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Randy Moss...Just 2 full years with a HOF QB...Brady
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there really a reason for Moss conversations anymore? Just seems to always to turn into the same ridiculousness.
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Mossburg


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
Is there really a reason for Moss conversations anymore? Just seems to always to turn into the same ridiculousness.


Not enough Moss conversations IMO. If people gathered and discussed Randy Moss instead of fighting wars the world would be a better place.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I've really had enough of proving my point on Culpepper.

He didn't need Moss in 2004.


What point is that? That he had a good stretch that year against the league's worst defenses? Culpepper couldn't beat any good defenses WITH Moss. There's a reason why the Eagles owned the Vikings in that era. Not really surprising to see what happened when he didn't have him for an extended period.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mossburg wrote:
Quote:
I've really had enough of proving my point on Culpepper.

He didn't need Moss in 2004.


What point is that? That he had a good stretch that year against the league's worst defenses? Culpepper couldn't beat any good defenses WITH Moss. There's a reason why the Eagles owned the Vikings in that era. Not really surprising to see what happened when he didn't have him for an extended period.


He threw 7 TDs to 2 ints over a 4 week period? Or are we just going to try and use a different year as justification?

Especially considering that Culpepper was always an extremely streaky passer and was prone to some terrible games. That 2005 season looks horrible statistically but Culpepper threw 0 TDs to 8 ints over the first 2 weeks. He rebounded to throw 6 TDs to 4 ints over the next 4 games.

It's really not out of the realm of possibilities that his year would have ended up much better than it appears it would have statistically. Not to say that losing Moss didn't hurt, he's a top 3 WR of all time and was a key component in that run and gun offense. But even with Moss, Culpepper threw 18 TDs to 23 ints in 2002. As I said, was always streaky.

But trying to denigrate Culpepper to prop Moss up has never made sense to me. Culpepper was the perfect QB to take advantage of Moss's skill-set and when he was on, he was one of the best in the league. Kind of like Brett Favre in the 2000s.
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But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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Mossburg


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
Mossburg wrote:
Quote:
I've really had enough of proving my point on Culpepper.

He didn't need Moss in 2004.


What point is that? That he had a good stretch that year against the league's worst defenses? Culpepper couldn't beat any good defenses WITH Moss. There's a reason why the Eagles owned the Vikings in that era. Not really surprising to see what happened when he didn't have him for an extended period.


He threw 7 TDs to 2 ints over a 4 week period? Or are we just going to try and use a different year as justification?


Look who they played in that stretch. Colts, Titans, and Packers, 3 of the worst defense in the NFL. Also played the Giants who weren't really good then either, Culpepper had a bad game. Moss had something ridiculous like 9 TDs in 5 and a half games before he went down.

Quote:

It's really not out of the realm of possibilities that his year would have ended up much better than it appears it would have statistically. Not to say that losing Moss didn't hurt, he's a top 3 WR of all time and was a key component in that run and gun offense. But even with Moss, Culpepper threw 18 TDs to 23 ints in 2002. As I said, was always streaky.


It was a bad year for the whole team. Not just Culpepper.

Quote:
Especially considering that Culpepper was always an extremely streaky passer and was prone to some terrible games. That 2005 season looks horrible statistically but Culpepper threw 0 TDs to 8 ints over the first 2 weeks. He rebounded to throw 6 TDs to 4 ints over the next 4 games.


"Rebounded" is putting it lightly. Brad Johnson was a better QB at that point.

Quote:
But trying to denigrate Culpepper to prop Moss up has never made sense to me. Culpepper was the perfect QB to take advantage of Moss's skill-set and when he was on, he was one of the best in the league. Kind of like Brett Favre in the 2000s.


There's a reason why Todd Bauman and Gus Frerrotte could come in as career backups and look like pro bowl QBs. That's the same reason why Culpepper looked like an MVP.

Too bad Culpepper was never "on" against quality defenses especially at the end of the year when the team needed him most.

FYI, I am not one of those fans who rode Culpepper's jock while he was a Viking and now bash him because it's convenient. I always called him out for playing poorly against better defenses, and had many debates in the Vikings forum with Vike fans who thought he was da shiz. I can still remember some fans arguing how the Vikes will be better without Moss because now they can spread the ball around and it will be harder for defenses to stop. Laughing
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mossburg wrote:
There's a reason why Todd Bauman and Gus Frerrotte could come in as career backups and look like pro bowl QBs. That's the same reason why Culpepper looked like an MVP.

Too bad Culpepper was never "on" against quality defenses especially at the end of the year when the team needed him most.

FYI, I am not one of those fans who rode Culpepper's jock while he was a Viking and now bash him because it's convenient. I always called him out for playing poorly against better defenses, and had many debates in the Vikings forum with Vike fans who thought he was da shiz. I can still remember some fans arguing how the Vikes will be better without Moss because now they can spread the ball around and it will be harder for defenses to stop. Laughing


That's not exactly true.

And that reason would be?
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Mossburg


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
Mossburg wrote:
There's a reason why Todd Bauman and Gus Frerrotte could come in as career backups and look like pro bowl QBs. That's the same reason why Culpepper looked like an MVP.

Too bad Culpepper was never "on" against quality defenses especially at the end of the year when the team needed him most.

FYI, I am not one of those fans who rode Culpepper's jock while he was a Viking and now bash him because it's convenient. I always called him out for playing poorly against better defenses, and had many debates in the Vikings forum with Vike fans who thought he was da shiz. I can still remember some fans arguing how the Vikes will be better without Moss because now they can spread the ball around and it will be harder for defenses to stop. Laughing


That's not exactly true.


It was the case A LOT more often than not. All of the games at the end when the Vikes needed a win to get in the playoffs (Arizona, Washington), Culpepper always struggled. Always struggled against the Eagles. Always Struggled against the Bucs. The Bears he played pretty good at home, but always sucked on the road. Was always a beast against the Lions and Saints, and the Packers towards the end of his Vikings tenure during the Ahmad Carroll era.

Quote:
And that reason would be?


They were members of Straight Cash Inc.
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xjayex


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since this is getting pretty abstract, I'll add:

Jerry Rice never quit, never gave up and kept trying to be the best.

Randy Moss... well... quit, gave up and never tried to be the best. He just relied on his physical talent and eventually it failed him.

That's the difference between the best ever and really good.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mossburg wrote:


They were members of Straight Cash Inc.


Is that why the Eagles got so much production out of their backups? Having Moss certainly helped A LOT but you gotta levy the same complaints that you did against Culpepper, they also each up a huge game against a bad defense(and Moss had a big part in it).

But the system and talent around them certainly helped...and as I said, Moss was part of it. But if Moss was able to turn those guys into monsters, why couldn't he do that in Oakland?
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Mossburg


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xjayex wrote:
Since this is getting pretty abstract, I'll add:

Jerry Rice never quit, never gave up and kept trying to be the best.

Randy Moss... well... quit, gave up and never tried to be the best. He just relied on his physical talent and eventually it failed him.

That's the difference between the best ever and really good.


Yea, but Moss was much better than "really good".

There will never be another Jerry Rice not just because of the work ethic or talent factor, but because of the luck factor. Rice's career would not be as epic if he landed with a crap franchise like the Cardinals and wasted away his prime years. Rice's career is so unique not just because he was so amazing, but he was so lucky to not just spend his prime with 1 hall of famer, but with another one who replaced him. The odds of a WR with his work ethic, talent, and luck to be playing with such a amazing QBs is slim to none. The man was just as lucky as he was good, and that's why there will probably never be a career like he had. Just glancing at his playoff and superbowl records is ridiculous.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mossburg wrote:
xjayex wrote:
Since this is getting pretty abstract, I'll add:

Jerry Rice never quit, never gave up and kept trying to be the best.

Randy Moss... well... quit, gave up and never tried to be the best. He just relied on his physical talent and eventually it failed him.

That's the difference between the best ever and really good.


Yea, but Moss was much better than "really good".

There will never be another Jerry Rice not just because of the work ethic or talent factor, but because of the luck factor. Rice's career would not be as epic if he landed with a crap franchise like the Cardinals and wasted away his prime years. Rice's career is so unique not just because he was so amazing, but he was so lucky to not just spend his prime with 1 hall of famer, but with another one who replaced him. The odds of a WR with his work ethic, talent, and luck to be playing with such a amazing QBs is slim to none. The man was just as lucky as he was good, and that's why there will probably never be a career like he had. Just glancing at his playoff and superbowl records is ridiculous.


Quote:
In 1986, Rices second year in the league, Jeff Kemp starts 6 games. Results:

6rec 157yds 1td
7rec 120yds 0td
3rec 76yds 2td
6rec 172yds 3td
7rec 144yds 2td
3rec 58yds 0td

Who was Jeff Kemp? Jeff Kemp was an undrafted QB out of Dartmouth that played for 4 teams over 10 years, had a career comp% of 52% with 39 TDs and 40 interceptions to his credit.

You don't have any idea how good Rice was. Rice had Montana for 8 games that year. He finished the season with 83 receptions, 1570 yards* and 16 TDs (15 receptions* plus one rushing). He had an average per reception of 18+ yards. Was also voted to the pro bowl and all pro. In his second year. With garbage throwing the ball half the season. Of those season totals, 820 yards and 9 TDs came with crap under center. Yes, that's a 100yd 1td per game average.

No one questions Rice's legitimacy as a Hall of Famer. But when it comes to Rice's ultimate legacy, the question is whether he was one of the greatest players ever, or the greatest player ever. And there will be some who think Rice's otherworldly numbers (aka Parts I and II) need to be discounted because he benefited so much from playing with Joe Montana and Steve Young for the majority of his career. Clearly, Rice was fortunate to play with Montana and Young. No one disputes that. The question is: by how much? That's an impossible question to answer, but what we can do is look at the seasons during which Rice was working with a non-Montana/Young QB for a substantial amount of time:

* In Rice's rookie year, Montana missed one game. Matt Cavanaugh started against the Eagles, who had one of the best pass defenses in the league. Rice caught 3 passes for 71 yards and a score.

* In 1986, Rice's second season, Montana suffered a severe back injury in week one that nearly ended his career. Jeff Kemp (6) and Mike Moroski (2) started half of the season before Montana came back. In those eight games, Rice caught 40 passes for 820 yards and 9 TDs. Over sixteen games, 80 receptions, 1640 yards and 18 TDs would have been the most impressive season by any receiver in the league. Excluding Rice (who had 86-1570-15), Stanley Morgan had the second most receiving yards (1491) and Wesley Walker was second in receiving touchdowns (12). And yes, to those observant readers, Rice's numbers that season were better without a gimpy Montana than with one.

* Montana and Young would start every non-strike game over the next four seasons, so let's skip ahead to 1991. Montana had a season-ending elbow injury in the pre-season and Young injured his knee in mid-season. Steve Bono started six games for the 49ers, and Rice caught 33 passes for 415 yards and four scores playing with Bono. After losing their first start under Bono, the 49ers would win their next five games. Pro-rated over 16 games, Rice (88 receptions, 1107 yards, 10.7 TDs) would have ranked 4th, 8th and 5th in receptions, receiving yards and receiving TDs with Bono.

* In 1995, Young went down again, and this time Elvis Grbac took over. In five starts, Rice put up an absurd 31-550-4, for a pro-rated 99-1760-12.8 (actual 122-1848-15). Those 1760 receiving yards would be good enough for #2 all-time on the single-season list.

* Young missed four more starts in 1996, with Grbac again picking up the slack. Rice scored in every game, and caught 27 passes for 322 yards and 5 scores. The pro-rated Rice would have led the league with his 108 catches and ranked 4th with his 1288 yards; his 20 TDs would outpace the #2 man by six scores. The actual Rice had 108-1254-8.

So for 5 seasons, Grbac (9), Kemp (6), Bono (6), Moroski (2) and Cavanugh (1) starting 24 games for the 49ers. In exactly a year and a half's worth of games, Rice caught 134 passes for 2,177 yards and 23 TDs, and ran for one score as well. That's an average season of 89 catches, 1451 receiving yards and 16 touchdowns, or roughly the career best season for nearly every WR who has ever played the game. And, of course, only 25% of those games came during what we would typically call a wide receiver's prime. Eighteen of those 24 games that he played without Montana or Young came during Rice's first or second season, or when he was 33- or 34-years old. In '95 and '96, playing at an age when most receivers start slowing down, catching passes from Elvis Grbac, and playing with Derek Loville and Terry Kirby at RB, Rice put up numbers that could arguably pass for the best season of Cris Carter's or Steve Largent's career.


Not to say that Rice wasn't lucky and he obviously wouldn't have had the same post-season success on a bad team but he would have been ridiculously productive anywhere he went and imo would have been considered the GOAT no matter the NFL team he played for.
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Mossburg


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
Mossburg wrote:


They were members of Straight Cash Inc.


Is that why the Eagles got so much production out of their backups? Having Moss certainly helped A LOT but you gotta levy the same complaints that you did against Culpepper, they also each up a huge game against a bad defense(and Moss had a big part in it).

But the system and talent around them certainly helped...and as I said, Moss was part of it. But if Moss was able to turn those guys into monsters, why couldn't he do that in Oakland?


He did. Look at Collins' production in the 1st half of the season before that team tanked.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Not to say that Rice wasn't lucky and he obviously wouldn't have had the same post-season success on a bad team but he would have been ridiculously productive anywhere he went and imo would have been considered the GOAT no matter the NFL team he played for.


I think it would at worst be debatable, probably not a given fact as it is today.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mossburg wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
Mossburg wrote:


They were members of Straight Cash Inc.


Is that why the Eagles got so much production out of their backups? Having Moss certainly helped A LOT but you gotta levy the same complaints that you did against Culpepper, they also each up a huge game against a bad defense(and Moss had a big part in it).

But the system and talent around them certainly helped...and as I said, Moss was part of it. But if Moss was able to turn those guys into monsters, why couldn't he do that in Oakland?


He did. Look at Collins' production in the 1st half of the season before that team tanked.


Look at the defenses that they faced. 0 were ranked in the top 10 in PPG. Goes back to your argument against Culpepper...

Mossburg wrote:
Quote:
Not to say that Rice wasn't lucky and he obviously wouldn't have had the same post-season success on a bad team but he would have been ridiculously productive anywhere he went and imo would have been considered the GOAT no matter the NFL team he played for.


I think it would at worst be debatable, probably not a given fact as it is today.


I think the fact that you have to go there speaks volumes. Moss certainly wasn't in that situation except for 2 years in Oakland...and he didn't produce well.
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But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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Mossburg


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Look at the defenses that they faced. 0 were ranked in the top 10 in PPG. Goes back to your argument against Culpepper...


I don't see how.

The Culpepper argument goes something like this.

Culpepper played 6 years with Moss and was damn near MVP level in most of them. But it's obvious that he didn't really need Moss, because look at this neat little 4 game stretch in that 6 years career. See? TEH PROOPHZZZ....but make sure you don't look at what happens after those 6 years, that is not teh relevance!!!! Dat 4 game stretch doe...

Collins at least played at a level he never played before for a while more than half a season. I don't see how that compares to the Cullpepper thing, regardless of what defenses they faced. Collins was never even a great QB, Culpepper was making most top 3 lists.

So either way, Randy Moss couldn't help Kerry and Daunte help read defenses better. I guess we can hold that against him.
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