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Junior Seau's family is suing the NFL
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mse326


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd imagine there is an even bigger hurdle to winning this than whether the NFL knew.

They have to prove that the CTE contributed to his committing suicide. I don't think the general thing that it can lead to it would be enough.
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eagles101


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superman(DH23) wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Blink wrote:
I'm not saying the NFL is 100% guilt free in any of this but:

These players didn't just start playing football the day they joined the NFL. From pop warner to college you see people getting seriously injured. From past experience alone you know there's a reasonable expectation this job can negatively effect your health.

Why do you think they get paid millions of dollars? Why do you think they have a medical staff? People get hurt and you're getting paid millions to sacrifice your body.

I think it's rather naive to think that players didn't know there was a pretty hefty risk for the paycheck.
It's not that they didn't know there was any risks, it's that allegedly the NFL knew about other risks that Pop Warner, high school teams, etc. and the players didn't know about, and apparently lied to the players about these risks.

It's kinda like if I ask you to climb a tall tree and save my cat. You know that you can fall out of the tree or get little bites from a cat. If, however, when you get up there, it turns out my "cat" is actually a Jaguar that mauls you and makes you fall down, I'm at fault for not telling you that.


I find it seriously hard to believe that only the NFL knew this and this wasnt shared medical knowledge in the medical community.

Sounds like a conspiracy theory.

And as I said before, even if these facts were known....do you really think Seau wouldve quit playing? These players are paid big dollars and know the risks. Even if they werent keen to every last detail, its not hard to figure out that a game of this nature could results in a severe brain injury. And even if they knew all the details I guarantee they would still be playing.

The details are known now. Do you see any players quitting because of it? No, and Seau wouldnt have either.

There is no standing ground to sue, and Seau's family just comes across as greedy.
FACT: the NFL funded and conducted 3 different studies in the 90s on the longterm effects of subconcusive events and CTE. Those results, to this day, have never been released to the public.


and if they are able to force the NFL to release the that info could make or break the case. if it says there is no connection then they are off the hook.....they see a connection between head injuries and mental illness then the nfl might as well close up its doors.
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I don't understand most of that, but I can tell it's probably inaccurate.
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mse326 wrote:
I'd imagine there is an even bigger hurdle to winning this than whether the NFL knew.

They have to prove that the CTE contributed to his committing suicide. I don't think the general thing that it can lead to it would be enough.


That's what I've been hitting on here.

This is different than standard Company A was negligent. Their negligence caused Defect B that led to the death of Customer/Employee C.

In this case, the argument is being made that the negligence of Company A led Customer/Employee C to act in Way D, which is a much more difficult fact pattern to establish.

Even in cases of sexual assault or bullying, conditions under which there is more obvious malicious intent by the assaulter and much more documentation of the resulting psychological effects on the victim, it is very unlikely/rare for resulting suicide to be pinned on the accused.
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Kellerman


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sp6488 wrote:
mse326 wrote:
I'd imagine there is an even bigger hurdle to winning this than whether the NFL knew.

They have to prove that the CTE contributed to his committing suicide. I don't think the general thing that it can lead to it would be enough.


That's what I've been hitting on here.

This is different than standard Company A was negligent. Their negligence caused Defect B that led to the death of Customer/Employee C.

In this case, the argument is being made that the negligence of Company A led Customer/Employee C to act in Way D, which is a much more difficult fact pattern to establish.

Even in cases of sexual assault or bullying, conditions under which there is more obvious malicious intent by the assaulter and much more documentation of the resulting psychological effects on the victim, it is very unlikely/rare for resulting suicide to be pinned on the accused.


It likely depends on how strong CTE can be linked with suicide and/or mental health issues. A quick google search turn up the ''balance of probability'' as a standard of proof in civil cases. If a strong link between CTE and suicide/mental illness can be demonstrated, that would satisfy the ''balance of probability'' when it comes to CTE causing or influencing Seau's suicide.

PS: Perhaps someone with a US law degree could confirm/correct my application of US law?
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mse326


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kellerman wrote:
sp6488 wrote:
mse326 wrote:
I'd imagine there is an even bigger hurdle to winning this than whether the NFL knew.

They have to prove that the CTE contributed to his committing suicide. I don't think the general thing that it can lead to it would be enough.


That's what I've been hitting on here.

This is different than standard Company A was negligent. Their negligence caused Defect B that led to the death of Customer/Employee C.

In this case, the argument is being made that the negligence of Company A led Customer/Employee C to act in Way D, which is a much more difficult fact pattern to establish.

Even in cases of sexual assault or bullying, conditions under which there is more obvious malicious intent by the assaulter and much more documentation of the resulting psychological effects on the victim, it is very unlikely/rare for resulting suicide to be pinned on the accused.


It likely depends on how strong CTE can be linked with suicide and/or mental health issues. A quick google search turn up the ''balance of probability'' as a standard of proof in civil cases. If a strong link between CTE and suicide/mental illness can be demonstrated, that would satisfy the ''balance of probability'' when it comes to CTE causing or influencing Seau's suicide.

PS: Perhaps someone with a US law degree could confirm/correct my application of US law?


Balance of Probability is just another way of saying preponderance of the evidence (the latter is the more common term). That is the general burden that says the plaintiff has to prove it is more likely than not.

So, yes, if there is an incredibly strong link between CTE and suicide then it would be enough, but I haven't seen anything that definitive.
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Kellerman


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mse326 wrote:
Kellerman wrote:
sp6488 wrote:
mse326 wrote:
I'd imagine there is an even bigger hurdle to winning this than whether the NFL knew.

They have to prove that the CTE contributed to his committing suicide. I don't think the general thing that it can lead to it would be enough.


That's what I've been hitting on here.

This is different than standard Company A was negligent. Their negligence caused Defect B that led to the death of Customer/Employee C.

In this case, the argument is being made that the negligence of Company A led Customer/Employee C to act in Way D, which is a much more difficult fact pattern to establish.

Even in cases of sexual assault or bullying, conditions under which there is more obvious malicious intent by the assaulter and much more documentation of the resulting psychological effects on the victim, it is very unlikely/rare for resulting suicide to be pinned on the accused.


It likely depends on how strong CTE can be linked with suicide and/or mental health issues. A quick google search turn up the ''balance of probability'' as a standard of proof in civil cases. If a strong link between CTE and suicide/mental illness can be demonstrated, that would satisfy the ''balance of probability'' when it comes to CTE causing or influencing Seau's suicide.

PS: Perhaps someone with a US law degree could confirm/correct my application of US law?


Balance of Probability is just another way of saying preponderance of the evidence (the latter is the more common term). That is the general burden that says the plaintiff has to prove it is more likely than not.

So, yes, if there is an incredibly strong link between CTE and suicide then it would be enough, but I haven't seen anything that definitive.


I haven't seen any proof either, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did turn up in future research. Something about the combination of brain damage, symptoms similar to dementia, Parkinson's and psychosis, combined with several suicides and several early deaths, ranging from suicide to drug od's, seems to point in that direction.
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JaguarCrazy2832


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont see them winning this though, players know the risks
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PurplePeterson


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bet the case would be thrown out since it is Seau's choice to play football and he could have retired early but he did not
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mse326


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kellerman wrote:
mse326 wrote:
Kellerman wrote:
sp6488 wrote:
mse326 wrote:
I'd imagine there is an even bigger hurdle to winning this than whether the NFL knew.

They have to prove that the CTE contributed to his committing suicide. I don't think the general thing that it can lead to it would be enough.


That's what I've been hitting on here.

This is different than standard Company A was negligent. Their negligence caused Defect B that led to the death of Customer/Employee C.

In this case, the argument is being made that the negligence of Company A led Customer/Employee C to act in Way D, which is a much more difficult fact pattern to establish.

Even in cases of sexual assault or bullying, conditions under which there is more obvious malicious intent by the assaulter and much more documentation of the resulting psychological effects on the victim, it is very unlikely/rare for resulting suicide to be pinned on the accused.


It likely depends on how strong CTE can be linked with suicide and/or mental health issues. A quick google search turn up the ''balance of probability'' as a standard of proof in civil cases. If a strong link between CTE and suicide/mental illness can be demonstrated, that would satisfy the ''balance of probability'' when it comes to CTE causing or influencing Seau's suicide.

PS: Perhaps someone with a US law degree could confirm/correct my application of US law?


Balance of Probability is just another way of saying preponderance of the evidence (the latter is the more common term). That is the general burden that says the plaintiff has to prove it is more likely than not.

So, yes, if there is an incredibly strong link between CTE and suicide then it would be enough, but I haven't seen anything that definitive.


I haven't seen any proof either, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did turn up in future research. Something about the combination of brain damage, symptoms similar to dementia, Parkinson's and psychosis, combined with several suicides and several early deaths, ranging from suicide to drug od's, seems to point in that direction.


You have to be careful with links. Links to demntia and neurodegenerative diseases like Parkinsons or Alzheimers are irrelevant. It is about a link to suicide/suicidal thoughts.

Then the studies have to be careful to eliminate other factors. Prolonged drug use whether recreational or PEDs could have an effect.

Given how new this research is, I'd be pretty surprised if science can form that link at the moment. If it is present at all I'd imagine it will take a decade or so before doctors are comfortable coming to that conclusion.

If it's there then it will certainly be useful, but I'd be surprised if they can make that link with any degree of certainty.
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Kellerman


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mse326 wrote:
Kellerman wrote:
mse326 wrote:
Kellerman wrote:
sp6488 wrote:
mse326 wrote:
I'd imagine there is an even bigger hurdle to winning this than whether the NFL knew.

They have to prove that the CTE contributed to his committing suicide. I don't think the general thing that it can lead to it would be enough.


That's what I've been hitting on here.

This is different than standard Company A was negligent. Their negligence caused Defect B that led to the death of Customer/Employee C.

In this case, the argument is being made that the negligence of Company A led Customer/Employee C to act in Way D, which is a much more difficult fact pattern to establish.

Even in cases of sexual assault or bullying, conditions under which there is more obvious malicious intent by the assaulter and much more documentation of the resulting psychological effects on the victim, it is very unlikely/rare for resulting suicide to be pinned on the accused.


It likely depends on how strong CTE can be linked with suicide and/or mental health issues. A quick google search turn up the ''balance of probability'' as a standard of proof in civil cases. If a strong link between CTE and suicide/mental illness can be demonstrated, that would satisfy the ''balance of probability'' when it comes to CTE causing or influencing Seau's suicide.

PS: Perhaps someone with a US law degree could confirm/correct my application of US law?


Balance of Probability is just another way of saying preponderance of the evidence (the latter is the more common term). That is the general burden that says the plaintiff has to prove it is more likely than not.

So, yes, if there is an incredibly strong link between CTE and suicide then it would be enough, but I haven't seen anything that definitive.


I haven't seen any proof either, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did turn up in future research. Something about the combination of brain damage, symptoms similar to dementia, Parkinson's and psychosis, combined with several suicides and several early deaths, ranging from suicide to drug od's, seems to point in that direction.


You have to be careful with links. Links to demntia and neurodegenerative diseases like Parkinsons or Alzheimers are irrelevant. It is about a link to suicide/suicidal thoughts.

Then the studies have to be careful to eliminate other factors. Prolonged drug use whether recreational or PEDs could have an effect.

Given how new this research is, I'd be pretty surprised if science can form that link at the moment. If it is present at all I'd imagine it will take a decade or so before doctors are comfortable coming to that conclusion.

If it's there then it will certainly be useful, but I'd be surprised if they can make that link with any degree of certainty.


I do agree with you, the proof has yet to come. To me, it seems like the dots are there, just a question of whether research can connect them. If I were a betting man, I'd know where I'd put my money.
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skrILL


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In short, good luck to his family. This case won't go very far.
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eagles101


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JaguarCrazy2832 wrote:
I dont see them winning this though, players know the risks


i beleive that is the whole point. they know the risk to there knees, shoulders, or other body parts like that. i believe the case is that they willfully hid the effects of head injuries from players.
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vikingsvikings wrote:

I don't understand most of that, but I can tell it's probably inaccurate.
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Vindicatedxx


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Money whore-s looking to profit off someones death. Just like the family in the Connecticut shooting who is suing the school/city for not providing their child safeness and exposing her (the kid) to a traumatic experience. Nothing but money whore-s in America.......
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Jakuvious


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be incredibly shocked if this suit is successful. For many of the same reasons so many lawsuits against Tobacco companies have proved fruitless. For starters, a "link" or a "contributing factor" is not synonymous with a cause. If his football contributed to his committing suicide, that isn't enough. And even to say that in the first place is incredibly speculatory. You would essentially have to proof that had Seau never played in the NFL, he would not have killed himself. You can't prove that though. Then there's the issue of whether or not the NFL neglected to provide proper information to NFL players. That's another tricky one, because you have to have documented proof that the NFL was aware of the risks, and intentionally and knowingly failed to inform players. That's INCREDIBLY difficult as there are still debates regarding this now. There are, as I said, "links" between football and long term brain damage, but it isn't yet at a point where it can be called a cause, and part of this is because this isn't something easily researchable. The samples are fairly few and far between, and you obviously can't set up experiments to directly study the effects, so it may never really be possible to reach a conclusion of cause/effect. Similar to smoking and lung cancer.

Now, I don't doubt that this will help lead to substantial reform by the NFL. Again, akin to the tobacco companies, which were spared monetary damages in individual cases in lieu of massively reforming their advertising campaigns and doing some of the things that led to crazy warning labels of recent years. So we'll certainly see additions to the rookie symposiums regarding this, medical staff will probably have to treat things very very differently, helmet technology restrictions will likely change with time, and there will be a butt-load more waivers for NFL players to sign.

But are there really grounds for the Seau family to sue? I don't really think so. Especially since there do seem to be reports of Seau having mental health issues dating back to pre-NFL years. Or at least his early NFL years. But the proof of cause just isn't there. Even if you fully believe it, and that's perfectly fine by me, the proof isn't sufficient for scientific and legal purposes. You have to prove that the effects of professional football directly caused the mental issues which in turn directly caused the suicide. That's just too difficult to do. And rightfully so. If the US legal system were to get further opened up to suicide-based lawsuits, we'd have too much stupidity on our hands. At that point, could you justify suing a college for a student's suicide if the student had an existing mental health history of major stress problems, the school was aware of that, and the student supposedly killed themselves as a result of school-related stress? Because that's the kind of loosely-based cause/effect kind of relationships we're looking at here. You're working with a lot of muddy things that don't really belong in the legal system.

Anyway, after that massive wall of text, in summation, suit won't work. Will cause change, but they won't win. And they shouldn't.
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Babylon


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eagles101 wrote:
JaguarCrazy2832 wrote:
I dont see them winning this though, players know the risks


i beleive that is the whole point. they know the risk to there knees, shoulders, or other body parts like that. i believe the case is that they willfully hid the effects of head injuries from players.


Considering through 2009, the NFL's Mild Traumatic Brain Injury Committee itself claimed that no NFL player had experienced chronic brain damage from repeated concussions, you're going to have a really hard time proving the players 'knew the risks'.

Also considering their independent retiree board believed differently enough to award players millions in the 90's for suffering traumatic brain injuries, the NFL will likely have a rather hard time refuting damaging testimony coming from the NFL.
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