutely ridiculous how hung up Michigan fans are. Multiple times I have said its not something I would crucify Denard for and that he could be a good player, just that it's a concern and you guys hawk to the scene and protect your boy who isn't allowed to have weakness and throw around this homer and biased comments. It's pathetic that you guys point the finger without looking at yourself. Your opinions on all Michigan topics are biased. Denard has plenty of concerns, and being hit like a real football player instead of a QB is one of them since he came out of a ton of games as a protected QB. |
I didn't claim all of the times he came out were due to that - I said it was overstated because SOME of the time it was due to that - which is accurate. I also said that it doesn't matter because he wont be playing QB in the NFL - also accurate.
Calvin at WR doesn't take the pounding that Denard has. Why? #1 Denard had way more touches and #2 the majority of Calvin's hits have been from Defensive Backs whereas most of Denard's hits have come from DL and LB. Obviously there is a difference in competition level from college to the NFL, but most NFL DB's are smaller than B1G LB's and few are the same size or bigger. All B1G DL are bigger than NFL DB's.
I never said Gholston didn't have potential - just that his hype/potential has lived up to his on-field production and that he is overrated and doesn't fit the wide-9 well. Does he get double/triple teamed some? Yes. How much? Not sure, haven't seen every game. He was shut down/non-factor quite a bit and I know not all of those times were due to him being double/triple teamed. And if he is as good as some suggest he should be able to beat double teams every now and then.
The problem is that you make posts that say "he could be a good player" and then make another post saying things that contradict that sentiment by claiming he is soft, throwing out clearly biased stuff like "he is your hero" etc. You even did that in the post I quoted. None of the "biased" Michigan fans are saying he can be a #1 NFL running back or take 25+ carries a game in the NFL or be an elite RB or WR. The "biased" Michigan fans have stated the durability issues are overstated and in certain instances non-factors(and Michigan fans aren't the only ones who have said that).
Your concerns aren't valid if he is playing WR, and only have some validity if he is playing RB (how much would be based on how he is used and how many touches he gets). Your opinion on all Michigan topics are also biased. Regardless of how biased I may be, I have backed my stances up with facts that either support my opinion or contradict/disprove the opposing opinion.
I guess routinely being hit by Big Ten DL and LB's who are future NFL players isn't being hit like a real football player. I guess all Big Ten guys are projects because apparently they dont play real football. Good to know.
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detfan782004
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Sllim Pickens wrote: | | 1King wrote: | | Sllim Pickens wrote: | So we can disregard all the UM fans hate on Will Gholston right, cause you guys are rivals and rivals can't make observations and voice concerns about a rivals player without being biased? Sorry I don't like your team, doesn't mean I will blindly buy what you are selling. And sorry that every time someone who likes the other team makes a comment you have to resort to that.
Denard came out of games more often than any QB I watched play. The fact he was never "hurt" is the basis of my soft claim, if your not hurt than stay on the field. I don't care if he doesn't have ligament or other damage, he doesn't have the toughness to stay on the field.
And it's funny how now a QB gets hit harder than a RB or KR. QB is the most protected position, the only hard hits are the 7-10 blindside hits they see a year. Even when he is running he is more protected as a QB.
As I have said, he can be a good player, his inability to remain in games when not "hurt" is a concern, and that's it. I'm not saying take him off the board, or drop him 5 rounds, just that it's a concern. Sorry to bad mouth your hero, but I'm not the only one with those concerns. |
I can only speak for myself, but no. I provided reasoning and backed up that reasoning wrt Gholston. You may not see the same thing/agree with it, but I provided logical reasoning and provided facts to support my opinion - you did not. THAT is the difference and THAT is the reason why people have called into question whether or not your bias is impacting you on this particular subject.
And again you are overstating this hurt thing. Coming out of games because there is an issue with something with his throwing arm when he is the QB does not speak to any concern when he will not be playing the position in the NFL. If you are a QB and your throwing hand/wrist/fingers get banged up, you have to come out and get it checked out or you are hurting the team. Funny you and others making this argument with only Denard when pretty much every player has come out during their careers to check out an issue to make sure there isn't any damage and since you brought him up, including Gholston - yet you dont bring the issue up with him.
Show me where in this thread someone said that a QB gets hit harder than a RB. I'll wait. People have said he wont get the type of hits at WR as he did as a QB (i.e. DB vs. DL/LB), but that was it.
Bold = Yet another reason why people call into question whether or not you are allowing your bias to influence your opinion on this topic. If I made comments like "Yeah you love Gholston as a prospect because he is your MSU hero" I would expect and deserve the questions regarding whether I am allowing any bias into the equation. |
It's been posted that he came out of over a third of his games. You claim it was him hitting someone's helmets with his hands, baseless claim when in fact the majority were due to him getting hit.
And read the thread, Detfan has constantly said he won't take the beating now that he won't be playing QB, and Calvin doesn't take nearly the beating Denard does as a QB.
I don't know or remember all your facts on Gholston, but if you don't see his potential and put any basis into his 2011 season than you are simply biased. He disappears in games because he is doubled and tripled, but I'm sure you disagree with that.
It's absolutely ridiculous how hung up Michigan fans are. Multiple times I have said its not something I would crucify Denard for and that he could be a good player, just that it's a concern and you guys hawk to the scene and protect your boy who isn't allowed to have weakness and throw around this homer and biased comments. It's pathetic that you guys point the finger without looking at yourself. Your opinions on all Michigan topics are biased. Denard has plenty of concerns, and being hit like a real football player instead of a QB is one of them since he came out of a ton of games as a protected QB. |
If he were sitting in pocket protected sure. Once he is outside that pocket he is a RB and taking hits like a RB. He does not slide etc.
Using the he is protected QB thing you have several times show your lack of willingness to accept Denard because he is Blue.
He is not protected
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Sllim Pickens
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Because QBs are less protected outside of the pocket? They are the most protected even as a running QB. You can't hit them near the sidelines, if you lay them out its a 15 yard penalty, you should know with your disproven of Suh's hit on Cutler.
He will still get his as a WR, especially as a 2 or slot guy coming across the middle. He will get blown up. So yes it is still a concern. He hasn't shown a great ability to catch especially while getting hit.
And yes, you can be a good player and be soft. He has potential to break any play, I'm just nervous he will get hit and will miss out on the opportunities. He is quick, shifty, and reads his blocks well, but he has to improve a lot of things including his ability to take a hit and not come off the field for the rest of the series.
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detfan782004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Sllim Pickens wrote: | Because QBs are less protected outside of the pocket? They are the most protected even as a running QB. You can't hit them near the sidelines, if you lay them out its a 15 yard penalty, you should know with your disproven of Suh's hit on Cutler.
He will still get his as a WR, especially as a 2 or slot guy coming across the middle. He will get blown up. So yes it is still a concern. He hasn't shown a great ability to catch especially while getting hit.
And yes, you can be a good player and be soft. He has potential to break any play, I'm just nervous he will get hit and will miss out on the opportunities. He is quick, shifty, and reads his blocks well, but he has to improve a lot of things including his ability to take a hit and not come off the field for the rest of the series. |
Using NFL example where QBs are way more protected just shows your hate. Keep digging the hole
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Sllim Pickens
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| detfan782004 wrote: | | Sllim Pickens wrote: | Because QBs are less protected outside of the pocket? They are the most protected even as a running QB. You can't hit them near the sidelines, if you lay them out its a 15 yard penalty, you should know with your disproven of Suh's hit on Cutler.
He will still get his as a WR, especially as a 2 or slot guy coming across the middle. He will get blown up. So yes it is still a concern. He hasn't shown a great ability to catch especially while getting hit.
And yes, you can be a good player and be soft. He has potential to break any play, I'm just nervous he will get hit and will miss out on the opportunities. He is quick, shifty, and reads his blocks well, but he has to improve a lot of things including his ability to take a hit and not come off the field for the rest of the series. |
Using NFL example where QBs are way more protected just shows your hate. Keep digging the hole |
They play by the same rules in college. Keep your UM goggles on.
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detfan782004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Sllim Pickens wrote: | | detfan782004 wrote: | | Sllim Pickens wrote: | Because QBs are less protected outside of the pocket? They are the most protected even as a running QB. You can't hit them near the sidelines, if you lay them out its a 15 yard penalty, you should know with your disproven of Suh's hit on Cutler.
He will still get his as a WR, especially as a 2 or slot guy coming across the middle. He will get blown up. So yes it is still a concern. He hasn't shown a great ability to catch especially while getting hit.
And yes, you can be a good player and be soft. He has potential to break any play, I'm just nervous he will get hit and will miss out on the opportunities. He is quick, shifty, and reads his blocks well, but he has to improve a lot of things including his ability to take a hit and not come off the field for the rest of the series. |
Using NFL example where QBs are way more protected just shows your hate. Keep digging the hole |
They play by the same rules in college. Keep your UM goggles on. |
The NFL and refs protect QBS wayyyyyy more compared to NCAA. Its not even close
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1King
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Sllim Pickens wrote: | Because QBs are less protected outside of the pocket? They are the most protected even as a running QB. You can't hit them near the sidelines, if you lay them out its a 15 yard penalty, you should know with your disproven of Suh's hit on Cutler.
He will still get his as a WR, especially as a 2 or slot guy coming across the middle. He will get blown up. So yes it is still a concern. He hasn't shown a great ability to catch especially while getting hit.
And yes, you can be a good player and be soft. He has potential to break any play, I'm just nervous he will get hit and will miss out on the opportunities. He is quick, shifty, and reads his blocks well, but he has to improve a lot of things including his ability to take a hit and not come off the field for the rest of the series. |
On QB - yeah in the NFL, much less so in college.
On hit as WR, yeah, though not as frequently/as big of hits consistently.
Bold = Yup, which is why he is raw and a projected mid round pick - no one is/should be disputing that.
| Quote: | | They play by the same rules in college. |
No they dont - there are a number of different rules from pro/college and while college protects QB in the pocket similarly as the NFL, they dont nearly as much outside the pocket and especially with dual-threat QB's running up the gut.
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FootballPhreak
Joined: 09 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| 1King wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | diehardlionfan wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | Well, I certainly doubt he does much as a RB, since he said "I don't have the build for RB and don't think I will hold up at the next level as a RB" |
Exactly when did he say that? |
Apparently yesterday in an interview at the Senior Bowl. |
So you want us to believe something, without context, and without a source, that you aren't even sure on when/where he said it and that you don't even trust?
Makes sense. |
I honestly don't care if you brlirve it or not. But I am pretty certain the fact has quite an impact on the conversation you thought you were having.
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1King
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| FootballPhreak wrote: | | 1King wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | diehardlionfan wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | Well, I certainly doubt he does much as a RB, since he said "I don't have the build for RB and don't think I will hold up at the next level as a RB" |
Exactly when did he say that? |
Apparently yesterday in an interview at the Senior Bowl. |
So you want us to believe something, without context, and without a source, that you aren't even sure on when/where he said it and that you don't even trust?
Makes sense. |
I honestly don't care if you brlirve it or not. But I am pretty certain the fact has quite an impact on the conversation you thought you were having. |
Not really. An alleged quote from an unknown source doesn't change anything - especially without context. Even if everything checks out, the worst case scenario for me is that Denard doesn't think he could do something (though context is important here. Ive done accomplished things I didnt think I could do. Even if he were to fail, it doesnt change the fact that people used faulty logic and/or inaccurate statements in their argument - sure the end game they might be right, but not based on the reasoning they used. If I ever get proven wrong - it wouldn't be the first or last time, just like anyone else who has followed this type of stuff for long enough, if I am proven wrong I put forth actual facts and logic to support my opinion (not to say others haven't done some of the same).
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detfan782004
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| 1King wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | 1King wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | diehardlionfan wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | Well, I certainly doubt he does much as a RB, since he said "I don't have the build for RB and don't think I will hold up at the next level as a RB" |
Exactly when did he say that? |
Apparently yesterday in an interview at the Senior Bowl. |
So you want us to believe something, without context, and without a source, that you aren't even sure on when/where he said it and that you don't even trust?
Makes sense. |
I honestly don't care if you brlirve it or not. But I am pretty certain the fact has quite an impact on the conversation you thought you were having. |
Not really. An alleged quote from an unknown source doesn't change anything - especially without context. Even if everything checks out, the worst case scenario for me is that Denard doesn't think he could do something (though context is important here. Ive done accomplished things I didnt think I could do. Even if he were to fail, it doesnt change the fact that people used faulty logic and/or inaccurate statements in their argument - sure the end game they might be right, but not based on the reasoning they used. If I ever get proven wrong - it wouldn't be the first or last time, just like anyone else who has followed this type of stuff for long enough, if I am proven wrong I put forth actual facts and logic to support my opinion (not to say others haven't done some of the same). |
Still no internet whispers of it. Considering how large NFL draft is and how much info out there it would be on internet
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FootballPhreak
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| detfan782004 wrote: | | 1King wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | 1King wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | diehardlionfan wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | Well, I certainly doubt he does much as a RB, since he said "I don't have the build for RB and don't think I will hold up at the next level as a RB" |
Exactly when did he say that? |
Apparently yesterday in an interview at the Senior Bowl. |
So you want us to believe something, without context, and without a source, that you aren't even sure on when/where he said it and that you don't even trust?
Makes sense. |
I honestly don't care if you brlirve it or not. But I am pretty certain the fact has quite an impact on the conversation you thought you were having. |
Not really. An alleged quote from an unknown source doesn't change anything - especially without context. Even if everything checks out, the worst case scenario for me is that Denard doesn't think he could do something (though context is important here. Ive done accomplished things I didnt think I could do. Even if he were to fail, it doesnt change the fact that people used faulty logic and/or inaccurate statements in their argument - sure the end game they might be right, but not based on the reasoning they used. If I ever get proven wrong - it wouldn't be the first or last time, just like anyone else who has followed this type of stuff for long enough, if I am proven wrong I put forth actual facts and logic to support my opinion (not to say others haven't done some of the same). |
Still no internet whispers of it. Considering how large NFL draft is and how much info out there it would be on internet |
Why?
EDIT:
I suggest a google search. While I never found anything with the direct quote, a simple google search brought up 1000s of articles stating that NFL scouts see Denard as a WR and that he does not have the build for a RB in the NFL. And that noone sees him in that role.
As per usual, if it doesn't align with the diarhea you are spouting at the time, you will refuse to believe it regardless of sources. GL as per usual.
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iLovetheLions
Joined: 13 Jan 2007
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Location: Michigan State
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| 1King wrote: |
Your concerns aren't valid if he is playing WR, and only have some validity if he is playing RB |
| iLovetheLions wrote: |
i dont think he can hold up as a RB
WR/KR is his only shot IMO |
This was my initial post that started this whole thing, i was labeled a biased hater, glad to know we agree...
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| Sllim Pickens wrote: | | There should be a thread for UM fans and GB fans to sit and talk about how amazing their teams are with each other. |
Possibly the best post ever |
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detfan782004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| FootballPhreak wrote: | | detfan782004 wrote: | | 1King wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | 1King wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | diehardlionfan wrote: | | FootballPhreak wrote: | | Well, I certainly doubt he does much as a RB, since he said "I don't have the build for RB and don't think I will hold up at the next level as a RB" |
Exactly when did he say that? |
Apparently yesterday in an interview at the Senior Bowl. |
So you want us to believe something, without context, and without a source, that you aren't even sure on when/where he said it and that you don't even trust?
Makes sense. |
I honestly don't care if you brlirve it or not. But I am pretty certain the fact has quite an impact on the conversation you thought you were having. |
Not really. An alleged quote from an unknown source doesn't change anything - especially without context. Even if everything checks out, the worst case scenario for me is that Denard doesn't think he could do something (though context is important here. Ive done accomplished things I didnt think I could do. Even if he were to fail, it doesnt change the fact that people used faulty logic and/or inaccurate statements in their argument - sure the end game they might be right, but not based on the reasoning they used. If I ever get proven wrong - it wouldn't be the first or last time, just like anyone else who has followed this type of stuff for long enough, if I am proven wrong I put forth actual facts and logic to support my opinion (not to say others haven't done some of the same). |
Still no internet whispers of it. Considering how large NFL draft is and how much info out there it would be on internet |
Why?
EDIT:
I suggest a google search. While I never found anything with the direct quote, a simple google search brought up 1000s of articles stating that NFL scouts see Denard as a WR and that he does not have the build for a RB in the NFL. And that noone sees him in that role.
As per usual, if it doesn't align with the diarhea you are spouting at the time, you will refuse to believe it regardless of sources. GL as per usual. |
NOTHING AND I REPEAT NOTHING of Denard calling himself out. Way to try and twist it and use scouts.
Show me where Denard said it and then you can thump your chest. Until then I simply do not believe you
My argument was never that he could play RB or scouts thought he could.
I am saying you are making crap up that he said.
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