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CaliforniaKid7


Joined: 23 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

La_Vader wrote:
I want to see what he does in the new offense. He isnt making much and you can fix fumbles, and he just got unlucky with the injury bug. Do you expect Eric Dickerson with a 3rd string back


Barely 3rd string, we have Stewart too.
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
Professor Oak wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
Professor Oak wrote:
DarthDavis wrote:
Professor Oak wrote:
Incognito is an underrated G in this league. I think from a talent perspective, we could definitely use him on our offensive line. He plays thru the whistle & he plays with aggressiveness. We could use some physicality right now. He's pretty efficient too, & doesn't allow many QB pressures.


He also is consistently one of the most penalized players. If I am not mistaken. Which direction is this team going? Are we trying to saddle up the horses for one last ride or trying to rebuild our beloved franchise.

He had 0 personal fouls last season & had 6 total penalties in 16 games.

He just has a bad reputation still attached to him because of his St. Louis days but he's grown up since then. Not that he doesn't get passionate at times, but that perception of him in the past isn't entirely accurate anymore.

Honestly, I've said this all season & I'll probably get heat for it, but Raider fans really overvalue/overrate Streater. He was a nice UDFA find who got a good amount of playing time because of injuries & was a recipient of a pass heavy offense. He made plenty of mistakes other than a few clutch catches. Will he grow & improve? Probably, but no one knows. Right now we have 2 holes to fill at LG & RG, and you have a solid OG available for trade. That's just my opinion on it.

I don't even know if I'm really a part of this, but I'm just giving my opinion from what I see. I don't even care if he made the Pro Bowl, I just feel he's a solid, proven guard at this point in his career.

I want to be reincarnated as your clone!

Your unemotional approach is totally appreciated. Fix the OL before you crown Streater as the next "Moore" who was supposed to be the next "Rice", etc. Once again the offense is changing and Streater could vanish just like Moore did once he was out of system. Yet it probably won't matter whose receiving the ball when the QB is on IR once again.

Thanks. I think me & you see eye to eye a lot since I've been on this forum. Laughing

WR's like Streater are a dime in a dozen in comparison to solid G's who play like Incognito. People just don't like the guy because he plays tough & with an edge.

Everybody knows the battle is won/lost in the trenches. This team has evaded correctly addressing the OL for years, yet want to add pieces in other areas. Personally, I don't get it, but I guess people have different opinions.

For what it's worth: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/28/ranking-the-2012-offensive-lines/2/


I think everybody wants to improve both lines.
But we're re-building, right? Trading a young player for a 30 year old guy on the final year of his contract isn't what i'd call re-buidling.


OL can play a lot longer than skill position players and still be effective. Adding a Pro Bowler in Incognito actually free both Veldheer AND Wiz up to compensate for one less weak link. In the past Veldheer has been susceptible to inside speed rusher. Incognito could shore that up by chip blocking.

So we're rebuilding and we start by building around an UDFA WR? That's paying the cable bill before the power bill. At this time we have no idea how Streater will fit into the old/new vertical offense. But we do know that Incognito is a solid PBS LG that's worth taking a chance on that's actually affordable.
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

La_Vader wrote:
I want to see what he does in the new offense.


Probably get hurt. That's my guess.
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JTagg7754


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:

I think everybody wants to improve both lines.
But we're re-building, right? Trading a young player for a 30 year old guy on the final year of his contract isn't what i'd call re-buidling.


OL can play a lot longer than skill position players and still be effective. Adding a Pro Bowler in Incognito actually free both Veldheer AND Wiz up to compensate for one less weak link. In the past Veldheer has been susceptible to inside speed rusher. Incognito could shore that up by chip blocking.

So we're rebuilding and we start by building around an UDFA WR? That's paying the cable bill before the power bill. At this time we have no idea how Streater will fit into the old/new vertical offense. But we do know that Incognito is a solid PBS LG that's worth taking a chance on that's actually affordable.


It's a shame you two both make good points.
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DarthDavis


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the Incognito trade.

The reason they want Streater is he has a cheap contract and can perform at a decent level with room for growth. The reason they want to dump Incognito is he has a high price contract for a low skill position and as ODB36 points out its his last year of a contract. This is a major win for the dolphins. If they are interested in our WR's why not take DHB or Moore? I personally like Streater more then both. Moore should have decent market value, so why wouldn't they want him? Because they would have to give something up in order to get him. With Streater they are giving nothing up except a low skill position in an overpriced final year deal vs an up and comer with everything to prove coming of a solid rookie season as a UDFA.

Another staff member pointed out that UDFA WR's are a dime a dozen. I think UDFA WR's that produce and show as much promise as Streater has are just the opposite. Guards are a dime a dozen, its almost the easiest position in the NFL to not mess up. When tackles are not good enough, where do they go? Inside at Guard. Sorry guys but we can move the franchise in a better direction. Why not just pencil in Bergstrom at LG, he had his rookie year. Whats wrong with that as a move?
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthDavis wrote:
On the Incognito trade.

The reason they want Streater is he has a cheap contract and can perform at a decent level with room for growth. The reason they want to dump Incognito is he has a high price contract for a low skill position and as ODB36 points out its his last year of a contract. This is a major win for the dolphins. If they are interested in our WR's why not take DHB or Moore? I personally like Streater more then both. Moore should have decent market value, so why wouldn't they want him? Because they would have to give something up in order to get him. With Streater they are giving nothing up except a low skill position in an overpriced final year deal vs an up and comer with everything to prove coming of a solid rookie season as a UDFA.

Another staff member pointed out that UDFA WR's are a dime a dozen. I think UDFA WR's that produce and show as much promise as Streater has are just the opposite. Guards are a dime a dozen, its almost the easiest position in the NFL to not mess up. When tackles are not good enough, where do they go? Inside at Guard. Sorry guys but we can move the franchise in a better direction. Why not just pencil in Bergstrom at LG, he had his rookie year. Whats wrong with that as a move?


The Raiders are not the Dolphins and viceversa from this standpoint this is a balanced trade. While I do not hold OGs in high regard (preach what you're saying to the Warmack crowd btw) $4M is, iirc, exactly what the Raiders were paying a journeyman RG in Brisiel. The Raiders MUST rebuild the trenches above all else.

As far as I'm concerned Bergs has shown us nothing that he can handle the OG let alone switch sides. It's FAR easier moving left to right. Evidenced by his inability to beat out either Carlisle or Brisiel, who turned out to the weakest link. Personally, I like both Nix and Hurd and I'm comfortable with either winning a TC battle.

This is a game and ultimately you will see how inflated contracts get in FA, $4M is really pennies. I know Oakland is a bluecollar town but we spend a lot of time counting other people's money. $4M is nothing if the Raiders could go ONE season without losing their QB to injury.

Not that I'm hoping for it but I could easily see Streater and Criner lost a new system that doesn't fit their strengths just as easily as DHB & Moore disappeared last season.
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DarthDavis


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
DarthDavis wrote:
On the Incognito trade.

The reason they want Streater is he has a cheap contract and can perform at a decent level with room for growth. The reason they want to dump Incognito is he has a high price contract for a low skill position and as ODB36 points out its his last year of a contract. This is a major win for the dolphins. If they are interested in our WR's why not take DHB or Moore? I personally like Streater more then both. Moore should have decent market value, so why wouldn't they want him? Because they would have to give something up in order to get him. With Streater they are giving nothing up except a low skill position in an overpriced final year deal vs an up and comer with everything to prove coming of a solid rookie season as a UDFA.

Another staff member pointed out that UDFA WR's are a dime a dozen. I think UDFA WR's that produce and show as much promise as Streater has are just the opposite. Guards are a dime a dozen, its almost the easiest position in the NFL to not mess up. When tackles are not good enough, where do they go? Inside at Guard. Sorry guys but we can move the franchise in a better direction. Why not just pencil in Bergstrom at LG, he had his rookie year. Whats wrong with that as a move?


The Raiders are not the Dolphins and viceversa from this standpoint this is a balanced trade. While I do not hold OGs in high regard (preach what you're saying to the Warmack crowd btw) $4M is, iirc, exactly what the Raiders were paying a journeyman RG in Brisiel. The Raiders MUST rebuild the trenches above all else.

As far as I'm concerned Bergs has shown us nothing that he can handle the OG let alone switch sides. It's FAR easier moving left to right. Evidenced by his inability to beat out either Carlisle or Brisiel, who turned out to the weakest link. Personally, I like both Nix and Hurd and I'm comfortable with either winning a TC battle.

This is a game and ultimately you will see how inflated contracts get in FA, $4M is really pennies. I know Oakland is a bluecollar town but we spend a lot of time counting other people's money. $4M is nothing if the Raiders could go ONE season without losing their QB to injury.

Not that I'm hoping for it but I could easily see Streater and Criner lost a new system that doesn't fit their strengths just as easily as DHB & Moore disappeared last season.


Ya good point on the contract in FFMD. Granted Bergs was a rookie last year in a new system as well. Carlisle and Brisiel were savvy ZBS veterans, or were supposed to be. Nix and Hurd I agree have potential, but Bergs was a pretty well played draft pick, solid all round technique and smart kid. He played as our 3rd Tackle in some of those XL packages. I mean between the names above mentioned we have 3 potential youngster OG's, with Bergstrom originally being a tackle prospect.
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DarthDavis


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Took a glance back to FFMDI 2010

OT Trent Williams
DE Carlos Dunlap
LB NaVarro Bowman
NT Cam Thomas
OG John Jerry

FFMDII

OT Brian Bulaga
OG Mike Iupati
NT Torrell Troup
OT Jason Fox
LB Pat Angerer

That first one was pretty impressive. The second isn't even that bad aside from the Bulaga flop but there was sheeeesh for picks at that point.
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CaliforniaKid7


Joined: 23 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthDavis wrote:
Took a glance back to FFMDI 2010

OT Trent Williams
DE Carlos Dunlap
LB NaVarro Bowman
NT Cam Thomas
OG John Jerry

FFMDII

OT Brian Bulaga
OG Mike Iupati
NT Torrell Troup
OT Jason Fox
LB Pat Angerer

That first one was pretty impressive. The second isn't even that bad aside from the Bulaga flop but there was sheeeesh for picks at that point.


A LB core with Bowman and Angerer would
Be nice. Dunlap is a nice player.
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
Professor Oak wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
Professor Oak wrote:
DarthDavis wrote:
Professor Oak wrote:
Incognito is an underrated G in this league. I think from a talent perspective, we could definitely use him on our offensive line. He plays thru the whistle & he plays with aggressiveness. We could use some physicality right now. He's pretty efficient too, & doesn't allow many QB pressures.


He also is consistently one of the most penalized players. If I am not mistaken. Which direction is this team going? Are we trying to saddle up the horses for one last ride or trying to rebuild our beloved franchise.

He had 0 personal fouls last season & had 6 total penalties in 16 games.

He just has a bad reputation still attached to him because of his St. Louis days but he's grown up since then. Not that he doesn't get passionate at times, but that perception of him in the past isn't entirely accurate anymore.

Honestly, I've said this all season & I'll probably get heat for it, but Raider fans really overvalue/overrate Streater. He was a nice UDFA find who got a good amount of playing time because of injuries & was a recipient of a pass heavy offense. He made plenty of mistakes other than a few clutch catches. Will he grow & improve? Probably, but no one knows. Right now we have 2 holes to fill at LG & RG, and you have a solid OG available for trade. That's just my opinion on it.

I don't even know if I'm really a part of this, but I'm just giving my opinion from what I see. I don't even care if he made the Pro Bowl, I just feel he's a solid, proven guard at this point in his career.

I want to be reincarnated as your clone!

Your unemotional approach is totally appreciated. Fix the OL before you crown Streater as the next "Moore" who was supposed to be the next "Rice", etc. Once again the offense is changing and Streater could vanish just like Moore did once he was out of system. Yet it probably won't matter whose receiving the ball when the QB is on IR once again.

Thanks. I think me & you see eye to eye a lot since I've been on this forum. Laughing

WR's like Streater are a dime in a dozen in comparison to solid G's who play like Incognito. People just don't like the guy because he plays tough & with an edge.

Everybody knows the battle is won/lost in the trenches. This team has evaded correctly addressing the OL for years, yet want to add pieces in other areas. Personally, I don't get it, but I guess people have different opinions.

For what it's worth: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/28/ranking-the-2012-offensive-lines/2/


I think everybody wants to improve both lines.
But we're re-building, right? Trading a young player for a 30 year old guy on the final year of his contract isn't what i'd call re-buidling.


OL can play a lot longer than skill position players and still be effective. Adding a Pro Bowler in Incognito actually free both Veldheer AND Wiz up to compensate for one less weak link. In the past Veldheer has been susceptible to inside speed rusher. Incognito could shore that up by chip blocking.

So we're rebuilding and we start by building around an UDFA WR? That's paying the cable bill before the power bill. At this time we have no idea how Streater will fit into the old/new vertical offense. But we do know that Incognito is a solid PBS LG that's worth taking a chance on that's actually affordable.


He was a Pro Bowl aternate for the first time in his 8 year career.

We're obviously not building around an UDFA WR. We're building with players who can be part of a long term plan. All i know is Incognito might bounce after one year. Maybe he would re-sign, that's far from a guarantee though.
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Play4Blood


Joined: 03 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
I got a minor offer to vote on.

Taiwan Jones to the Seahawks for a 7th (#195)?


STer aren't hard to find. I'd let them have the little fugger unless the chatter about moving him back to CB is true. If it is, I'd keep him just to see what happens.


DarthDavis wrote:
"RDE Frostee Rucker and OLB Craig Robertson for Huff"

Suggestion from Browns rep.


lolno


DarthDavis wrote:
"4th rounder and 6th rounder for McFadden?"

Another team rep from the Bengals. We could obviously do better. I personally really like Marcel Reece to the point of getting adventurous with the idea of trading McFadden. Even though he is a legitimate cornerstone for a franchise.



I'd consider this. I don't believe McFadden will be here beyond this season, so getting something for him while we can makes a ton of sense. That 4th round pick could easily land us a bellcow RB, or give us ammunition to move up into Rd2 for someone we like.
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Play4Blood


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Incognito, but I don't like the idea of bringing in a pricey veteran when our two major needs right now are cap space and long term roster solutions. This trade would afford us neither.

I give Berg the LG gig and pencil in Nix and Parsons at RG while we wait to see who's available in the draft.
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Play4Blood


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone dangling Palmer in front of QB needy teams? I'd easily let him go for a half decent offer.
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So i guess we're gonna use our one re-sign on Desmond Bryant?

Here are some contracts we could use as references, imo:

Signed in 2011
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/ray-mcdonald/
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/seattle-seahawks/brandon-mebane/
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/washington-redskins/stephen-bowen/

Signed in 2012
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/st.-louis-rams/kendall-langford/
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/washington-redskins/adam-carriker/

Knowing that, what kind of contract would you offer him?
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Rolni


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
So i guess we're gonna use our one re-sign on Desmond Bryant?

Here are some contracts we could use as references, imo:

Signed in 2011
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/ray-mcdonald/
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/seattle-seahawks/brandon-mebane/
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/washington-redskins/stephen-bowen/

Signed in 2012
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/st.-louis-rams/kendall-langford/
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/washington-redskins/adam-carriker/

Knowing that, what kind of contract would you offer him?


I was just about to post my suggestion for his deal anyway Smile

5 years 25M with 5M signing bonus.

2013: 3.000.000 salary + 1.000.000 signing bonus = 4.000.000 total
2014: 5.000.000 salary + 1.000.000 signing bonus = 6.000.000 total
2015: 5.000.000 salary + 1.000.000 signing bonus = 6.000.000 total
2016: 6.000.000 salary + 1.000.000 signing bonus = 7.000.000 total
2017: 6.000.000 salary + 1.000.000 signing bonus = 7.000.000 total
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